LindaC3
Posts: 508
Posts: 508
Posted:
Good eve group........ I am trying to gather different opinions as to what defines a Family with regards to rights and privleges of membership in an HOA......All comments appreciated...Thanks bunches LindaC
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Defintion of Family
Started by LindaC3 • 11 replies • 1668 views
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JM2
Posts: 428
Posts: 428
Posted:
Hi Linda:
I've never seen the term defined in a set of CC&R's. To my mind, "Family" with regard to the HOA would be defined by the owners and those living in their household - or - the tenant and those living in the tenant's household. It would include such people as chilren away at school most of the year but still considering the "family house" as their primary legal residence.
I wouldn't include such people as cousins/uncles & aunts/parents/grandparents who might be living elsewhere; they would be guests. For the most part, those with rights and privledges are those who are living there. It may be a question when a non-resident owner leases the house, whether both the renter and the owner would have privledges, or not; my tendency would be that the owner assigns the "membership privledges" to the renter, except of course for the luxuries of voting and paying assessments & fines...
When a "family" suddenly includes 15 non-resident "cousins" who want to use the pool....well, if it looks & smells like a skunk...it's a skunk.
Good luck on whatever you're dealing with that raises the question; I'm sure that there will be unhappy owners, no matter which way your board decides.
J. Patrick Moore, CMCA
I've never seen the term defined in a set of CC&R's. To my mind, "Family" with regard to the HOA would be defined by the owners and those living in their household - or - the tenant and those living in the tenant's household. It would include such people as chilren away at school most of the year but still considering the "family house" as their primary legal residence.
I wouldn't include such people as cousins/uncles & aunts/parents/grandparents who might be living elsewhere; they would be guests. For the most part, those with rights and privledges are those who are living there. It may be a question when a non-resident owner leases the house, whether both the renter and the owner would have privledges, or not; my tendency would be that the owner assigns the "membership privledges" to the renter, except of course for the luxuries of voting and paying assessments & fines...
When a "family" suddenly includes 15 non-resident "cousins" who want to use the pool....well, if it looks & smells like a skunk...it's a skunk.
Good luck on whatever you're dealing with that raises the question; I'm sure that there will be unhappy owners, no matter which way your board decides.
J. Patrick Moore, CMCA
BradD2
Posts: 415
Posts: 415
Posted:
The only "family" reference I have seen in governing documents is to state that the homes in the association must be used as single family dwellings. We have a home with 6-8 cars out front that I have considered investigating as a means to clear that up.
In the policies that I am defining for our community the only one with rights and that can request things is the one on the deed. Anyone can run for the board, but other than that the Owner is the point of contact and the one everything is applied against.
In the policies that I am defining for our community the only one with rights and that can request things is the one on the deed. Anyone can run for the board, but other than that the Owner is the point of contact and the one everything is applied against.
LindaC3
Posts: 508
Posts: 508
Posted:
J.Patrick....Our CC&R'S actually has a definition of Family-- means a natural person,his or her spouse,the children.grandchildren,parents and the grandparents of each of their spouses...
They are saying that our rule of Privileges applies to all that are defined as Family.... I tried to explain to them that if they are not an OWNER AS LISTED ON DEED then they are not a Member entitled to the same rights and privileges as Members.They say our rule lets family do everything but vote at Members Meetings. Now how chaotic is this...So this is the reason for my post...Thanks for all the help with this..LindaC
They are saying that our rule of Privileges applies to all that are defined as Family.... I tried to explain to them that if they are not an OWNER AS LISTED ON DEED then they are not a Member entitled to the same rights and privileges as Members.They say our rule lets family do everything but vote at Members Meetings. Now how chaotic is this...So this is the reason for my post...Thanks for all the help with this..LindaC
BradD2
Posts: 415
Posts: 415
Posted:
Linda, look at the definitions of Member and Parcel Owner in Florida Statute 720
http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0720/ch0720.htm
That is the definition within the Florida Statute only. Read the definitions section of your covenants, by-laws and articles of incorporation. The definition in each may be different and the definition in one of those documents does not apply to another document. Each document must have their owner definition of terms. That should make it very easy to see if they are complying.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0720/ch0720.htm
That is the definition within the Florida Statute only. Read the definitions section of your covenants, by-laws and articles of incorporation. The definition in each may be different and the definition in one of those documents does not apply to another document. Each document must have their owner definition of terms. That should make it very easy to see if they are complying.
