HOA docs

Started by AminB • 49 replies • 1786 views

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AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

I have been chasing my HOA Hurricane IKE insurance files for a long time. Thats what you are in for when you live with HOA, which is common untrained man/woman in legal matters left to his/her own devices to interpret the laws . At this point I don't care if its past the statue of limitations.I have my own local reasons to find out. They sent the documents I asked but heavily redacted and opened. When I asked why they are redacted, they said it probably was a copy machine malfunction!! This is over 80% redacted. Ofcourse it is not. I have asked the Board via certified mail to release the files to me unredacted and unopened. I have not received even an answer in 2 months.
Does anybody know EXCEPT filing a lawsuit , what are my options? I am not holding my breath on any options.

Would appreciate your input.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

The Association said it was a copy machine malfunction – did you ask for another copy? Better yet, if the documents are at the property manager’s, take a day or two off and make an appointment to go up there and review them on site. Tell the manager you may want to make copies and he/she should be able to tell you how much that will cost.

No, you probably won't be able to take them out of the office (how do they know documents won't disappear, become damaged or you mark them up?) There are portable scanners out there you could use - I saw one in the Brookstone catalog that downloads directly into a laptop. Ask the manager if that would be acceptable.

If this issue is past the statute of limitations, it would appear there’s no point in filing a lawsuit, but if that’s what you willing to do, go ahead and good luck.

As for the “untrained men and women” serving on the board and interpreting the laws, may I suggest that YOU volunteer to serve on the board? This way, you get to have a hand in the decision making process and can contribute whatever knowledge and expertise you have on this subject or anything else.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Yes I did. In fact that was my second request after they said it was a copy malfunction. The documents came from an insurance company out of state after 1 year chasing it with Freedom of Information Act . When they told me its ready, i went there and in front of me they opened it and handed it to the owner of the management company. He went through it and made sure it was ok for me to see and then handed it over to me. When i went through it , it was 80% redacted.

The answer to your other point, I did run for the Board. Every time they came with a bag of proxies telling me this is from homeowners. I had no way of verifying it. I lost, so I asked to let me verify them stuffing the envelopes with proxies, mailing them and then being there when they open them. They could have opened them all at once to save time. This is not about volunteering , qualifications or helping the community get better. Its about a group of people banding together to keep things about themselves. So ofcourse they refused this very reasonable request. I don't know about you or your association, but I can't imagine they can be much different. A common man/woman runs things. Lure of easy money by getting kickbacks from contractors, doctoring documents for insurance purposes and etc. is there. Sooner or later the easily corruptible ones have common everyday problems and find an easy way to make money and get rid of the honest ones that can blow the whistle on them. The laws should be that I should not need to file a lawsuit to see these documents. I have stated that clearly and I even capped it that I am looking for something other than that.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 04/21/2014 9:01 AM

Does anybody know EXCEPT filing a lawsuit , what are my options?

Amin,

Isn't this the same question you asked in other threads on the topic:

Subject: External audit
Subject: How to Disband Your HOA Thread diverted into discussing Amin's question.
Subject: Pursuing possible HOA fraud-new phase

I think you will find that the options are the same that were posted in those threads. The least expensive being gathering support and getting yourself elected to the Board. As a Director, you will have full access to Association records.

BTW, did you ever have your audit done?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Amin,

You may not have been participating in the forum when this thread was posted:

Subject: How to fight Back?

The thread was started based on a news article. Even though the thread diverted on if an Association protects property values or not, the basics on how to fight back are in the thread and news article (although the news article came from AZ, so there may not be an ombudsman in TX to bring the issue to).

Perhaps that thread can be helpful.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Yes it is the same issue which involves both insurance and how it was distributed (where the checks were different and we had a lengthy discussion here)and the documents. I had applied to get the insurance documents first but I thought the accounts would give a quicker result. After they dragged there feet, finally the head accountant gave us the accounts from that period. My accountant went through it but he also wanted to see the insurance documents fully and match them with the checks. This is were we have gotten stuck . First I sent them a certified letter asking them to release it. After a month or so they said what I had was a copy machine malfunction!! We are talking about 500 pieces of paper. So I sent them another letter asking them to send me a new one direct from the insurance company (no management company involved). This also was a certified letter. I have gotten not answer in 1 1/2 month. There is no agency as far as I know for me to just complain. If I complain against the management company with Attorney General they can just wash their hands off the whole thing and say we only work for the Board even though the owner of the management company was the one who went through the redacted documents. DA office would need proof and I can't get proof until we can see the documents. Its a catch-22. Who can I take my complaint against the Board? The answer is no one that I can think of. The only option remaining would be to file a lawsuit. In that case the other homeowners here and pretty much everywhere would turn against me and say I am using the resources of HOA . Remember I am trying to uncover what could amount to corruption. That wouldn't matter.
Any ideas to get around lawsuit and still see what I am legally entitled to see?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

