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JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I am just curious how an HOA would enforce dog breed bans? Our HOA states "Under no circumstances whatsoever shall any dogs be allowed on the properties which are a breed known to bite people, such as pit bulls, Doberman Pinchers, German Shepherds, Rottweiler, Akita, Bull Mastiff or Mastiff, Chow, Husky, Presa Canarro, Bull Terrier, Wolf Dog, etc."

My question is, if a resident has one of these breeds, how can we enforce that rule? All they could say is that their dog is not one of those breeds. If they deny it, how can we argue that they are lying?

And if one resident has a dog on the ban list, would we then have to investigate and make ALL residents remove dogs that are on this list?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 6:47 AM

My question is, if a resident has one of these breeds, how can we enforce that rule?

Mutual agreement (owner admits violation)
fines ($$ per day)
lien for fines (if not paid and authorized by applicable laws)
foreclosure on lien (if authorized by applicable laws)
Courts

Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 6:47 AM

All they could say is that their dog is not one of those breeds. If they deny it, how can we argue that they are lying?

Experts in the field.
Request copy of rabies certificate (as they may have the breed on the certificate)
Check the county license records (as the dog license may have the breed on it)
Request certification from the owners vet.
Take the opinion that the owner must prove the Association wrong (with similar documentation above)

Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 6:47 AM

And if one resident has a dog on the ban list, would we then have to investigate and make ALL residents remove dogs that are on this list?

Yes, otherwise the owner has a selective enforcement defense.

Personally, I don't believe in banning specific breeds (especially based on what you provided - all dogs bite).
I do believe in holding the owner accountable for the actions of the pet.
If the pet bites someone (and that can be tragic) it an issue between the dogs owner, the individual bitten, the courts and likely the local dog catcher/health department. It should not, in my opinion, be an issue for the Association.
JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I don't personally believe in banning the specific breeds either, however those are the rules set forth. There is also an issue that there are 2 sets of rules that were distributed, one that included what I posted above, and one that only included the first 3 breeds.

There is government license requirement in my jurisdiction, and as far as requesting vet records, and the resident refuses is our only recourse court action? Can we really assess fines for a violation that the owner denies unless we take them to court?
RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
Two sets of rules? Big problem.

You may need to make sure everyone has the latest [list] rules first.

Is this rule even enforceable?

i.e. Do your CC&Rs give the BOD such rule promulgation authority (assuming applicable state laws regulate such)?

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.
JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Yes our CC&R gives us the authority to impose sanctions in the form of a $50.00 per day fine for as long as the violation occurs, however we have a procedure we must follow first, as a written demand to correct the issue giving them 10 days to respond. If the owner does not respond we consider the complaint valid. If they object they must do so in writing in 10 days, and then we must respond with our findings and set a hearing. It does not set forth any recourse for us, as to request vet records, etc. and there are no state of city laws banning those breeds.

So if the owner denies their dog is one of those breeds, it seems our only recourse would be court, and given that there were 2 sets of of rules it doesn't look like we could really do anything about it
RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
To be clear: Are you saying the CC&Rs contain pet restrictions?

You said 'rules' earlier and there is a difference.

While CC&Rs could, an certainly some do, contain such restrictions they typically don't cover fines and such (but anything is possible).

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.
JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Sorry, I meant the "Declaration of Covenants, Conditions, Restrictions and Easements" is what it is officially called and does contain pet restrictions and covers fines
JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Also, I wanted to mention that the management company does not routinely hand out the CC&R's to every new homeowner. The homeowner in question that has a dog on the banned list never received a copy of them before they got possession of the animals, so I don't know if that makes a difference. They claim that they had to ask another owner for a copy. I am new on the board so I don't know if we can legally enforce this or if it's something we need to address property-wide
RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
The CC&R verbiage regarding pets is important.

Any chance you post it?

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.
RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
Ignorance of the (a) law is no defense.

If you purchase within an HOA you must expect certain 'things' to go along with it.

Does your state not require disclosure of its existence and or related documents upon entering a contract to purchase or closing?

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I'm still curious, Jay, to know more about the "two sets" of rules. I think you've made it clear that one set actually is in your CC&Rs.

What/where is the other set? Is it in a document called something like Rules & Regulations? Who approved them? Are there minutes that show the approval?

