Signed Form for Violation Notices?

Started by KathyR5 • 30 replies • 2306 views

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KathyR5 (Texas)
Posts: 24

Posted:

Is there a form that is supposed to be signed by the recipient for violation notices? I was told by our President, I am assuming via our new management company, that there is supposed to be a form that the recipient signs to make the violation notice legal, especially in the case where future legal action may need to be taken.
We assumed in the past that the person's signature on the return receipt of a certified letter was sufficient.
Does anyone have any knowledge of this form? We are in Texas.
Thank you.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

We don't seem to have regular contributors from Texas, Kathy. So until someone replies, we hope, ask your property manager to tell you the name and number (or whatever) of the TX code or law that states that.

Are you on the board?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I am not nor do I play a lawyer.

I do believe that a signed receipt of a Certified Letter says the person has been made aware of "it" and no further "acceptance form" is needed.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

If an HOA sent me a violation notice and told me the notice is not legal unless I sign something, what would be the chances of me signing anything?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 03/29/2014 6:34 PM
If an HOA sent me a violation notice and told me the notice is not legal unless I sign something, what would be the chances of me signing anything?

Great point.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KathyR5 on 03/29/2014 4:59 PM

Is there a form that is supposed to be signed by the recipient for violation notices?

For us, that would be the return receipt of the certified mail that was sent when informal notification didn't work.

If the member doesn't pick up the certified mail, we hand deliver it.

KathyR5 (Texas)
Posts: 24

Posted:

Thank you for all of your replies.
I am skeptical that any special "form" is needed. I will try and find out more about this.
I have no doubt that the neighbors we were having problems with would not have signed any "form". We were lucky they even signed for one certified letter.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

A signed certified letter or not signed is still proof notice was given. Some think they do sign it does not count. It does as long as the HOA keeps it for proof of notice. Your HOA needs to havea schedule of fines. A HOA can fine but do not define it. A fine schedule allows members to know what a violation is and the amount or rate of the fines.

Be careful. Liens or foreclosures can not be based on fines in many states. Check your state laws on this first. There is some tricky accounting that can make a fine look like unpaid dues since unpaid dues can be the basis for liens... I do not condone that practice at all but have heard of it. Lawsuits are not the best way to pursue fines or violations. People can move and sell never paying the judgement.

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/30/2014 1:58 PM

It does as long as the HOA keeps it for proof of notice.

This is true. If the issue goes to court, the returned certified letter along with the tracking data provided from the post office can be considered proof of notice.

Letters that are returned unopened, I keep unopened in their file. This way, if needed, the judge could open the letter to see it contains what we say it contains.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

We won our foreclosure case by having copies of the unopened certified letters delivered. NEVER EVER OPEN THEM!!! KEEP THEM SEALED!!! If they come back and it's the RIGHT address that is more proof. Keep in mind the address MUST be the one for the HOA NOT their personal address outside of the HOA if they do not reside there. If they do not reside there, the certified letter must reflect the HOA address of the owner. A "courtesy" notice can go to the other address but for the record the official address is their HOA address.

Even if they refuse to sign the certified letter, there is still PUBLIC notice. Liens and foreclosure intentions are published in the local newspaper and considered PUBLIC notice. The court will also look at that as proper notice to the owner. Keeping a copy of those advertisement will help with a case as well.

Former HOA President

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/30/2014 9:03 PM

Keep in mind the address MUST be the one for the HOA NOT their personal address outside of the HOA if they do not reside there. If they do not reside there, the certified letter must reflect the HOA address of the owner. A "courtesy" notice can go to the other address but for the record the official address is their HOA address.

Wrong!

The association should have asked the member long ago for his mailing address. Normally it will be the same as his residential address within the HOA but not always. If the owner has given you an address where he wishes to receive his mail then that is where all mail for him should be sent.

I own property in an association but I cannot receive mail there. I do not live on the property. No one lives on my property. There is no mailbox. The post office does not deliver to my property. The county has not assigned a street number to my property as I have never applied for any permits. To the best of my knowledge, not one single member of my association is able to receive mail at his property. (Those who do live there rent PO boxes to receive mail.)

My association does have a mailing address for me and that is where they send all notices. If they were to send a notice of a violation to some other address -- even to my property -- eventually they would have to explain to a judge why they sent the notice to somewhere other than the address I had given them.