I can tell you there isn't one in Texas and the one in Arizona you have to pay $500 just to sit at a meeting that might yield absolutely nothing and lead nowhere, which is exactly what the HOA industry wants. Make the legislature happy as they have done something or kicking the ball down the road and leave the homeowner with mmore confusion than before so they would just give up the fight.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

There is no such thing as a "HOA Industry"... but I digress...

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 04/21/2014 1:26 PM

Any ideas to get around lawsuit and still see what I am legally entitled to see?

Yes. It's been said in several threads and in this one.

Gather support and get yourself elected to the Board. Once on the Board, you should have full access to all Association records.

RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/21/2014 2:05 PM
There is no such thing as a "HOA Industry"... but I digress...

INDUSTRY:
"a branch of commercial enterprise concerned with the output of a specified product or SERVICE: i.e. the steel industry"

http://gazette.com/side-streets-hoa-industry-asks-state-to-license-regulate-association-managers/article/128187

http://www.ccfj.net/HOAartind.html

https://www.gocompass.com/Public_HOAIndustryLinks.php

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.

AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 04/21/2014 1:26 PM
Yes it is the same issue which involves both insurance and how it was distributed (where the checks were different and we had a lengthy discussion here)and the documents. I had applied to get the insurance documents first but I thought the accounts would give a quicker result. After they dragged there feet, finally the head accountant gave us the accounts from that period. My accountant went through it but he also wanted to see the insurance documents fully and match them with the checks. This is were we have gotten stuck . First I sent them a certified letter asking them to release it. After a month or so they said what I had was a copy machine malfunction!! We are talking about 500 pieces of paper. So I sent them another letter asking them to send me a new one direct from the insurance company (no management company involved). This also was a certified letter. I have gotten not answer in 1 1/2 month. There is no agency as far as I know for me to just complain. If I complain against the management company with Attorney General they can just wash their hands off the whole thing and say we only work for the Board even though the owner of the management company was the one who went through the redacted documents. DA office would need proof and I can't get proof until we can see the documents. Its a catch-22. Who can I take my complaint against the Board? The answer is no one that I can think of. The only option remaining would be to file a lawsuit. In that case the other homeowners here and pretty much everywhere would turn against me and say I am using the resources of HOA . Remember I am trying to uncover what could amount to corruption. That wouldn't matter.
Any ideas to get around lawsuit and still see what I am legally entitled to see?

Here is an article that describes the legal fight over the redacting of information at Fema for FOIA requests. The courts said that although they had to provide the addresses, they did not have to provide the names. Of course there is other sensitive information that will not be provided as well such as social security numbers. What information was redacted from your documents? If the management company knows what information is to be provided in a Fema FOIA response, he or she was doing a good job for the association by making sure the residents' rights were protected.

http://www.silha.umn.edu/news/summer2007.php?entry=199044

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Amin have you have contacted the insurance company directly and told them you suspect fraud? Trust me if the insurance company thinks they have a chance of recouping some money, they'll be on it like a ravenous dog on a steak. Same thing if it were FEMA money, the Government hates people who defraud it. That is unless they are rich enough to provide campaign contributions, then they provide bailouts.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RwT on 04/21/2014 2:15 PM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/21/2014 2:05 PM
There is no such thing as a "HOA Industry"... but I digress...

INDUSTRY:
"a branch of commercial enterprise concerned with the output of a specified product or SERVICE: i.e. the steel industry"
http://gazette.com/side-streets-hoa-industry-asks-state-to-license-regulate-association-managers/article/128187
http://www.ccfj.net/HOAartind.html
https://www.gocompass.com/Public_HOAIndustryLinks.php

Touché.

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 04/21/2014 2:08 PM

Gather support and get yourself elected to the Board.

Doesn't help Amin's situation where the election process itself is corrupt.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EricH8 on 04/21/2014 9:40 PM

Posted By TimB4 on 04/21/2014 2:08 PM

Gather support and get yourself elected to the Board.