RE: the owner who says he never saw the CC&R (Declaration) restriction. That's his problem. They should have been included in the papers he signed when he closed on the purchase of his home. Unless your contract with your PM states the PM must distribute CC&Rs to every new owner (which I doubt), the PM is in no way responsible.

Our MC certainly does not distribute these to every new owner and every new renter. Our board via our PM annually reminds owners that our CC&Rs are on our web site. Ditto our Rules & Regs.

Unusual, but I disagree with Tim about a couple of things. While I agree it's the Board's job to discipline owners who the Board knows violate the restricted breed CC&R, I do not agree that the board should "investigate" to try to learn just who has one of these dogs.

Secondly, In our HOA & many others, the lot owner is responsible for dogs' behavior whether the dog belongs to the lot owner, a guest, a renter, a contractor, etc. In our HOA our rules are we would call the unit owner to a hearing if a dog involved with that unit bit someone, relieved itself in our elevator, etc. If a dog bite, the Board can demand that the dog be muzzled in the future or ban the dog from the premises. IN towers with two smallish elevators each, we as a board cannot have vicious dogs in them.

How many units are in your HOA, Jay? Are they detached homes? Or?

I have no idea how to detect if a dog "really" is one of the breeds that's banned.
NicoleO1 (California)
Posts: 181
Posted:
It's easy to get around.. I have a friend who is a vet.. they just write an alternative breed. For example. Staffordshire Terrier.. looks alot like a Pit Bull, is not a Pit Bull. Good luck with enforcing rule.. HOA Boards are not vets, nor is the management company. You will also come across vets are not always ethical and can out right lie about what a dogs breed is.. Canine breed identification is NOT in the scope of talents of either a board of directors or a management company.
NicoleO1 (California)
Posts: 181
Posted:
Our HOA has alist of banned breeds from prior board. WE have altered the rules to ban any dogs over 30 pounds unless already in grandfahtered in prior. We also require all homeonwers to have insurance. etc. But even that is hard to enforce.
NicoleO1 (California)
Posts: 181
Posted:
Our HOA has alist of banned breeds from prior board. WE have altered the rules to ban any dogs over 30 pounds unless already in grandfahtered in prior. We also require all homeonwers to have insurance. etc. But even that is hard to enforce.
JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I attached the page regarding the dog breeds. The other set is the same exact document (CC&R) except under the section attached it only mentions the first 4 breeds. That documents is dated 6 months prior to this copy. Since I was not on the board then, I have no idea if this was officially adopted or not.

These are town homes that have 15 units per building, and 4 separate buildings, each residence has their own entry.

I figured that it does not matter if the owner received a copy of the laws or not, and it should be assumed when you purchase the property that there are going to be some rules. The fact that when they finally did receive the CC&R, the version they received was different that what we have been handing out. I believe that the version without the additional breed restrictions was the original, and they changed it a few months later back in 2004 when the HOA was created.
📎 Attachments (1):

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JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Also, I wanted to know about requesting vet records. Can we do that? Can't the owners just refuse? Like I said I am new and I am not really sure how we can make them prove it without taking them to court.
JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I think this is a big problem because owner's are not provided with the CC&R at closing, nor are they told where they can get it. No email, link or anything. I don't think you have to expect a owner to actually go to the court to get a copy when they are not told it exists. The only notification our management company gives is the coupon book (of course they want you to pay the dues!). They need to provide the CC&R at that time as well.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Unless, Jay, your governing documents or state laws say that the HOA must provide the governing docs, e.g., CC&Rs, to the buyers, neither your HOA nor your PM are responsible. Check your own state laws on this topic, Jay.

Many lenders require certain documents & info too like % of homes that are rentals, % their reserves are fully funded, etc.

In many states' laws, the sellers must provide them to the prospective buyer a,t or several days before, the final purchases papers are signed. The seller gets all of the documents that are needed from the HOA board or PM.

It would be g rest if every HOA Board or PM supplied those to the new buyers just to make everything smoother.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 9:10 AM
Sorry, I meant the "Declaration of Covenants, Conditions, Restrictions and Easements" is what it is officially called and does contain pet restrictions and covers fines

That would be the CC&Rs (vs rules adopted by the Board)
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 11:05 AM
I attached the page regarding the dog breeds. The other set is the same exact document (CC&R) except under the section attached it only mentions the first 4 breeds. That documents is dated 6 months prior to this copy. Since I was not on the board then, I have no idea if this was officially adopted or not.

