Unresponsive Board a President

I am having a heck of a time with the HOA president and an unresponsive community. I've hired an attorney and right now and over 2013-2014 have spent $4500 in legal fees. The issue: I requested some tile work for an alcove on my garage. The prez doesn't like me so he blocked the project with no explanation. It was a rush due to the health of a tile artist, not being able to work in summer heat. Nothing was wrong with the project, I simply got no answer. I pushed for an answer sending several e's, he had a restraining order placed on me bc he did not want to answer my question of why block my project? I challenged the restraining order even when my attorney told me I would lose. I really just wanted to see if he would waste the community money, and he did.

After the yr passed I decided to learn as much as I could on HOAs, CC&Rs, and ByLaws. What I've learned isn't pretty, and my community has breached many of the CC&Rs and covenants as well as one ByLaw. I've asked for the Prez's resignation and didn't get it. When he heads to ?Illinois in May I intend to petition for his removal ... That way it will cost him to return to fight it.

I'm still asking lots of questions, like why are the CC&Rs not being enforced for the buddies on the Board, and am getting no answers. My atty is outraged. They hired another atty to fight me, adding up costs for the community and have threatened me with a court injunction at my cost if I don't stop sending e's requesting what State Statutes telling me I'm entitled to. They will receive another Ltr from my attorney tomorrow to fulfill my requests or we go to court. The mgmt company is uncooperative and they are threatening to drop my HOA. Who would have thought that one blocked project would result in all this?

I'm trying to figure out what would motivate a Board to act like this. My attorney feels I have really intimidated them bc the law seems to be on my side. I am not looking for any monetary gains, I simply want a board that will enforce the CC&Rs and treat HOs equitably. Might you have any suggestions outside what my attorney is doing for me? My atty has been with me for 21 yrs and is very well respected in the city I live in. I would never consider switching.

Any suggestions especially from Long standing Board members will be very much appreciated.

I am not an attorney and I do not work in the legal profession. Since you have already hired an attorney, who has access to your governing documents and is knowledgeable in the laws of your State. they will be able to provided far better advice than I in your legal options.

With that being said, I will offer the following:

Don't focus on the President. That individual is simply the voice of the Association. Expecting that the President is also a Director, they are only one vote and it takes a majority vote to approve or block anything.

If you're considering a recall, then start canvasing for support now. You will not only need signatures on a petition to call a general membership meeting for the recall, but individuals willing to serve in those positions if the recall is successful. I would suggest having more candidates than the number you are recalling as it's highly possible (and I'm being honest here) that you might not be voted onto the Board because you will be the one that is identified as causing all the issues (it doesn't have to be true to be blamed for something). This accusation alone may simply cause others to not vote for you.

Your posting indicates a definite personality conflict between you and this other individual. Don't let that conflict enter into anything you write or talk about when you are gathering support. I know it's difficult to not have emotions enter into the conversations. However, more often than not, emotions can have others discount what you are presenting as a just a personality conflict (example: you're just doing this because you were told no), vs. the actual issues. Stick with the facts. Provide citations from the governing documents or applicable laws so others can independently verify the facts. Don't embellish the facts. Don't add more than is needed to establish the facts (example: your earlier comment that "the prez doesn't like me" is not needed to establish the facts). Then simply let the facts speak for themselves.

Don't expect changes overnight. It took me three years of educating the membership on the facts before any changes were made on the Board (and no, I was not elected to the Board when the first change happened). Had I tried for a recall in the first year it likely would have failed and I might not have been able to reach as many of the membership that I did to make those changes.

Based on the fact that it can take time to educate the membership, instead of a recall, you may do better in gathering support and simply vote them out at the next meeting.

Hope this helps,

Tim

you have engaged an attorney

evidently you don't like his advice

keep on shopping, eventually you will find some you like

let the $$$$$ flow

OR

fuh-get-bout-it

No, no .. I am happy with his advice ... I've been with him for 21 yrs ... I just keep looking for other things so that I can bring the ideas to his attention. He is after all human, and while I see him as darn near perfect ... No one is.

I so want to post positive and nice advice to this post. It's really there I promise. However, the devil's advocate side has got a grip on me something awful... Call this what is sitting on my other shoulder advice...

Prime example of "suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors". Seriously??? Your going to complain about racking up lawyer bills and the HOA doing the same thing??? What are they supposed to do??? The HOA has every right to respond in kind of what you do. You bring a lawyer, they bring theirs. When they bring theirs, it means money out of the HOA budget.

If you ever took any of this to court what would you sue for? The court system can ONLY make you whole. So were you out of money because the tile job was denied or did you do it anyways? You don't have a leg to stand on if you did it anyways despite what you think personal feelings are or not. The HOA denied your request and the face of the HOA is the President. They don't have to necessarily give you a reason. Just "No". Besides what if they gave you a reason? Like the color doesn't match the rest of the HOA's color scheme? Any reason they give you, you would fight and argue with anyways. If your fighting because you got a "no" answer then you would fight if you got any answer.