Doesn't help Amin's situation where the election process itself is corrupt.

Being perceived as corrupt and actually being corrupt are two different things.

From what little Amin provided, it doesn't appear that the process is corrupt. Although, it does appear that the Board does not want to jump through extra hoops to allow Amin observe every step of the election process.

Perhaps Amin didn't knock on enough doors to obtain the proxies needed.
Perhaps Amin didn't contact nonresident owners about issues and asked for their proxies.
Perhaps there just isn't enough support from the membership to place Amin on the Board.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

There in such thing as HOA industry?!!!! You live in it. You were part of it. As a former president you even dealt with various industries, like different contractors, attorneys, etc.Heck you even slept with its members to get what you want. BTW, what happened to that con buddy you slept with to get what you wanted?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

I already stated that in the same posting. They won't let me monitor the election from start to finish. So surprise surprise , the honest guy looses by some proxies that i have no way of verifying it.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Thank you very much for that. I will check into that. It sounds like it could help me.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Yes a homeowner suggested that and I contacted them early on. I got to the fraud department and in 2 days they gave my answer: Everything was ok. Everything stands as it is. So in 2 days they went through 500 pages , examined everything I put in front of them like the fraudster insurance adjuster report and that mostly board members and their friends got insurance money and one homeowner (former board member) got money in a section where nobody was damaged (except hers) and they would not pursue it. Everything was ok.
This is how deeply entrenched they are and how well they work together. The insurance lady took 6 months to send the documents and the fraud department took 2 days to determine there was no fraud. This happens when they work together, the management company and the Board who is introduced to or willing to jump on all sorts of fraudulent activities. The system when it comes to HOAs has failed and it is decidedly against the homeowners. Its a system that is designed to perpetuate Board power .

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

OR and it's a big OR, there was no fraud. Or are you implying that even if the local agent were involved, they somehow managed to buy off the person in the fraud department? If you have brought this to the attention of the insurance company and your fellow homeowners and they don't see fraud, then perhaps, just perhaps the fraud is in your mind.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Thank you. Thats exactly my point. They have the power, hire the best attorneys and win election by secret ballots (which are still allowed for condos in Texas). Its kind of like banana republic. They get the power , arm themselves and attack anybody who dares to question the process or challenges their power . This is akin to third world countries and their grip on power. Thats what happens when common man is given too much power , like fines and foreclosure . They become little dictators with intent and will to commit fraud.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Sure lets play with words. If they don't let me monitor the elections, if they bring proxies without me verifying them, if they give 1 bid and 1 bid only to one particular company over and over, if they release the insurance documents redacted 80%, sure from outside it doesn't look like fraud is being committed!!!
Anything to keep HOAs going eh Tim?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

The fellow homeowners see the fraud clearly and thats why they vote for me. The problem is those invisible votes that they won't let me verify and bring to life make me lose. In the last election people had given up so bad that nobody ran and the Board elected themselves. See how much fun they have? May be you like to dismiss these and keep the HOA power going for yourself and others like you, because you are all brethren in fraud. Why would they redact documents at 80%a and every page? Names and social security won't probably constitute 5% of it. Is this the thinking that brought you to write "How to get rid of your HOA by waiting 10 or 20 years"?

EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 04/22/2014 10:55 AM
Its kind of like banana republic.

You aren't the first to make the banana republic analogy.

Rutgers Panel on Homeowner Association Problems
Source: http://pvtgov.org/pvtgov/downloads/hoa_history.pdf
This is an excerpt from the report written by Ed Hannaman who works for the Department of Community Affairs for
the State of New Jersey. Ed wrote this paper for a Rutgers Panel on Homeowner Association problems.

"With all due disrespect to South and Central American dictatorships, in the category of “Banana Republic” (BR) -elections section, complaints have disclosed the following acts committed by incumbent boards: leaving opponents’ names off the ballots (printed up by the board) by “mistake”; citing some trivial “violation” against opponents to make them ineligible to run; losing nominating petitions; counting ballots in secret-either by the board or their spouses or someone in its employ-such as the property manager; deciding to appoint additional board members to avoid the bother of elections; soliciting proxies under the guise of absentee ballots; holding elections open until the board obtains the necessary votes to pass a desired action; declaring campaign literature by their opponents to be littering; using association newsletters to aggrandize their “accomplishments” but forbidding contrary opinions by owners (one case requiring court action involved the board campaigning for local elected officials but forbidding owners from advocating for an opponent); routinely refusing to release owner lists to candidates-despite the board mailing owners (at association expense) their positions (it has become routine for the State to refer candidates to the municipal tax office to obtain the names of their fellow association owners); rejecting candidate platforms or editing them to conform to the board’s idea of fair comment which includes eliminating any criticism of the board."