A number of years ago I managed a self-storage in Tucson, AZ. State law requires that I send certain notices to the tenant's last known address, which he is required to furnish. I had some seasonal tenants whom I knew lived in an RV resort just down the road but the mailing address they gave was to a private mailbox in Sioux Falls, SD. The notices went to Sioux Falls per state law.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

if stand alone home:

the official address would be the address to which the property tax bill is sent

to be SURE of notice sent to there and the actual house

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

The official address in the HOA is your HOA address. It is the actual HOA home that is being foreclosed against. It is good practice to notify you at the other address. However, the LEGAL address of notice is to be the actual HOA property. Even if you do not receive a notice at all due to invalid address or the tenant not forwarding the email to you, the PUBLIC notice in the newspaper is considered LEGAL notice.

Just because that is the way some people do it doesn't mean it's the right way or common. Court doesn't like the battling over the whole "I was NOT notified" excuse. The public notice in the newspaper covers that and delivering like the other John stated "tax record" which the HOA home suffices for proper notification.

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

My understanding is that it is to be sent to the address of record in the Associations files. The address of record being the address of the lot itself or the Association has been instructed by the owner to send all communications to for that Lot.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

We most certainly do NOT send HOA mail to the condo owner's address if the owner has instructed our PM in writing to send mail to a different address. This address usually is where the owner actually resides.

Some HOA mail to owners, e.g., ballots, should not go to renters. And if the owner is in violation of our rules or CC&Rs, it's none of the renter's business!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

The point is that ONLY the HOA address is considered the "legal" address of the owner for the HOA. I did NOT say that one should NOT send a notice to the other address. That is recommended. However, proper official notice goes to the exact HOA address if you want this to hold up in court. The court has to see the certified letter went to the HOA address consider it is the HOA property address that makes it part of the HOA. The other residence address does NOT. You are foreclosing on the HOA lot and the name then attached to the owner of that lot whether they live there or not. I highly recommend sending a letter to the other address on file. However, it does NOT need to be certified to that address. The one that has to be certified is the HOA address. The other is considered a "courtesy". In the end, whether they get these notices are irrelevant as the 3 months worth or so of PUBLIC notice in the newspaper also carries weight to it.

As for the renter receiving the letters or notices, they are NOT supposed to be opening the owner's mail. That is against FEDERAL law. You can NOT open a letter or mail that does NOT have your name on it. If their tenant is not supplying the owner with their mail, then that owner needs to work on that issue. They have a problem with their tenant or they are absentee/investor type owners who don't care. I rented out my HOA home but still had mail coming to it on occasion. Mostly junk mail or those who did not know my new address. My tenant should given it to me when I collected the rent if any did arrive.

In the end, it is just good business practice to address all HOA legal type correspondence to the HOA address. Those are notices of liens or foreclosures. However, notices such as newsletters, ballots, or violation of a renter should be addressed to the known address of the owner outside the HOA. The difference being that one is legal and will go to court. The other correspondences are straight HOA business and will be handled internally amongst just the HOA.

Former HOA President

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

All right, Melissa, you're going to need to show folks who are reading this your evidence that states that mail from the HOA must go to the HOA lot address to be legal.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KathyR5 on 03/29/2014 4:59 PM
Is there a form that is supposed to be signed by the recipient for violation notices? I was told by our President, I am assuming via our new management company, that there is supposed to be a form that the recipient signs to make the violation notice legal, especially in the case where future legal action may need to be taken.
We assumed in the past that the person's signature on the return receipt of a certified letter was sufficient.
Does anyone have any knowledge of this form? We are in Texas.
Thank you.

Hi Kathy:

I agree with many others who have stated send all legal correspondence via "Certified Return Receipt". Note in the letter sent the "Receipt Number" and attach the signed return to the letter sent for your files. That potentially is ultimate proof and letters sent and whether received. If NOT SIGNED for and RETURNED the tne association needs to be sure and just file the UNOPENED ENVELOPE in case needed for future litigation. As stated above ... best to let a future court judge open to disclose contents.