You don't want to be on the board but you want to criticize them. My feelings is that if you don't want to participate in your HOA, then don't participate period. That include opinions of what you think the HOA is or is not doing. You don't want involved so what does it matter what they decide? Your just going to go along with it anyways by not attending meetings, voting for board members, or learning your documents properly.

My advice? Drop the lawyer. Learn to play nice. Not everyone in the world is out to get you and ruin your day. Sometimes it's because you have ruined theirs... I am a believer you get exactly what you put out back. You wonder why their reaction to you is what it is, look at how you react to them... Bringing lawyers? Demanding answers that you don't even know what you want the answer to be? If you ask a question, then know the answer you want, then work from there.

If individuals don't step up to serve, then they allow those willing to serve to serve and make the decisions that affect all.


You don't have to steer the ship to be part of the crew.

Here, Here !!!

A HOA does NOT nor is it responsible for your home value or what you sell your house for. Home values are based on REAL #'s and not enforcement of rules. A HOA makes your home MORE ATTRACTIVE to potential buyers.

So your argument and standing up for your rights has no bearing on reality and your home resale/value. Your board are homeowners to. they are volunteer only and get no pay. A HOa is managed by the owners for the owners. It goes by what the neighbors want to be enforced. Not everything on your list fits into that. Not everything you request should be personalized. Do you want people to see your information? Then the information you seek is what you would want them to release on you.

So you are you prepared to pay that extra 1500 -2000 in addition? You said each homeowner would have to pay it. Your not exempt. Plus court may make you pay your own legal costs. The court decides who pays the legal bills of the parties in court. The judge can even make you pay the Hoa legal bill if the case is found outrageous and aggresious.

They denied you a project. Go cry me a river. It does not matter how much you wanted it, it was denied. I can think of some reasons. One of which you never improve your home more than the homes around you. Example you never put in granite counter tops when all the houses have formica. It does not enhance your home resale value or get your money back. Tile may be an upgrade that others are not going to ever do.

You may need a new attorney; one who actually reads the cases he cites.

I read Riley v. Stoves and the issue of failing to uniformly apply and enforce CC&R's was never raised. Riley bought a mobile home in an age-restricted community and moved in with his children. He argued that the phrase "Restricted to persons 21 years of age and older" applied only to owners and not to residents. Among other arguments was that kids from nearby passing through the adult-only mobile home park invalidated the age restrictions. The court did not find in Riley's favor on any of his arguments. The only thing in Riley that even remotely supports your position is a single line that reads: "It is true that where frequent violations of restrictions have been permitted, the restrictions will be considered abandoned and unenforceable. O'Malley v. Central Methodist Church, 67 Ariz. 245, 194 P.2d 444 (1948)." In the final analysis, Riley does not support your case at all but does make reference to another case that might. A better attorney would have cited O'Malley and not Riley.

Burke v. Voice Stream is not very helpful to your cause, either. Voice Stream sought to build a cell phone tower in a residential development with CC&R's but no HOA. When Burke tried to prevent construction of the tower, Voice Stream argued unsuccessfully that other violations of the CC&R's made them unenforceable. Since the court rejected the very argument that your attorney is advancing I do not see how it helps you. Yes, the court did note that in some circumstances that widespread violations might invalidate some restrictions, but it gave no indication of what was required for that to happen.

I am not an attorney but I have done my own legal work for decades. Your attorney is worthless.

IMO MOST are!

Jon ... You likely know much more about attorneys than I, but I've been with this one for 21 yrs. When he tells me we'll win, we have won. When he tells me we'll lose, but it's worth it to lose, we lose. I also read those cases and we haven't yet discussed why he's cited those, but the summary you've brought up, usually lacks the detail that he's looking for. As one of the most successful attorney's in my area, and his track record with me, I'll stick with his opinion rather than yours. But again, thanks ... you likely know more than he.

Yes, I am already out $4500 and will go much further. This is no longer about the initial project, it's about my contract being breached along with the covenants. If I lose, I lose ... either way, it will stand for other HOA cases, in that a HOA Contract is either enforceable or not. And, you're correct, a loss doesn't enhance my resale value, but it will make me feel forever good that I stood for my rights, when others would not. It's a feel good issue.

Trite, but wrong. My attorney and most good ones tell a client what they don't want to hear. I wouldn't pass on this attorney for anything ....

Sadly this is the ticking time bomb in HOA's across the country. Society has slowly moved to and is moving faster to the "it's about what makes ME feel good, not what's good for the Community."

