💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

BryceW
Posts: 1
Posted:
I Purchase a High End Home in a 14 5 Acre Subdivision With CC&R'S that Limited the Sq Footage to a Min of 2500 Sq Foot. Now The Other Property Owners are Wanting to Build Spec Homes and Are Changing the Min Sq Footage to 1800 Sq Foot. This Will Devalue My Property They Said Since they are the Majority They Can Do What Ever They Want. Do I Have any Recourse at All, My Life Savings are Tied up in My Property. Thanks for any Help
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
assuming they follow the contract procedure for an amendment

NONE

(remember, you signed the contract)
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Bryce:

Welcome to HOATalk ... What does your agreement say is required to ammend?

Also you should potentially consult with a local attorney who is knowledgeable regarding contracts and real estate laws ... in some areas attorneys will offer a "free" short consultation so you need to be sure and have your questions organized to keep it short. Be sure to ask the attorney that you would like to know which possible laws are being violated if others have already built homes meeting the requirements and Creditors have already lent alot of money for those homes based on the documents. When individuals purchase a home based on a contract they should be able to sell a home based on similar construction rights in the contract.

You might also utilize Google on the internet and search using quotes for the following string: "court case" "square footage" ... I remember a couple of years ago seeing a court case where the Judge denied other owners changing the documents because it would defraud others who had already built homes. I do not remember which state the case was but it would give an attorney food for thought on this issue.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Janet gives good advice. I'm not in the legal profession, but believe that JohnB is saying that the others probably can change that if they follow the CORRECT procedures as found in your governing documents or state law.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BryceW on 04/01/2014 9:09 AM
I Purchase a High End Home in a 14 5 Acre Subdivision With CC&R'S that Limited the Sq Footage to a Min of 2500 Sq Foot. Now The Other Property Owners are Wanting to Build Spec Homes and Are Changing the Min Sq Footage to 1800 Sq Foot. This Will Devalue My Property They Said Since they are the Majority They Can Do What Ever They Want. Do I Have any Recourse at All, My Life Savings are Tied up in My Property. Thanks for any Help

Bryce,

I know this advice is a bit late, but putting all your life savings into a house in a subdivision may not have been a very good investment strategy. You should have diversified your portfolio.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
governing documents AND state law (or any other laws)

governing documents = covenants = contract
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
A HOA does not add or subtract the value of your home. That is a misnomer. What effects the sale of your home is location, what the houses have sold for (including foreclosure/short sales) in the last 6 months, and the equal square footage/rooms of those home that sold. You may have the bigger house, which means what the other homes of similar size in that few mile radius have sold for will be what your home value is compared to.

My neighborhood is an older one. However, we have houses that range from 1200 square feet 3 bedroom 1 to 1.5 baths to 4/5 bedrooms with 3 or more baths and around 3K square feet. Do they sell equally? No. They sale for what a home may sell for similar within a few mile radius. So a house in a neighborhood 2 miles down the road may be what the home value is.

Keep in mind it's NOT the sales price you put on your home that is your home value. I can put 200K on mine and try to sell it. Would the bank approve or appraise it for that much? Heck no. They would appraise it according to what I stated earlier plus condition.

So the HOA changing the new requirments just helps the builder/developer save a dime or two. Plus should sell the homes faster. People may want smaller homes than larger ones. So the developer is changing it to attract more buyers as that is what HOA are supposed to do. ATRRACT HOMEBUYERS!!!

Former HOA President
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Melissa I would respectfully disagree with you to some extent on this issue. In my area there are a couple of subdivisions where Citizens and Mortgage Lenders invested large sums of money based on the Contract / Conveyance. Then along comes a developer who purchases and changes the Contract “At Will” with total disregard for the other consumers and creditors. The homeowners to date who have had to sell their homes due to items such as divorce, job transfer, etc. have experienced a loss between $145,000 to $170,000 per family. Now facts can show that it did not matter if one owner was selling when the HPI (House Price Index) for the area was at a Negative 9% or the other selling when at a Positive 4%, the one consistent value was a loss between 36% to 41%, no matter what the HPI.

Are you trying to state that a Developer can go fishing for Consumers to purchase their goods based on a Contract (which they had ultimate choice on what to place in that contract in the first place) and then defraud those very same Consumers’ Protection Rights and devalue collateral attached to a Security Agreement for a Secured Creditor? As a citizen in this country … I have a problem with that picture.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 04/03/2014 3:30 PM

Are you trying to state that a Developer can go fishing for Consumers to purchase their goods based on a Contract (which they had ultimate choice on what to place in that contract in the first place) and then defraud those very same Consumers’ Protection Rights and devalue collateral attached to a Security Agreement for a Secured Creditor? As a citizen in this country … I have a problem with that picture.