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Thank you. Most of it applies to ours too. Many of our homeowners live someplace else. Ever since I started running for the Board, they stopped printing names on proxies. They sent them to all homeowners blank and there were reports that they would start calling them asking them to sent them back blank and they would "take care" of it. After that they would fill their own names and get elected. They knew because of my name recognition and telling everybody that I would try to stop maintenance fee increase and bring a transparent accounting, I would get elected. The system is designed to make the common honest man lose and the common dishonest man to win. The system in effect is designed for fraud to prevail and line up pockets of few at the expense of others.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Why is the song Cry Me a River suddenly stuck in my head? Amin life is not fair or easy and since I don't live in your HOA, I'll assume ALL of your charges and accusations are true. Instead of hiring accountants and lawyers, invest in a few rolls of good old US Postage Stamps. Mail a copy of your charges and whatever proof you have to the homeowners who don't live there along with a copy of a proxy that names YOU, ask them to vote for you and to return the proxy to you. Start a website where they can access more information and even a copy of the proxy they can print and mail to you. You can either beat them at their own game or you can sit and whine about how unfair they are.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 04/22/2014 1:01 PM
Why is the song Cry Me a River suddenly stuck in my head? Amin life is not fair or easy and since I don't live in your HOA, I'll assume ALL of your charges and accusations are true. Instead of hiring accountants and lawyers, invest in a few rolls of good old US Postage Stamps. Mail a copy of your charges and whatever proof you have to the homeowners who don't live there along with a copy of a proxy that names YOU, ask them to vote for you and to return the proxy to you. Start a website where they can access more information and even a copy of the proxy they can print and mail to you. You can either beat them at their own game or you can sit and whine about how unfair they are.

I've already done that including sending out letters even having a website. There is something stuck in my mind though. No no its not a song like yours , its a fact. You can't prove what you are not allowed to inspect. With that article you were going to help people how to take over their HOA, taking a couple of decades though. What happened?!!! I know what it is . For board members if it looks like fraud, it acts like fraud, it is no fraud at all.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Whine it is, then. If you have done everything you say you have done and your fellow homeowners haven't voted you onto the Board, its possible that they view you as the neighborhood kook.

My post on how to disband your HOA might have been a little tongue in cheek, OK sarcastic in tone, but I believe it points out the steps that must be undertaken to disband a HOA. If it were easy, how many HOA's would there be?

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 07/26/2013 6:09 PM
According to some posters HOA's are evil incarnate, run by megalomaniac Board Members who want to fine you into poverty and then foreclose and take your property. So why not disband your HOA? Most CC&R's have a mechanism by which they can be dissolved, follow it, cross all of the t's and dot all of the i's and voila, no more HOA. All you have to do (in most cases, check your CC&R's and State laws) is get your fellow homeowners to agree to disband and vote on it, which usually but not always requires 100% affirmative votes.

Next you need to dispose of any common areas such as the plots the entrance marker and storm water retention pond(s) inhabit. If you ask your local taxing authority, I'm sure they would be happy to take over the maintenance for them but they may make your home part of a "Special Taxing District" to pay for it. For HOA's that have pools and other amenities, perhaps you could sell them to someone who would open them up to the public.

After you get over that hurdle, you will need to distribute any HOA funds, after all the bills are paid and dissolve the HOA corporation with the state. Of course you would still have the deed restrictions which your neighbors could take you to court to enforce so you'll probably want to dissolve them too. You can do a simple internet search to find out how.

Oh I almost forgot, you probably will need the approval of your mortgage holder too, when they wrote the mortgage it was with the understanding that certain conditions would be met, which if the HOA were dissolved, would no longer exist, so you would be modifying the contract.

I am not an attorney nor do I work in the legal field, this is simply my lay understanding on how easy it is to dissolve an HOA, shouldn't take more than a decade or two. The above advice does not apply to condo's, townhomes or co-op's.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 04/22/2014 1:52 PM
Whine it is, then. If you have done everything you say you have done and your fellow homeowners haven't voted you onto the Board, its possible that they view you as the neighborhood kook.