The one that must be complied with would be the one recorded with the county/State.

I would suggest that you obtain a copy from your local county clerks office.
RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
Keep in mind in many states the BOD is not compelled to enforce every CC&R and/or rule.

However it must do so equitably.

Additionally, often every member has the same 'power' to enforce the CC&Rs and rules as the BOD.

Before blazing a trail, and assuming no complaints, why not ask the membership if there is a problem?

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.
JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
The issue is this...

An owner has a pit bull, and it attacked another resident's dog, however there were no injuries. Another resident brought the fact that they had a pit bull so our HOA is forcing them to get rid of the dog because it is banned. The other owner whose dogs were attacked has huskies, which are also on the ban list, but no one has complained about that (yet). Their dogs are always well behaved and don't cause any problems. As a HOA we are not sure if we have to apply the rules evenly even though the person whose dogs were attacked are techically on the ban lis
RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
Seriously?

Enforce the rule on one owner but not the other(s)?

Your docs seem clear, enforceable, and immune to challenge especially if in place since community inception.

Failing to enforce ANY similarly established CC&R in an equitable manner will result in the loss of the case and association monies putting you right back to where you are now.

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.
JayS4 (Indiana)
Posts: 10
Posted:
This is what is wrong with HOA's in the first place. On the surface it seems like they could do good, but in reality it is an excuse for people to get involved in situations that they have no business being in to begin with. Everything can't be black and white, and our rules also allow for discretion.

If we have to enforce this, then there about 10 other rules that are being violated consistently, therefore we must fine the other 30 residents that are breaking those rules.

Thanks for the advice tho
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 4:56 PM

The other owner whose dogs were attacked has huskies, which are also on the ban list, but no one has complained about that (yet).

Doesn't matter. The Association is now aware of the problem and, since that breed is on the ban list, that is also a violation.

Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 4:56 PM

Their dogs are always well behaved and don't cause any problems.

Not relevant. Even though it's an excellent example as to why not to ban dogs based on breeds, your governing documents do ban dogs based on breeds.

Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 4:56 PM

As a HOA we are not sure if we have to apply the rules evenly even though the person whose dogs were attacked are techically on the ban list

You do.

In fact, since the Association is now aware of the violation, failure to enforce the covenants equally on this owner as well does two things:

1) Provides a valid defense for the owner of the pit bull if they want to take the Association to court for selective enforcement.

2) Increases the risk of future exposure of liability to the Association. As stated earlier, all dogs can bite. If the Association didn't have the ban in place and the huskies bite someone, it would be an issue between the person bitten and the dogs owner. Unfortunately, since the Association does have the ban in place and since the Association is aware of the violation, failure to act would be a case of negligence. Therefore, if the huskies bite someone the person bitten now can likely win any legal action against the Association for contributory negligence because had the Association enforced the covenants when they were aware of the issue, the dogs wouldn't have been there to bite.

To be honest, in my opinion, a semi-competent attorney would certainly bring such action against the Association simply because there is a ban in the Covenants. However, failure to act when knowing a violation exists makes it more likely that the attorney would win the case against the Association.

Bottom line is the Board doesn't have the authority to waive covenants (unless the CC&Rs grant such authority). Therefore, the choice is easy to see but tough to make:

1) Enforce the covenants equally on both parties.
2) Don't enforce the covenants on either party.
3) Realize how the ban creates a larger exposure to risk of liability for the Association and propose an amendment to the CC&Rs to remove the ban.

Mind you, I am not an attorney and I do not work in the legal profession. You may want to seek a legal opinion from your Association attorney as to what the best option for the Association would be.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 6:03 PM
This is what is wrong with HOA's in the first place.
If we have to enforce this, then there about 10 other rules that are being violated consistently, therefore we must fine the other 30 residents that are breaking those rules.

Typically, the Association has the authority to enforce (just like every member of the Association has the authority to enforce). However, there is typically no requirement to enforce. Therefore, the Board may choose which covenants to enforce (if any) or not. However, if they do enforce, they must enforce equally or they open the door for a defense of, or legal action for, selective enforcement.