Janet,

I am 66 years old. You are the only person I have ever encountered in my entire life (and not just on this forum) who raises the issue of devaluing the "collateral attached to a Security Agreement for a Secured Creditor."

From what I can make of your arguments, you are of the belief that a mortgage borrower is liable to the lender for any and all negative changes in the value of the property no matter what causes the change. You also seem to believe that the borrower is liable even if the change in value is speculative, imaginary, or unrealized by way of an actual loss. In your quoted text above, you seem to imply that entities who were not parties to the mortgage contract also have a duty to protect the lender's collateral.

You have raised this issue so many times that it seems to be a personal obsession, your very own white whale. I confess to being mystified by where this would originate. Are there some statutes that you can cite or case law to support your conclusions? My instincts tell me that you misunderstood some substantial element of mortgage collateral and have taken to the mountaintops to extol your conclusions, as erroneous as they may be.

In my own state, a lender has no recourse against the borrower unless he has sustained an actual loss. Even then, the lender has only 60 days in which to file suit and the lender cannot file suit at all if the property is smaller than three acres. And this is in a state not known as being especially consumer-friendly.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Larry:

I am 52 years old and been around the block a few times same as you. To find those items I mention you would need to look outside the HOA statutes and instead look at potential Real Estate Statutes of Frauds. For example under CO the statute states:

38-10-117. Conveyances to defraud creditors void

(1) Every conveyance or assignment in writing or otherwise of any estate or interest in lands, goods, or things in action or of any rents and profits issuing thereupon, and every charge upon lands, goods, or things in action or upon the rents and profits thereof made with the intent to hinder, delay, or defraud creditors or other persons of their lawful suits, damages, forfeitures, debts, or demands, and every bond or other evidence of debt given, suits commenced, or decree or judgment suffered with the like intent as against the person so hindered, delayed, or defrauded shall be void.

In CO the state statutes under CIOA are actually very well written similar to other states who utilize UCIOA, which does the best to protect Developers, Consumers, and Owners. The issue is some do not stop and look at the big picture and compare where CIOA has limitations so that developers or an HOA does not violate other statutes, such as the above which is under different section titled: Real Estate Statute of Frauds.

While I am not an attorney I am also not a Citizen who has STUPID written across their forehead. I am perfectly able to read and try to comprehend any state statues made available to Citizens.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
And Larry …

Before you ask with regards to “Conveyance” here is how the term in my state is construed:

38-10-123. Term conveyance, how construed

"Conveyance", as used in this article, includes every instrument in writing, except a last will and testament, whatever may be its form and by whatever name it may be known in law, by which any estate or interest in lands is created, aliened, assigned, or surrendered.

The important term here would be “interest in lands created”. All property owners interest in lands within an HOA is “created” by the CCR’s. As noted above it does not matter what its form or what its name is known in law …

However, you also need to note that this section is “outside” of the CCIOA. Again, too many get focused on one section of laws while ignoring possibly other just as or more important sections.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
But Larry:

Don’t feel bad because I was initially under the same opinion as you until subjected to the last few years of Bull $hit. It is amazing what you can learn above and beyond what you think is possible. I had this last year a number of attorneys point out complete “illegal” violations and which some violations also could be considered “criminal” in our case.

LOL ... guess we are never too old to learn.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Janet,

Thank you for the responses.

The operative phrase in 38-10-177 is "the intent to hinder, delay, or defraud." Without the element of intent to defraud, this statute would have no application to a mere change in the value of the lender's collateral.

Regarding conveyances, your statement that "All property owners interest in lands within an HOA is 'created' by the CCR’s" is also wrong. The property interest does not exist until a deed (or other conveyance) is executed to convey title to the buyer. The CC&R's are a limitation on what may be done with the property but do not by themselves constitute a conveyance. The statute itself states that a conveyance "created, aliened, assigned, or surrendered" an interest in the property. CC&R's do not do that. BTW, the same statute also exempts a last will and testament from being a conveyance. Does that mean if Uncle Norman kicks the bucket and leaves me a house in an HOA that the CC&R's will no longer apply?