My post on how to disband your HOA might have been a little tongue in cheek, OK sarcastic in tone, but I believe it points out the steps that must be undertaken to disband a HOA. If it were easy, how many HOA's would there be?

I think you've been singing and playing tunes for too long in your head and started believing you are legit. You're just another board member who tries to legitimize its kickbacks and bribes and doctoring of documents as a way to do business. BTW in your bogus article there should not be any tongue in cheek or hyperbole. Its supposed to be an exact set of instructions as to how to achieve your goal.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Bogus article? It's just my lay interpretation on how to disband an HOA, I'm not an attorney and we don't give legal advice here. OK without any sarcasm her are the steps as I understand them to disband a HOA.

1. Read the section in YOUR CC&R's on how to disband.
2. Follow them exactly.
3. Have some entity City, County or Township assume responsibility of any common areas, like areas around entrance markers, roads if owned by the HOA and any rainwater retention ponds. Since the government doesn't have the money to maintain the common areas, they will often set up a "special taxing district", meaning you now pay your HOA fees to the government to maintain the common areas. The more common areas you have the greater the cost. If your HOA has things like a pool, clubhouse, exercise room, tennis courts, etc., in my lay opinion they would have to be sold to someone or if they are to be operated by the government opened to all area residents.
4. After all expenses were paid, then whatever monies remained would need to be disbursed according to the CC&R's either as a percentage to the homeowners or to a charity, I've heard of both.
5. The Corporation that is the HOA must be disbanded according to state laws.
6. We had one poster here who insisted that maintaining a HOA was part of his mortgage, so you may or may not need your lenders approval to disband without modifying your loan. The loan not only covers your home but your interest in the HOA.

After all of that your HOA will be disbanded. But wait: the deed restrictions still apply even without a HOA so you would need to also remove them from your deed to prevent your neighbor from taking you to court to enforce them.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Glen,

We have been through this before with Amin. If you recall, initially Amin refused to even go to his Associations office to review the documents the Association had. He also wouldn't send a representative in his place. He had all sort of reasons for not going and insisted that the Association provide specific documents that they may or may not have had. In other words, Amin was the victim.

Amin believes that fraud is being committed in his Association. He so strongly believes this that he, per his posts, is willing to spend money for audits and spend time soliciting assistance from others (the DA, the Insurance Companies Fraud department, etc.). Yet when they say that they need more information or that they have reviewed the documents and considers that no fraud exists, Amin believes that the insurance company and the insurance adjuster is in bed with those on his Board. Amin is a victim (again).

Per this thread, Amin has tried running for his Board and per Amin, "The fellow homeowners see the fraud clearly and thats why they vote for me." However, there simply weren't enough votes to elect Amin to the Board. Perhaps there simply weren't enough fellow homeowners that saw fraud (as you pointed out) or perhaps Amin simply didn't work as hard at collecting proxies to get on the Board as others did in collecting proxies to keep Amin off the Board. Either way, Amin is a victim (again).

Amin does refuse to do the one thing that would get him all the documents, which is legal action. The discovery process would require that complete copies of the documents be provided. Of course, Amin is afraid that such an action would be harmful to the membership. Although it is true that legal action would likely cause issues for the members, legal action is likely the only way the issue will actually be resolved as the Discovery process would (should) get all the documentation available. Of course, I suspect that if Amin would lose any legal action the courts and attorneys would be in bed with his Board as well (once again making Amin the victim).

This has all been discussed in the past and nothing has really changed. Amin is willing (per his posts) to spend money to discover the fraud that is thought to exist but Amin is not willing to hire an attorney and bring legal action to actually discover that answer. Amin is willing to take time to try and convince others (those on this forum for example) that his Association is corrupt and, perhaps, have them fight the fight for him. Of course, if you don't agree with Amin, you are part of that corruption (as exampled in his posting about the determination by others who have access to the documents that there is no fraud).

I personally believe that continued conversations is simply beating a dead horse.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Tim, I agree with your assessment of Amin as a professional victim but in rereading my original post, even I found it a little sarcastic, even though I didn't intend it to be, so I reposted it without any editorial comments on my part. As Joe Friday would say: "Just the facts."

I now return you to Amin's pity party.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Amin,

Having said all of that to Glen, and at the risk of beating a dead horse, I'd like to ask the following question (which hasn't been asked to my knowledge):

If you do actually find proof of fraud, what do you intend to do afterwords?

Are you hoping for a change on the Board? If you are, have there been enough volunteers stepping forward to actually have a need for elections (by that I mean, have you had 2 or more candidates for each available position at your elections)?