Now, with regards to the address issues being raised I would send first to the address which was given to the HOA by the Owner. If no response or returned ... I would double check via your County Assessor website the address where the "Property Tax Bill" for that particular property is sent and resend to that address if different from what the HOA has on file. This insures your HOA has done everything "reasonably" within your scope to insure the owner has been notified.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/31/2014 1:42 PM
The point is that ONLY the HOA address is considered the "legal" address of the owner for the HOA. I did NOT say that one should NOT send a notice to the other address. That is recommended. However, proper official notice goes to the exact HOA address if you want this to hold up in court. The court has to see the certified letter went to the HOA address consider it is the HOA property address that makes it part of the HOA. The other residence address does NOT. You are foreclosing on the HOA lot and the name then attached to the owner of that lot whether they live there or not. I highly recommend sending a letter to the other address on file. However, it does NOT need to be certified to that address. The one that has to be certified is the HOA address. The other is considered a "courtesy". In the end, whether they get these notices are irrelevant as the 3 months worth or so of PUBLIC notice in the newspaper also carries weight to it.

As for the renter receiving the letters or notices, they are NOT supposed to be opening the owner's mail. That is against FEDERAL law. You can NOT open a letter or mail that does NOT have your name on it. If their tenant is not supplying the owner with their mail, then that owner needs to work on that issue. They have a problem with their tenant or they are absentee/investor type owners who don't care. I rented out my HOA home but still had mail coming to it on occasion. Mostly junk mail or those who did not know my new address. My tenant should given it to me when I collected the rent if any did arrive.

In the end, it is just good business practice to address all HOA legal type correspondence to the HOA address. Those are notices of liens or foreclosures. However, notices such as newsletters, ballots, or violation of a renter should be addressed to the known address of the owner outside the HOA. The difference being that one is legal and will go to court. The other correspondences are straight HOA business and will be handled internally amongst just the HOA.

You are wrong Melissa.

Mail is to be sent to the mailing address on record. It may be the property at the association, or to the address the owner has designated, in writing, as their "official" mailing address. If the property is an investment it will 99% of the time be mailed offsite. If its an investment property, the owner, not the tenant, is responsible for the violation.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I said mail it to BOTH addresses. The official one is the HOA address the other address a courtesy. Your foolish NOT to address BOTH addresses when serving official documents. Court is looking for notice to the property. The owner is looking for it to come to them. Either way it is the address in the HOA that is being addressed and to be duly notified.

Former HOA President

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

Melissa

You are total clueless. Our mailman, who has been delivering to our complex for ten years would not put mail into a mailbox for which they were not familiar with even if the address is correct. If there is a violation, it is against the entity in which the association has a contract, not someone renting the unit even though they may be the offending party. In California, we have a law that mail must be sent to the address the owner has provided whether they live there or not.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

What are you talking about? I am referring to LEGAL notices of liens or foreclosures. It is not for violations of the HOA rules. Violations always go to the owner directly. That is between the HOA and the member. That is INTERNAL correspondence. External correspondence which take a third party like court or legal notification it is the HOA address that is official.

Basically can not use the was not notified argument in court if the address of the certified letter is to the HOA address and is the one in the PUBLIC notice. It is that adress that is being liened or foreclosed on.

Former HOA President

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/03/2014 11:12 PM
What are you talking about? I am referring to LEGAL notices of liens or foreclosures. It is not for violations of the HOA rules. Violations always go to the owner directly. That is between the HOA and the member. That is INTERNAL correspondence. External correspondence which take a third party like court or legal notification it is the HOA address that is official.

Basically can not use the was not notified argument in court if the address of the certified letter is to the HOA address and is the one in the PUBLIC notice. It is that adress that is being liened or foreclosed on.

Melissa,

Foreclosure is a judicial proceeding. Summons and complaint are served in accordance with the rules of civil procedure. In most cases, that means a process server must make a good faith effort to serve process face-to-face with the defendant. How and where that occurs will depend on where the defendant can be found. The court may allow alternative service if the personal service cannot be effected. Most states have adopted rules that require some sort of direct service on the defendant if the lawsuit seeks money damages. Notices in the newspaper would not suffice as there is no proof that the defendant ever read the notice.

If the judge is unsure of what to do if the defendant cannot be located, I have no doubt he will be advised of his options by the attorney for the plaintiff. The last place the judge will go for advice is to an airhead in a trailer in a swamp.

PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708

Posted:

Guys, Gals,

Don't expect Melissa to prove anything. She'd rather continue to argue her BELIEFS.

Like the rest of us she does not practice law.
Moreover she doesn't practice due diligence either and habitually elevates her opinions to facts that she then publishes to people looking for sound advice.