You totally baffled me with this one:
"I was initially under the same opinion as you until subjected to the last few years of Bull $hit. It is amazing what you can learn above and beyond what you think is possible. I had this last year a number of attorneys point out complete “illegal” violations and which some violations also could be considered 'criminal' in our case."

What bothers me most is that you have identified yourself in other threads as a public official who sits on a some sort of county zoning board. This places you in a position of public trust and the public has a reasonable expectation that whatever decisions you make will be made in compliance with public policy, which includes both statutory and common law. You, for whatever reasons, have misunderstood and misapplied statutes, grossly distorting their plain words to create laws that exist only in your mind. God only knows how many times you have prevented a person from doing something lawful and beneficial because you felt that altering the value of a lender's collateral (and not necessarily the applicant's lender) was a criminal act. You would be doing everyone a favor to remove yourself from that position before doing any more damage.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 04/03/2014 11:38 PM

The operative phrase in 38-10-177 is "the intent to hinder, delay, or defraud." Without the element of intent to defraud, this statute would have no application to a mere change in the value of the lender's collateral.


The “intent to defraud” has most likely been established with regards to my and other HOA.

Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 04/03/2014 11:38 PM

Regarding conveyances, your statement that "All property owners interest in lands within an HOA is 'created' by the CCR’s" is also wrong. The property interest does not exist until a deed (or other conveyance) is executed to convey title to the buyer. The CC&R's are a limitation on what may be done with the property but do not by themselves constitute a conveyance.


OMG … did you not just state that until the deed (or other conveyance) is executed to convey title to the buyer!!! Did not any developer under these statutes “create” said Subdivision pursuant to the CCR’s which in turn are conveyed to a Buyer under that sale agreement?

And sorry …. The conveyance created an interest in the property pursuant to: Whatever may be its form and by whatever name it may be known in law, by which any estate or interest in lands is created.

Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 04/03/2014 11:38 PM

BTW, the same statute also exempts a last will and testament from being a conveyance. Does that mean if Uncle Norman kicks the bucket and leaves me a house in an HOA that the CC&R's will no longer apply?


Seriously … Please show where the statute exempts a last will and testament. Also, your second sentence above regarding Uncle Norman is so stupid is does not compute.

Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 04/03/2014 11:38 PM

What bothers me most is that you have identified yourself in other threads as a public official who sits on a some sort of county zoning board. This places you in a position of public trust and the public has a reasonable expectation that whatever decisions you make will be made in compliance with public policy, which includes both statutory and common law. You, for whatever reasons, have misunderstood and misapplied statutes, grossly distorting their plain words to create laws that exist only in your mind.


Larry … this part is way beyond too funny. If I have misunderstood and misapplied statutes, grossly distorting their plain words to create laws that exist only in my mind … then the State AG would not be investigating potential criminal violations … nor would the State AG have asked for other Federal OIG Agents participation.

And since I am and individual who tends to protect the Citizens with regards to their property rights within my area (which includes many legally disabled homeowners) … it will be a cold day before I follow your advice.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 04/04/2014 1:38 AM

Seriously … Please show where the statute exempts a last will and testament. Also, your second sentence above regarding Uncle Norman is so stupid is does not compute.

From your own posting [emphasis added]:

Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 04/03/2014 9:59 PM
A
38-10-123. Term conveyance, how construed

"Conveyance", as used in this article, includes every instrument in writing, except a last will and testament, whatever may be its form and by whatever name it may be known in law, by which any estate or interest in lands is created, aliened, assigned, or surrendered.


TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 04/04/2014 1:38 AM

Did not any developer under these statutes “create” said Subdivision pursuant to the CCR’s which in turn are conveyed to a Buyer under that sale agreement?

One would expect that a Developer would have created a subdivision pursuant to a PLAT. Once the subdivision was approved and created, the Developer created deed restrictions and attached them to the individual subdivided plots.

Granted, I could be wrong in the order, but I would think that the land would need to be subdivided prior to any restrictions being placed on the subdivided lots.

I honestly don't know who is correct, or who may only be correct for their State (based on the differences between State statutes). Although I've heard of requirements written into the CC&Rs and/or Bylaws to obtain mortgagee consent prior to amending the document, I've never actually read about any lender, if they were asked, of blocking an amendment. If somebody has documentation of it occurring, I'd appreciate a link to that documentation. In fact, many States, VA being one of them, have adopted statutes that effectively nullify the need for actual consent (VA requires notification to the mortgagee and it's up to the mortgagee to object within 60 days).