Are you hoping the Insurance company will come after the individuals? Of course, since they were serving on the Board at the time, the action would likely be against the Association and not the individual board members. If fraud is proven, insurance won't cover and the membership will be responsible for the legal expenses and any court awarded damages. Of course, the Association could then bring additional legal action against the individuals to recoup their money. Mind you, all of these legal actions will cause the same problems you are looking to avoid by not bringing legal action yourself. Of course, per your posting, the insurance company has reviewed the issue and already determined that fraud did not exist.

Are you hoping for the local DA to consider the crime important enough to bring criminal charges against the individuals?

Are you hoping to simply bring shame to the individuals (perhaps because of conflicts we are unaware of)?

What is it that you are hoping to achieve?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 04/22/2014 3:58 PM
Glen,

We have been through this before with Amin. If you recall, initially Amin refused to even go to his Associations office to review the documents the Association had. He also wouldn't send a representative in his place. He had all sort of reasons for not going and insisted that the Association provide specific documents that they may or may not have had. In other words, Amin was the victim.

Amin believes that fraud is being committed in his Association. He so strongly believes this that he, per his posts, is willing to spend money for audits and spend time soliciting assistance from others (the DA, the Insurance Companies Fraud department, etc.). Yet when they say that they need more information or that they have reviewed the documents and considers that no fraud exists, Amin believes that the insurance company and the insurance adjuster is in bed with those on his Board. Amin is a victim (again).

Per this thread, Amin has tried running for his Board and per Amin, "The fellow homeowners see the fraud clearly and thats why they vote for me." However, there simply weren't enough votes to elect Amin to the Board. Perhaps there simply weren't enough fellow homeowners that saw fraud (as you pointed out) or perhaps Amin simply didn't work as hard at collecting proxies to get on the Board as others did in collecting proxies to keep Amin off the Board. Either way, Amin is a victim (again).

Amin does refuse to do the one thing that would get him all the documents, which is legal action. The discovery process would require that complete copies of the documents be provided. Of course, Amin is afraid that such an action would be harmful to the membership. Although it is true that legal action would likely cause issues for the members, legal action is likely the only way the issue will actually be resolved as the Discovery process would (should) get all the documentation available. Of course, I suspect that if Amin would lose any legal action the courts and attorneys would be in bed with his Board as well (once again making Amin the victim).

This has all been discussed in the past and nothing has really changed. Amin is willing (per his posts) to spend money to discover the fraud that is thought to exist but Amin is not willing to hire an attorney and bring legal action to actually discover that answer. Amin is willing to take time to try and convince others (those on this forum for example) that his Association is corrupt and, perhaps, have them fight the fight for him. Of course, if you don't agree with Amin, you are part of that corruption (as exampled in his posting about the determination by others who have access to the documents that there is no fraud).

I personally believe that continued conversations is simply beating a dead horse.

Its just the same as before with you. You one-sidedly tabulated results of how I insulted others , and then when I brought it to your attention that I never insulted anyone unless they insulted me first and you did not even mention those. This time is no different, which brings the mentality of a board member who is in it with them and tries to keep the status quo. I have answered all these, and you only mention the questions , never my answers.I even capped it in my original start of this thread that I am looking for any way to find out what to do EXCEPT legal action. Its plain and clear and yet you went on and theorized on your own. I explained that legal action would turn homeowners against me . I explained this a catch -22. You here try to act respectable but at the end of the day you're just another board member which I suspect makes a living with these kickbacks. After all who would not support an agency that homeowners who in many cases have made their biggest investment of their lives can complain to and would have enforcement powers? Only people who make a living off status quo and don't want an anybody oversee the white collar criminal activity that they commit on a daily ,weekly, monthly,etc basis.HOA is a bureaucracy, but the first thing you guys are against when you grab power is another bureaucracy (as you guys like to call it), oversee your bureaucracy. This is where guys like you who like easy money up until then put your foot down. You did not even entertain the idea if homeowners themselves contribute to the creation of such an agency, meaning private funds. It is beating a dead horse only its with you. I just post here every step of my investigation which the way they are dragging their feet is happening every 3 to 4 months and post clearly what has happened and then you don't even read it. Its in plain sight. Ask yourself, why would homeowners have to resort to legal action for the recovery of a document in a non-profit corporation? When it comes down to it , you advise people , try to act respectable but everything is out the door when it comes to somebody overseeing your activity. Tell me, what do you have to hide in a non-profit corporation that you are running?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 04/22/2014 4:08 PM
Tim, I agree with your assessment of Amin as a professional victim but in rereading my original post, even I found it a little sarcastic, even though I didn't intend it to be, so I reposted it without any editorial comments on my part. As Joe Friday would say: "Just the facts."