I will add what I believe is the current and relevant Texas statute below.

Notice it does NOT specify that Covenant violation notices be delivered to the address with the HOA or corporation.

§ 209.006. NOTICE REQUIRED BEFORE ENFORCEMENT
ACTION. (a) Before a property owners' association may suspend an
owner's right to use a common area, file a suit against an owner
other than a suit to collect a regular or special assessment or
foreclose under an association's lien, charge an owner for property
damage, or levy a fine for a violation of the restrictions or bylaws
or rules of the association, the association or its agent must give
written notice to the owner by certified mail, return receipt
requested.
(b) The notice must:
(1) describe the violation or property damage that is
the basis for the suspension action, charge, or fine and state any
amount due the association from the owner; and
(2) inform the owner that the owner:
(A) is entitled to a reasonable period to cure
the violation and avoid the fine or suspension unless the owner was
given notice and a reasonable opportunity to cure a similar
violation within the preceding six months; and
(B) may request a hearing under Section 209.007
on or before the 30th day after the date the owner receives the
notice.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 926, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 2002.

JayP3 (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

It's puzzling that a person who is continuously shown to be misinformed would not try to be more thorough in the future.

Even after being told they may be wrong refuses to research or acknowledge error and 'digs in' further eroding credibility.

The statute provided, if current, appears to be 'silent on the issue' of notice location but specific as to who is to be notified.

It is not the prevailing opinion among us that such silence precludes specificity?

Therefor one cannot state in the absence of specificity that something is specifically required.

PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708

Posted:

Correction:

The sentence in my preceding post:
"Notice it does NOT specify that Covenant violation notices be delivered to the address with the HOA or corporation."

Was meant to say:

Notice it does NOT specify that Covenant violation notices be delivered to the address WITHIN the HOA or corporation.

Cheers!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

AGAIN for those who can NOT read... Foreclosure and lien NOTICES go to the address in the HOA. Lawsuit, convenant violations, fine notifications, official notices, complaints, newsletters, and any INTERNAL HOA matter/concerns goes to the address of the owner on record.

The court will look for the evidence the HOA property was notified. It is also the address that will be in the PUBLIC notice of the foreclosure/lien. Those actions are available to the PUBLIC as some lawsuits decisions. Violations of convenants are private and involves only HOA issues.

The public notice part works similar to abandoned property notice or even spouse. Foreclosures can be considered abandoned. Public notices are also used in cases of divorce FYI. If one wants a divorce and the spouse can NOT be located or does not respond, a public notice is to be run for a period of time. After proven no response, then the court grants a divorce by basically default. I mention that process because it works similar to why the public notice is used in foreclosure process. You can check your newspaper in the LEGALS section in the classifieds to see these notices. I have found houses in my own HOA being foreclosed on so was able to get a lien just before it happened. The banks even run these notices.

I can not help you do not like my advice... but it is free... Take it or leave it... but never deny my right to give it...

Former HOA President

PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708

Posted:

To be clear Melissa you're speaking in regards to Alabama law right?

Because, for example, Florida law 720.3085, Payment for assessments; lien claims.—,(4)(b) states:

(b) Be sent by registered or certified mail, return receipt requested, and by first-class United States mail to the parcel owner at his or her last address as reflected in the records of the association, if the address is within the United States, and to the parcel owner subject to the demand at the address of the parcel if the owner’s address as reflected in the records of the association is not the parcel address. If the address reflected in the records is outside the United States, then sending the notice to that address and to the parcel address by first-class United States mail is sufficient.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

AGAIN!!! I would send notice to BOTH addresses regardless. I just may not make the certified letter to both addresses. Just the one address would get the certified mail and that is the HOA address. The other address I would send it as a courtesy. How hard is this to understand? Notice is given. End of story and proof of notice. Which is all I need for court.

BTW... I will not be able to post for a bit. I severely sprained my wrist and will no longer be able to type. So feel free to kick someone when they are down if you must. I am out till my wrist gets better...

Former HOA President

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/04/2014 3:50 PM
BTW... I will not be able to post for a bit. I severely sprained my wrist and will no longer be able to type. So feel free to kick someone when they are down if you must. I am out till my wrist gets better...

Any volunteer??

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Mel

I hope the sprain is not the Margarita glass holding hand nor the hand you use to...well...never mind......

Soak in hot water and Epsom Salts.

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