Therefore, based on my experience, the reality is that it's likely a non-issue.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Tim:

This is what the CO statutes state:

38-33.3-201. Creation of common interest communities

(1) A common interest community may be created pursuant to this article only by recording a declaration executed in the same manner as a deed and, in a cooperative, by conveying the real estate subject to that declaration to the association. The declaration must be recorded in every county in which any portion of the common interest community is located and must be indexed in the grantee's index in the name of the common interest community and in the name of the association and in the grantor's index in the name of each person executing the declaration. No common interest community is created until the plat or map for the common interest community is recorded.

38-33.3-209. Plats and maps

(1) A plat or map is a part of the declaration and is required for all common interest communities except cooperatives. …..

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:

Does not the plat show the land versus the square footage of the home and if not, how is this relevant to the OP?

I was a member of one HOA (townhouses in MA) where the BOD did come out with a list of changes that could be made to units like windows (same style but larger), awnings, etc. One owner who was a Property Manager for a condo (high rises) and against the changes, said that a mortgage holder would have to be notified and approve the changes. The HOA's lawyer put that to rest real fast. The complainer checked with her own condo lawyer. She went away.

Let us get back to the OP. What he asked/stated was less expensive homes (based on square footage) being built and effecting the value of his larger home and what recourse did he have. My question to him would be where were the restrictions/limitations on the size homes that could be built?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Janet,

Yes, a development is created according to a PLAT. This, to my understanding, is done first.

A "common interest development" is then created when the deed restrictions are created and recorded (which may include or reference the PLAT).

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/04/2014 5:26 PM

Does not the plat show the land versus the square footage of the home and if not, how is this relevant to the OP?

John,

The PLAT would, in my opinion, not be relevant to the OP's question.

The thread appears (at least to me) to have diverted a bit off track.

The thread started out wondering if different size homes within a development affect the value of all homes within the development (caused by changing the minimum square footage requirement in the CC&Rs)

The thread then diverged into if different size homes does affect value, would this then constitute an intent to defraud the lenders who lent money to buyers prior to the change (personally, and in my opinion realistically, I don't think the lender cares one way or the other as long as the buyer makes payments on time in accordance with the terms of the loan).

The thread then appears to diverged into what came first, the chicken or the egg, err the PLAT or the CC&Rs (which can also be questioned as the development or the common interest development)?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BryceW on 04/01/2014 9:09 AM

Do I Have any Recourse at All, My Life Savings are Tied up in My Property. Thanks for any Help

Bryce,

AS for recourse, you will need to initially show damages. My suggestion would be to higher an appraiser to appraise your home. If the current appraisal of your home is higher then the appraisal (not necessarily what you actually paid) when your purchased, then it is likely that the change did not cause you any damage.

If the appraisal is lower then you need to ask the appraiser if the property they compared yours to were also lower than at the time you purchased your property. If they are, then the change still didn't cause you any damage.

If the appraisal does indicate you uncured damage, then you need to consult an attorney as you will need to show if the actual change to the CC&Rs caused all or only some of the damage.

Now, if you are concerned that the smaller homes will bring in buyers who have a lower income bracket than you and the other initial purchasers and you have a concerns of that lower income bracket, then you may simply want to consider moving. I say this because regardless if your concerns are real or perceived, I doubt you will be happy in the development you now find yourself in (one with a minimal square footage being 700 sq feet less than when you purchased).
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Tim,

As I understood the situation, the OP bought one of the first homes in a new development. Shortly afterwards, the developer sold out his interests to a second developer who changed the CC&R's to allow smaller and less expensive homes to be built.

While I feel some sympathy for the OP I do not think he has much of a case. The OP was unable to state how the CC&R's were amended but I am going to assume it was done lawfully as there is no evidence to the contrary. By buying into a partially-completed development the OP should have realized that buyers like himself had no control as long as the developer owned enough of the land to control the CC&R's. Like any other investment, the OP took a risk hoping for a pay-off in the future.

My understanding of loss-of-value complaints is that the plaintiff must suffer an actual economic loss before he can head for trial on the issue of what caused the loss. In this case, the OP has not lost a cent because he has not sold the home. Whatever loss he claims is in his imagination. Even if he hired an appraiser and used that as the basis of his loss, I think the court would dismiss the case because there has been no actual loss.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Larry,

Based only on what has been posted, I agree with you that the OP likely doesn't have much of a case. As you said, until the unit is sold, there are no actual damages (only perceived damages).