I now return you to Amin's pity party.

Oh yeah its really cute how you too guys agree with each other and everything is honky dory. I posted for that other guy too. I am here anonymously asking respectable people about my problem to see if anybody knows something that they can tell me. Some provided articles, some from their own knowledge which have been helpful.And then there is you and Tim. Now tell me why would I care to make any kind of impression on you guys good or bad? How would that help me? How would for example playing a victim like you guys like to mention a whole lot and really trying to change the subject help me at the end of the day? How would playing ANYthing for you guys when I don't even know your full name or the city where you live and you don't name my full name or the city I live or HOA I am talking about? How would that in any way shape or form help me at the end of the day get those documents? How would getting the pity of people who doctor documents , hide documents themselves and probably withhold documents from guys like me by all sort of tricks in their own HOA , help me get those documents?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 04/22/2014 4:22 PM
Amin,

Having said all of that to Glen, and at the risk of beating a dead horse, I'd like to ask the following question (which hasn't been asked to my knowledge):

If you do actually find proof of fraud, what do you intend to do afterwords?

Are you hoping for a change on the Board? If you are, have there been enough volunteers stepping forward to actually have a need for elections (by that I mean, have you had 2 or more candidates for each available position at your elections)?

Are you hoping the Insurance company will come after the individuals? Of course, since they were serving on the Board at the time, the action would likely be against the Association and not the individual board members. If fraud is proven, insurance won't cover and the membership will be responsible for the legal expenses and any court awarded damages. Of course, the Association could then bring additional legal action against the individuals to recoup their money. Mind you, all of these legal actions will cause the same problems you are looking to avoid by not bringing legal action yourself. Of course, per your posting, the insurance company has reviewed the issue and already determined that fraud did not exist.

Are you hoping for the local DA to consider the crime important enough to bring criminal charges against the individuals?

Are you hoping to simply bring shame to the individuals (perhaps because of conflicts we are unaware of)?

What is it that you are hoping to achieve?

You sound like you are scared this would happen to you in your community. Have you done some of the same things? I wouldn't put it beyond any board member that is not for transparency.
What I am hoping ,is what is happening increasingly all over the US. Which means people have been successful in proving fraud have sent the perpetrators(Board members and their accomplices property managers) to prison. Isn't this where all criminals belong, acting respectful or not? In case you get that selective memory again, I try to accomplish that without lawsuit. Here is my question which I have forced for somebody like you to repeat: Is filing a lawsuit , the only remedy an honest homeowner has for trying to get those documents unredacted and unopened direct from the insurance company ? Notice, I put that last in case your selective memory kicks in to action.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

File the da-n lawsuit already and stop asking the people in the "Industry" if you should. That is about stupid for anyone on earth... I bet you go to the doctor and say: Gee doctor I think you misdiagnosed me and use the money for your golf game... i wantmy money back for your tee shot...

FIle you suit already, gather YOUR facts, and get your day in court. The documents you want them to supply will be provided to you and your attorney during the discovery period where you BOTH share evidence and then decide to compromise or go to court. That is the way court works for EVERYBODY!

No one here needs to defend their HOA to you or be accused of fabricated imaginary things that do not exist. Defend your own stance and seek a lawyer for YOUR situation. It is YOUR issue and NOT anybody elses.

I am beyond done with you as many others are. Sue already and stop whining about it. There will be another huricane again soon to worry about then. I am done and out. Please insult me and anyone else as you will. Welcome to America and stop playing the "I am not from America card" too. Your here now or get out...DONE!

Former HOA President

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/23/2014 9:11 AM
File the da-n lawsuit already and stop asking the people in the "Industry" if you should. That is about stupid for anyone on earth... I bet you go to the doctor and say: Gee doctor I think you misdiagnosed me and use the money for your golf game... i wantmy money back for your tee shot...

FIle you suit already, gather YOUR facts, and get your day in court. The documents you want them to supply will be provided to you and your attorney during the discovery period where you BOTH share evidence and then decide to compromise or go to court. That is the way court works for EVERYBODY!