JonD is right, it seems like this is too common of a thread. It seems that most owners don't read their CCR's, until getting blocked, denied, or flipped off by the board, that's when they pull out the "Contract" also known as the CCR's, and actually read. Or they get an attorney who uses this "defense" to get themselves hired. After all, if they had read the documents they would have noticed well before now how lacking the BOD was and started screaming default. Right?

If an owner such as the OP feels they must fall on the sword for the good of the HOA, they will find out differently when the HOA has to special assess attorney fees. Which is another crazy thing, why would a homeowner spend $4500 of personal money for this unless they've been promised it would be returned. Perhaps the OP is loaded and it's a pittance to them, but that's a heck of a lot of money to spend just to prove your right, the current board as well as all the previous ones have screwed up.

Patricia,

Although it may sound like it, everyone is not telling you to not stand up for what is right. They are saying that legal action should be a last resort because of all the consequences associated with it.

As you stated when you started this thread, you are looking for suggestions "especially from Long standing Board members will be very much appreciated." Well Board members are human and, to be honest, become annoyed when an individual complains that they are not doing the right thing but then have the complainer refuse to serve on the Board to help correct what they believe is wrong. Since you made the statement that " I would never run for any Board position because I simply would not feel qualified to perform up to my own expectations," it does beg the question if you can't perform to your expectations, who could? As others have pointed out, an Associations Board is made up of volunteers from varied backgrounds. Sometimes the volunteers are less knowledgeable about the issues they are deciding on than those, like yourself, who have taken the time to do the research. The only difference being that they said "yes" when asked to serve.

I will say that you're taking the right steps in learning your governing documents and applicable laws. You have even gone beyond that in seeking a legal opinion on some of the issues. I applaud those efforts. As others have said, I wish you would have done the research on the governing documents and applicable laws earlier. However, since I'm being honest, I never really did my research until I had my issue with my Association either. 20/20 hind sight is always better.

As I said earlier, it takes time to educate the membership and you may be better off waiting until your annual election to vote the bums out vs. holding a recall election. This is easier, even more so for AZ Associations since AZ doesn't allow proxies (it's hard to get members to attend annual meetings much less special meetings).

Not knowing your governing documents, I wouldn't presume to guess why your application was denied, delayed or simply not acted upon. Perhaps you may want to attend a meeting of the Board and ask that question politely in person and in front of the entire Board. It might not resolve your issue but it may get you an answer. One thing that could help sway approval would be if there are other properties in your development with similar treatments. If not, then all I can say is the first one to change makes it easier for others to do similar work.

The problem with suggestions from those who have served on the board at this stage of the game is that fact that both sides (you and the Association) have brought attorneys into the mix. Once there is pending legal action (and a letter from an attorney can be seen as pending legal action), it places you into a different category. The Association could easily require you to only communicate to them through their attorney. This costs the Association money but may also cost you money directly, if you use your own attorney as well, or indirectly, though higher assessments.

I wish you luck and, hopefully, you can resolve your issue and smooth over any rough spots in relationships you may not even know are there. Those serving on your Board are your neighbors and, even though it can be good to disagree and have each side learn from the experience, they are still your neighbors and you will be interacting with them as long as you (or they) live in the community. Therefore, it's best to resolve conflicts at the lowest possible level and as amenable as possible. This paragraph is as much for those currently serving on their Boards as it is for you.

Hope this helps.

Again, I wish you luck.

Tim

Agreed !

And the way to do that, in my opinion, is to become involved in the governance of your own Association.

Imagine the changes that could occur if those unwilling to serve became willing. The numbers alone would likely equal an amount needed to change the governing documents themselves. Rather than make changes through the courts, make changes by getting involved, rallying support and kick the status quo out. Of course, this means that you and others need to be willing to serve so the status quo isn't simply reelected to continue the status quo.

The members indeed have the power to affect change, from within, if they are willing to actually exercise that power.

Which is why you take the time to educate and solicit support, mainly from those who don't attend meetings.


Well, you need support to do that. You also need to have a name or two to replace the individual if the recall is successful. This is the time to gather support for you to serve on the board.

However, I still think you may do better just educating the membership for now and then simply not reelect them at the next annual meeting.


And that, in my opinion, is being as immature as the Board is for refusing to talk to you.
I would urge you not to mention that to anyone else as it may work against you in achieving your objective. Personally, if I knew this and was in your Association, regardless of the logical facts provided, I would be hesitant to support your cause because I'd be questioning the reason you had for doing it. Was it to correct what you see as wrong or was to be vindictive for a perceived wrong?