BradP
Posts: 2,548
Posts: 2,548
Posted:
Linda:
I think a definition of family is whoever takes up full-time residency in the home. Each situation is unique and I think you need to be flexible. Don't shoehorn yourself into thinking a family is just a husband-wife and kids. Maybe grandma or grandpa live their full-time. Maybe they have custody of nieces/nephews. Maybe cousin has moved in to go to school. Or maybe their kids best friend wants to finish school their last year of school there instead of moving with mom and dad away. Each situation is unique, it is hard to tell but if they live in the house more than 50% of the time I consider them family.
I think a definition of family is whoever takes up full-time residency in the home. Each situation is unique and I think you need to be flexible. Don't shoehorn yourself into thinking a family is just a husband-wife and kids. Maybe grandma or grandpa live their full-time. Maybe they have custody of nieces/nephews. Maybe cousin has moved in to go to school. Or maybe their kids best friend wants to finish school their last year of school there instead of moving with mom and dad away. Each situation is unique, it is hard to tell but if they live in the house more than 50% of the time I consider them family.
PaulM
Posts: 1,325
Posts: 1,325
Posted:
Linda:
You have not mentioned the situation in your community and why you are asking what defines a 'family'. If you are speaking about rights and privileges: voting is usually reserved for the owner/name on the deed, most often one vote per unit.
Privileges of the family re amenities is another story. For instance, if you offer use of a pool, it may be for 2-parents & children; however, if cousins come to visit, IMO they should be under 'guest' pass, if offered.
Though they may be 'blood', they are not the immediate residents.
Can be a touchy situation.
You have not mentioned the situation in your community and why you are asking what defines a 'family'. If you are speaking about rights and privileges: voting is usually reserved for the owner/name on the deed, most often one vote per unit.
Privileges of the family re amenities is another story. For instance, if you offer use of a pool, it may be for 2-parents & children; however, if cousins come to visit, IMO they should be under 'guest' pass, if offered.
Though they may be 'blood', they are not the immediate residents.
Can be a touchy situation.
LindaC3
Posts: 508
Posts: 508
Posted:
BradP--- you are correct.... I feel that it needs to be anyone who customarily resides in the residence...However the rule they have written now allows for all those defined as FAMILY to have all the same rights of Membership regardless of whether they live here or not.... it even allows for them to grant GATE CLEARANCE...........I have a problem with that...Let's say your brother comes to visit you- the gate people let him in because he is FAMILY...You aren't home...He calls all his friends to tell them to come partay....he is allowed as the rule is now written to grant gate clearance to all these people...That's a serious problem for me at least......I don't want everyone who is my kinfolk LOL by virtue of all havig access to MY PROPERTY................Thats why this rule violayes in my opinion my rights to Membership as afforded to myself and my husband by virtue of deed...These other people have no vested financial interest in this place but yet they can attend BOD Meetings have input but just can't vote.....BIG PROBLEM...... Now my sister who lives here also when our Mother comes to live here with her will be filing a declaration of domicile stating this is her full tiem residence... I have stated to the BOD that when my FAMILY comes to visit --- they are GUESTS not members...notice the small m ...Capital M is reserved for Members or owners as listed on Deeds.. LindaC
LindaC3
Posts: 508
Posts: 508
Posted:
BradP--- you are correct.... I feel that it needs to be anyone who customarily resides in the residence...However the rule they have written now allows for all those defined as FAMILY to have all the same rights of Membership regardless of whether they live here or not.... it even allows for them to grant GATE CLEARANCE...........I have a problem with that...Let's say your brother comes to visit you- the gate people let him in because he is FAMILY...You aren't home...He calls all his friends to tell them to come partay....he is allowed as the rule is now written to grant gate clearance to all these people...That's a serious problem for me at least......I don't want everyone who is my kinfolk LOL by virtue of all havig access to MY PROPERTY................Thats why this rule violayes in my opinion my rights to Membership as afforded to myself and my husband by virtue of deed...These other people have no vested financial interest in this place but yet they can attend BOD Meetings have input but just can't vote.....BIG PROBLEM...... Now my sister who lives here also when our Mother comes to live here with her will be filing a declaration of domicile stating this is her full tiem residence... I have stated to the BOD that when my FAMILY comes to visit --- they are GUESTS not members...notice the small m ...Capital M is reserved for Members or owners as listed on Deeds.. LindaC
LindaC3
Posts: 508
Posts: 508
Posted:
I apologize for all my typing errors...all this is giving me a headache and blurring my vision,,,,LOL
thanks for any and all comments on this LindaC
thanks for any and all comments on this LindaC
LindaC3
Posts: 508
Posts: 508
Posted:
PaulM... Let me post the rule so maybe you all could help decipher it for me and help !!! Even though I was removed from my position on the Appeals Commitee the BOD made a motion and it passed that I would rewrite this rule for them...It seems that I was the ONLY person who cared enough to make comments on this issue... Shame more people do not get involved with the daily ruling making process... They just live in this clouded world the the BOD says it-- So it must be true.....I apologize in advance for this being a long post>>>>
RULE 5...Privileges of Membership
5.1 Only Owners are members of the Club ( "Members")
Membership includes the right to vote at meetings of Members; the use of the Property,and its amenities;service on the Board of Directors and Commitees of the Club;participation in Board and Commitee meetings,and the right to authorize the admission of.or to admit,non- members to the Property ( known as gate clearance )
5.2 Adult Family members ( family as defined by Declaration ) I posted this definiton earlier.....may enjoy the above privileges except voting as meetings of Members,Minor members of the Family of a Member ( defined as those under the age of 18) may use the Property and its amentities,but must have written Member permission for the unsupervised use of the swimming pool.tennis court,lodge,exercise room.trap and skeet,and use on the roads of golf carts.Minor members if a Member's Family may not engage on hunting activities or use the Rifle Range unless accompanied by the Member,A minor of a Members Family nay not autorize gate clearance,Permission documentation will be maintained at and monitored by the Managers Office.Any abuse of Family Member privileges will cause them to be revoked.....WHEW !!!!!!!