I made the suggestion of obtaining an appraisal so Bryce would have some sort of quantitative evidence of any damage at all. Because I am thinking as you are, I further suggested that once he obtained the appraisal, and then only if it did show possible damage, to take the issue to an attorney to explore legal options. The attorney, who would have access to all the paperwork that we don't have, would then be able to render a more informed opinion.

As I said, based on the info that has been provided, I agree with you.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
Janet:

I agree 100% with your principle

however

the ccrs constitute a CHANGEABLE contract (amendable)

since the typical developer is a 'super majority' voter as per the contract he/she, for all practical purposes, can probable amend same at will

the pity is that you, me, and many others have actually SIGNED these 'unconscionable' contracts

we did not

CAVEAT EMPTOR

we only saw low taxes w/o understanding that we would pay assessments 'down the road' to pay for the infrastructure which we were accustomed to funding via taxes

we were rotated into the wood
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 04/05/2014 3:34 PM

since the typical developer is a 'super majority' voter as per the contract he/she, for all practical purposes, can probable amend same at will

the pity is that you, me, and many others have actually SIGNED these 'unconscionable' contracts

Hi JohnB26:

The developer in my situation did not have any "super majority" … all lots have one vote no matter who owns. However, state laws also supersede. Both my husband and I would not have signed any "unconscionable contract". Unlike many others who purchase in an HOA we actually read our contract … and even at one point stated we were not willing to purchase based on one section. To which the developer as his right (owning all property at time), was frantic stating because he owned all property could give waiver regarding said section.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
It looks like Bryce is gone.

I noticed that the indicator for number of posts indicate zero. This indication is typically associated with an individual resigning from the forum.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
.....stating because he owned all property could give waiver regarding said section.


No, he was not empowered to waive a section of the CC&Rs to an individual 'buyer'.

He could only waive HIS personal enforcement of same.

The next BOD is free to enforce the contract which YOU signed.

He probably was, however, allowed to amend AND FILE new CC&Rs.

CAVEAT EMPTOR
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
TimB4,

or a deceased troll
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 04/06/2014 6:18 AM
TimB4,

or a deceased troll

Perhaps. However, the issue is similar to the one UpS is having.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
These issues are all 'breach of contract' matters.

We can talk and talk and talk, but, the posters DID sign the contract.

Even if they did not realize that the RECORDED covenants were a contract!

They would need to either campaign and change the contract (amend the CCRs) AGAIN or seek actual legal advice for their jurisdiction.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 04/06/2014 2:58 PM

These issues are all 'breach of contract' matters.

No necessarily true depending on circumstance ... in my state a couple of HOA's are being investigated under "criminal" violations.

Keep in mind should a property owner who purchased based on CCR’s and which the “construction guidelines” in that document are in essence an “implied and expressed warranty” be defrauded?

Please explain to me why any family (especially a legally disabled family) should be placed in the position after defrauded of having no home, zero equity, and a ruined credit record if they have to “short sale” a home due to changes to the “implied and expressed warranty” they purchased under which was changed only to unjustly enrich others (mainly a.k.a. another developer)? There is also the question that if another developer purchases property and signs documents agreeing to abide by the original CCR’s, then changes those documents … that developer should have chosen NOT to purchase the property if they are only purchasing with intent to defraud others who have PRIOR vested property rights.

Does anyone else not see the potential future housing bubble bursting again? If developers are purchasing properties with intent to defraud other prior investors (both Consumers and Mortgage Lenders) after they purchased based on what had been already implied and expressed and a lot of money invested based on those expressions. If they (both parties) are then placed in a position of having to “short sale” not only do they have a loss, but other surrounding neighborhoods loose when their homes are devalued when the “short sale” home becomes a comparable.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 04/07/2014 12:12 AM

... in my state a couple of HOA's are being investigated under "criminal" violations.

I may have evidence to provide to law enforcement.

Which agencies are investigating which HOA's? Since you are not in law enforcement this must not be a big secret. And don't forget that willfully preventing a person who may be able to provide evidence in a criminal investigation from doing so is obstruction of justice and interfering with an investigation.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
... after they purchased based on what had been already implied and expressed and a lot of money invested based on those expressions...


but the covenant that they signed was amendable

it was amended

if the contract's provisions for amendment were not followed - breach of contract

if not for CAVEAT EMPTOR we would not have capitalism

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here