Perhaps I am disconnected. And, as I've said before, I'll share in the blame. So you haven't answered my question on the Contract. You feel that co-operation should come from me when over the past year, they have shown no inclination to co-operate? I've apologized twice, and I've asked to meet with them and talk this thru 8 times. Do you know what I've got back "EXACTLY NO RESPONSE". So exactly how do I need to proceed from here, when I've tried everything I can think of to get a response and settle this? How can I drop my attorney when they are initiating the legal action? Wouldn't it be cheaper and make more sense for the Board to agree to sit and talk this thru? Can't they answer questions like "Are CC&Rs enforced or not?" Can't they give me the docs the State Statutes say I'm entitled to? And, yes, my purpose in going thru them is to look for clues about what's going on. I certainly don't want to go thru them for entertainment.

For 20 yrs, I did mortgages ... every week I had to deal with a person I did not like. How did I handle that? I bit my tongue and proceeded to the end goal. I have a pitiful 11th grade education, ALL of my BODs are very accomplished people? I am a little army of one, who has been waving the peace flag for a year ... yet, NO RESPONSE.

I don't waste my day watching Dr. Phil, so I sure don't have any advice handy as you do. You can pity my community all you want, but I do have support on my side. I will go back and repeat again that I have a contract with the HOA and when I fulfill it, I expect them to do the same. Is the contract for all or some?

I beat myself up pretty badly day after day, so I know I don't make any claims that I am at all righteous. I'll leave that to you. And, BTW, I think I have less than 20 responses on this website ... how do you explain how you enjoy your day when you have an excessive number of posts? Dr. Phil and HOATalks ... doesn't sound like a way to spend a life to me.

Patricia:
Your situation sounds very familiar to me as I have experienced some of the same. Unfortunately there can be a real ugly side to HOA living and you won't get much support on this forum.

I decided to be as uninvolved in my HOA as possible because it was causing me lots of stress and thousands in legal fees. I now focus on the positive things about where I live. It sounds like you have a beautiful home and take a lot of pride in your home. Maybe just take a break for now and get some perspective. I'm much happier since I stopped obsessing about it.

So now we get personal???

Education aside your biggest liability seems to be your inability to understand and deal with people.

And your contract question as it does not relate well to a tile job dispute warrants no reply om my part.

Whether you can grasp it or not you have set the tone long ago and now you claim to be dismayed as to the return behavior you are receiving.
You are disconnected no doubt.

And finally the simpleminded attempt by you to equate number of posts with the quality of ones life???????
Are you off your meds????

You made your first post a few days ago I have visited this site for years and you can't put that together??

And you try to suggest you can draw some meaningful conclusion from that?

I have to wonder if in fact you completed grade 11?????

Off you go on your crusade to do battle with windmills in the name honor glory and living a full life.......

You should watch Dr. Phil or request to appear as a guest.

Patricia,
You asked if I had a contract for 100000.00 and they decided to only pay me half of it what would I do? Naturally I would take them to court. BUT the difference here is that I would not of ignored it until it suited me.

My point is only this: if you had read your docs well before this issue arose, why weren't you fighting the BOD then? We have a homeowner who may take our HOA to court over similar issues, but he ignored all the "violations" for the last 15 years. But now that he didn't like the way the BOD handled it, he wants to sue.

Like Tim said, you asked for thoughts etc on this and now that we've given it to you, you are traveling down the same path as so many do in this situation. When they don't like what they hear, they get defensive and take it to a personal level. Sorry you don't like what I've said, and I feel your frustration and anger over this, really I do.

Good luck!

I read through this whole conversation today. You stated your point and others responded. Now you are beginning to just sound like a bellyacher. I don't believe you are going to gain any love for that. Forums tend to be more useful for everyone if they are used to exchange ideas not a place to cry the blues.

If you follow through with you brigade I hope you find what you are looking for. In my community, if we followed the CCR's and Bylaws in a very strict manor, there would be many more unhappy residents than there is by being just a bit more lenient.

Mike

"I've given some thought on how this would have changed had I read the CC&Rs 8 yrs ago when I moved in. I don't believe anything would have changed. It has always been my goal to follow the CC&Rs and check to make sure I am in compliance."

HUH???????????? In one sentence you claim you never bothered to read the CCRs when you bought your place and then right after that you claim your goal was to follow these same CCRs you never read??????? WTF????????

Just how do you make sure you are in compliance when you say you did not read the documents???

Seems like you have decided to live the role of victim. Why's evereybody always picking on me??? And of course you take NO responsibility in any of this. But you plan to stir things up when he President leaves town just to cause them trouble and require they return.

Mature......... real mature. And you wonder why no one talks to you???? A real mystery!

Your Board President could be the biggest a__ ever to hold the office and perhaps they need to go however you certainly are not blameless in this matter at all.

Your tile work was not approved so now after 8 years you assume the role of HOA document enforcer on principle. That just does not fly.

Now as you have stated you have no intention of backing down and the community and your neighbors will pay the price for your stuborness.

If only you were given what you wanted...... Sounds like the behavior of a spoiled 2 year old.