Now to me if onyl OWNERS are MEMBERS then how can adult family members as defined by Deed still have all the same rights.....To me if your family as defined DOES NOT LIVE WITH YOU or is a DEEDED OWner they dont have all the same rights and privilges... Am I not reading and understanding something here ??? Thus my request for help AHHHHHH Thanks LindaC
RULE 5...Privileges of Membership
5.1 Only Owners are members of the Club ( "Members")
Membership includes the right to vote at meetings of Members; the use of the Property,and its amenities;service on the Board of Directors and Commitees of the Club;participation in Board and Commitee meetings,and the right to authorize the admission of.or to admit,non- members to the Property ( known as gate clearance )
5.2 Adult Family members ( family as defined by Declaration ) I posted this definiton earlier.....may enjoy the above privileges except voting as meetings of Members,Minor members of the Family of a Member ( defined as those under the age of 18) may use the Property and its amentities,but must have written Member permission for the unsupervised use of the swimming pool.tennis court,lodge,exercise room.trap and skeet,and use on the roads of golf carts.Minor members if a Member's Family may not engage on hunting activities or use the Rifle Range unless accompanied by the Member,A minor of a Members Family nay not autorize gate clearance,Permission documentation will be maintained at and monitored by the Managers Office.Any abuse of Family Member privileges will cause them to be revoked.....WHEW !!!!!!!
Now to me if onyl OWNERS are MEMBERS then how can adult family members as defined by Deed still have all the same rights.....To me if your family as defined DOES NOT LIVE WITH YOU or is a DEEDED OWner they dont have all the same rights and privilges... Am I not reading and understanding something here ??? Thus my request for help AHHHHHH Thanks LindaC
JM2
Posts: 428
Posts: 428
Posted:
Hi Linda:
If there have been problems in the past/current then it seems that your BOD would want to encourage an amendment to the CC&R's to limit "family" to those (permanently) residing at a Lot/Unit within your HOA. If the problem hasn't come up yet, then you are to be extra commended in bringing it up.
You'd probably want to run any amendment by your lawyer, but here's some possible language:
"For the purpose of the use of amenities within the Association, authorization of entry, (and whatever other uses you'd want to list), Family refers only to those blood relatives listed in Section (whatever section lists everbody) who have permanent residence at the home of the member, whether those are blood relatives of the Member or the Tenant of the Member..."
Of course you'd want to tailor things to suit the rest of your docs, and may want to amend some of the Family section to delete mention of use of amenities, and put it in the new section.
J. Patrick Moore, CMCA
If there have been problems in the past/current then it seems that your BOD would want to encourage an amendment to the CC&R's to limit "family" to those (permanently) residing at a Lot/Unit within your HOA. If the problem hasn't come up yet, then you are to be extra commended in bringing it up.
You'd probably want to run any amendment by your lawyer, but here's some possible language:
"For the purpose of the use of amenities within the Association, authorization of entry, (and whatever other uses you'd want to list), Family refers only to those blood relatives listed in Section (whatever section lists everbody) who have permanent residence at the home of the member, whether those are blood relatives of the Member or the Tenant of the Member..."
Of course you'd want to tailor things to suit the rest of your docs, and may want to amend some of the Family section to delete mention of use of amenities, and put it in the new section.
J. Patrick Moore, CMCA
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