Your Board made the choice to enforce this covenant. The Board could have told the member who brought the issue to the Boards attention that the Board has decided not to get involved but the member was free to enforce the covenants through the courts if they wished on their own. This may or may not have resulted in the members of the Board being recalled or not reelected to their seats. However, as you provided, the Board chose to become involved and enforce the covenant on the one member.

Learn from this, make it an issue within the Association and amend the documents to correct what you see as being wrong. If the ban wasn't in the documents, the Association wouldn't have been involved in the issue at all.

RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 6:03 PM
This is what is wrong with HOA's in the first place. On the surface it seems like they could do good, but in reality it is an excuse for people to get involved in situations that they have no business being in to begin with. Everything can't be black and white, and our rules also allow for discretion.

If we have to enforce this, then there about 10 other rules that are being violated consistently, therefore we must fine the other 30 residents that are breaking those rules.

Thanks for the advice tho

Tim addressed your misunderstanding JayS, but I will re-address what I said earlier...

"Keep in mind in many states the BOD is not compelled to enforce every CC&R and/or rule.

However it must do so equitably.

Additionally, often every member has the same 'power' to enforce the CC&Rs and rules as the BOD."

This might be simple (as Tim stated), see if the membership wants to change the covenant.

You could foment the need to do so by informing all other owners with 'illegal' dogs what could happen as a result of this incident.

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 8:17 AM
Yes our CC&R gives us the authority to impose sanctions in the form of a $50.00 per day fine for as long as the violation occurs, however we have a procedure we must follow first, as a written demand to correct the issue giving them 10 days to respond. If the owner does not respond we consider the complaint valid. If they object they must do so in writing in 10 days, and then we must respond with our findings and set a hearing. It does not set forth any recourse for us, as to request vet records, etc. and there are no state of city laws banning those breeds.

So if the owner denies their dog is one of those breeds, it seems our only recourse would be court, and given that there were 2 sets of of rules it doesn't look like we could really do anything about it

Be careful about those fines - they may be in the CCRs, but there's Indiana case law that says a homeowner association doesn't have the authority to levy fines because it's not a government agency. I know a lot of HOAs have them and people go along with them, but if you ever get someone who wants to dispute the charges, there's a good chance the HOA might lose.

I agree with you that banning specific breeds is problematic - the city of Indianapolis kicked this around with pit bulls, but nothing came of it. The real issue are the owners and how the dogs are socialized around other animals and people. Some people get the German Shepherds, pit bulls and such because they look terrifying, but are completely inexperienced, while others seem to think it's ok to let the dog run around the community unleashed (violation of city/county ordinances), poop everywhere (ditto) and basically terrorize little kids, old people and everything in between.

It may be unwieldy and expensive for the board to go out and prove this dog is/isn't a Doberman or has enough mixed in it to be a problem, so your community may want to rethink these CCRs and update them to smack the owner for irresponsible handling. Insist that no pet can be in the common areas if it or they aren't leashed and under the owner's control at all times (this includes cats and little dogs like Chihuahuas who are just as capable of biting than a Rottweiler.) Owners are also expected to clean up after their pets and control excessive barking, not to mention ensuring they're spayed/neutered and have had their shots (I believe Indianapolis ordinances also require the vaccinations against rabies).

The real issue will be enforcement, so people are going to have to be willing to file complaints specifying what happened and when. If you find you have a problem animal, perhaps Animal control can assist. In fact, talk to them and/or the Humane society to see what kind of regulations would be better suited for your community. Good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 04/24/2014 9:06 AM
Posted By JayS4 on 04/22/2014 8:17 AM
Yes our CC&R gives us the authority to impose sanctions in the form of a $50.00 per day fine for as long as the violation occurs . . .


Be careful about those fines - they may be in the CCRs, but there's Indiana case law that says a homeowner association doesn't have the authority to levy fines because it's not a government agency.

Virginia actually did have that challenged.
Court supported the challenge.

End result: Associations now call them monetary penalties or charges vs. fines.

Lots of money was spent over semantics with zero change in what can occur.
JoK2 (California)
Posts: 198
Posted:
>Lots of money was spent over semantics with zero change in what can occur.<

why did you bring Congress into the discussion? ;>)
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RwT on 04/22/2014 5:40 PM
Seriously?