No one here needs to defend their HOA to you or be accused of fabricated imaginary things that do not exist. Defend your own stance and seek a lawyer for YOUR situation. It is YOUR issue and NOT anybody elses.

I am beyond done with you as many others are. Sue already and stop whining about it. There will be another huricane again soon to worry about then. I am done and out. Please insult me and anyone else as you will. Welcome to America and stop playing the "I am not from America card" too. Your here now or get out...DONE!

Great! Now I hear from HOA community chest offering her opinion.You can read my answer why I won't file lawsuit. When did I ever say in all my postings or even imply "I am not from America" or playing that card in some sort of way? I challenge you to assume a different position and show me where I even implied that. But I do have couple of questions:

1. Why are you dodging my questions about your involvement with your friend with benefit con buddy, which apparently had some benefits for you and then left you hanging?

2. when you were on Board did you have to swallow lots of pride because apparently you became subservient to him in ripping off people?

MikeL13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 83

Posted:

As with any forum, please don't feed the troll.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MikeL13 on 04/23/2014 1:30 PM
As with any forum, please don't feed the troll.

The whole band of thieves ( board members) are in.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

If you have followed the state law for accessing documents and they have not provided all that they are required and have redacted documents they are not allowed to redact then IMO the only option left is a lawsuit to force them to comply.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 04/23/2014 2:00 PM
If you have followed the state law for accessing documents and they have not provided all that they are required and have redacted documents they are not allowed to redact then IMO the only option left is a lawsuit to force them to comply.

Can we say rehash enough? This is what I said in the every beginning. I said if you have any ideas BESIDES that. Now after all this I get back to filing a lawsuit.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Can you say Passive - Aggressive. Tim is right, you just want to be a victim, the world against Amin. From your other posts we know you have involved lawyers and accountants, we've pointed you towards applicable Texas law on the matter. If you have gotten professional advice you've paid for, free advice which you discount as being biased against you even though we've consistently tried to help, then yes you need to sue them.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MikeL13 on 04/23/2014 1:30 PM
As with any forum, please don't feed the troll.

I agree. Do not feed the troll.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 04/23/2014 8:23 AM

Have you done some of the same things? I wouldn't put it beyond any board member that is not for transparency.

I'm all for transparency and have taken steps to make my Association's business more transparent.

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 04/23/2014 8:23 AM

Posted By TimB4 on 04/22/2014 4:22 PM
If you do actually find proof of fraud, what do you intend to do afterwords?

What is it that you are hoping to achieve?

What I am hoping . . . in proving fraud have sent the perpetrators(Board members and their accomplices property managers) to prison.

Well, that would not be your call unless you are a member of the District Attorney's office.

Even if you do prove fraud to your satisfaction, you may not have standing to actually do anything about it. I don't think you would have standing because, based on all the info you provided, it would be the insurance company and/or FEMA that would have been damaged by the fraud. Therefore, it would be up to them to request charges be brought and that there damages be addressed.

If you have been damaged by the alleged fraud, perhaps you could refresh our memory on what damages you incurred.

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 04/23/2014 8:23 AM

Isn't this [jail] where all criminals belong, acting respectful or not?

That would depend on the crime and the existing penalties for the crime.

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 04/23/2014 8:23 AM

In case you get that selective memory again, I try to accomplish that without lawsuit. Here is my question which I have forced for somebody like you to repeat: Is filing a lawsuit , the only remedy an honest homeowner has for trying to get those documents unredacted and unopened direct from the insurance company ?

As has been posted several times, but I will post it again to refresh your memory, if the parties involved in a conflict can not remedy the conflict by themselves, then the only other option is to get a third party with the authority to remedy the conflict involved.

When the two parties are a member and their Board of Directors, this leaves the following options:

1) Gather support and replace the board [effectively changing one of the parties involved].

2) If applicable, bring the issue to a State/County Official [ombudsman office, police, DA, etc.]

3) Seek an injunction or compensation for damages through the courts

4) Live with it

5) Move

Per your posts, you tried option 1 and was unsuccessful. You of course can continue to gather support and, perhaps as more of the membership is educated about the issue, this option can be successful in the future.

Per your posts, you tried option 2 and was told that what your provided did not indicate that fraud existed.

Per your posts, options 4 and 5 don't appear to be a satisfactory solution for you.

This leaves option 3, the courts.

Therefore, you can either continue to try option 1 or take what documentation you have and seek a legal opinion on what your legal options are (to see if you have standing or not).

The choice is yours to make.

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