Enforce the rule on one owner but not the other(s)?

Your docs seem clear, enforceable, and immune to challenge especially if in place since community inception.

Failing to enforce ANY similarly established CC&R in an equitable manner will result in the loss of the case and association monies putting you right back to where you are now.

I disagree 100%

My non-expert, non-legal opinion is that those rules are vague and in no way enforceable.

"Under no circumstances whatsoever shall any dogs be allowed on the properties which are a breed known to bite people, such as ....."

1)Name for me one breed that is NOT "known to bite people". (what does that phrase even mean?)
2)The list is not inclusive. It merely says "Such as" and continues on with an "etc..."

Small ankle-biters (thanks to horrible owners that excuse miserable behaviour) are some of the meanest, most unruly, mannerless things alive. What if one of those little dogs snapped at or bit someone or another dog? Would the HOA need to invoke the "such as...etc..." clause and kick it out?

The "30 lb" rules are equally bad. As if something happens when a dog reaches that size that makes it worse than one that is smaller.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 04/26/2014 5:25 PM
Posted By RwT on 04/22/2014 5:40 PM
Seriously?

Enforce the rule on one owner but not the other(s)?

Your docs seem clear, enforceable, and immune to challenge especially if in place since community inception.

Failing to enforce ANY similarly established CC&R in an equitable manner will result in the loss of the case and association monies putting you right back to where you are now.


I disagree 100%

My non-expert, non-legal opinion is that those rules are vague and in no way enforceable.

"Under no circumstances whatsoever shall any dogs be allowed on the properties which are a breed known to bite people, such as ....."

1)Name for me one breed that is NOT "known to bite people". (what does that phrase even mean?)
2)The list is not inclusive. It merely says "Such as" and continues on with an "etc..."

Small ankle-biters (thanks to horrible owners that excuse miserable behaviour) are some of the meanest, most unruly, mannerless things alive. What if one of those little dogs snapped at or bit someone or another dog? Would the HOA need to invoke the "such as...etc..." clause and kick it out?

The "30 lb" rules are equally bad. As if something happens when a dog reaches that size that makes it worse than one that is smaller.

I agree with Dave. The rules are capricious and not well defined. The dog rule should be that all dogs will be leashed and under control of the owner at all times. If there are any issues with a dogs behavior, fines will be issued to the owner. Dogs deemed dangerous by the BOD must be removed from the premises within 30 days.

RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
John,

No probem with diasgreement.

Remeber these are CC&Rs not BOD rules.

In what way are they capricious?

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Capricious: "not logical or reasonable : based on an idea, desire, etc., that is not possible to predict"

"Under no circumstances whatsoever shall any dogs be allowed on the properties which are a breed known to bite people, such as ....."

1)Name for me one breed that is NOT "known to bite people".

All dogs bite. Hence, all breeds are known to bite people.

"Small ankle-biters (thanks to horrible owners that excuse miserable behaviour) are some of the meanest, most unruly, mannerless things alive. What if one of those little dogs snapped at or bit someone or another dog? Would the HOA need to invoke the "such as...etc..." clause and kick it out?"
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 04/27/2014 3:25 PM
Capricious: "not logical or reasonable : based on an idea, desire, etc., that is not possible to predict"

"Under no circumstances whatsoever shall any dogs be allowed on the properties which are a breed known to bite people, such as ....."

1)Name for me one breed that is NOT "known to bite people".

All dogs bite. Hence, all breeds are known to bite people.

"Small ankle-biters (thanks to horrible owners that excuse miserable behaviour) are some of the meanest, most unruly, mannerless things alive. What if one of those little dogs snapped at or bit someone or another dog? Would the HOA need to invoke the "such as...etc..." clause and kick it out?"

Tim

At least one can drop kick them little suckers about 10 yards......LOL
RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
I see. I was referring to the legal term:

Unpredictable and subject to whim, often used to refer to judicial decisions which do not follow the law, logic or proper trial procedure. A semi-polite way of saying inconsistent or erratic.

Since these are CC&Rs the OP refers to, and given the amendment protocol required I don't believe they are typically a result of capricious behaviour.

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.

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