BettyO1 (California)
Posts: 104
Posts: 104
Posted:
Should board meeting agenda announce anticipated presence of association attorney at meeting? Is it required?
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Attorney attendance at meeting
Started by BettyO1 • 14 replies • 1704 views
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TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Betty,
Did you check on Davis-Stirling.com ?
If you did, what did that site say about the issue?
Did you check on Davis-Stirling.com ?
If you did, what did that site say about the issue?
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Well, Betty, as you know, agendas for open meetings of the board must be posted 4 days ahead of the meeting. If your attorney has a role in the meeting and is listed on the agenda, you must post the name, of course.
But even if s/he doesn't have an actual role on the agenda, why wouldn't the board want to inform homeowners that s/he's attending?
BTW, why is the attorney attending?
But even if s/he doesn't have an actual role on the agenda, why wouldn't the board want to inform homeowners that s/he's attending?
BTW, why is the attorney attending?
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
To avoid confusion, I should note that the public posting of agendas somewhere in an obvious place on the HOA premises that I note above is a law in Calif. I don't which other states have this law.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Should the Board announce? That is an ethical question. In my opinion, as Carol pointed out, if the individual is going to speak at the meeting or be available to answer questions about a topic, then yes, this should be announced to the membership. The added benefit being that there may be an increase in the participation.
Is it required? I expect that you are asking if it's required by law. Probably not. The Association is only required to provide notice of the meeting as outlined in CA laws. My understanding (but I have not checked the law) is that in CA this only requires:
Notice of Time
Notice of Date
Notice of Place
Notice of how a member may participate electronically (if applicable)
Notice of Purpose of the meeting
Copy of Agenda OR Notice of items to be brought to the membership for action
Is it required? I expect that you are asking if it's required by law. Probably not. The Association is only required to provide notice of the meeting as outlined in CA laws. My understanding (but I have not checked the law) is that in CA this only requires:
Notice of Time
Notice of Date
Notice of Place
Notice of how a member may participate electronically (if applicable)
Notice of Purpose of the meeting
Copy of Agenda OR Notice of items to be brought to the membership for action
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
To elaborate a little on Tim's list. His last item was "Copy of Agenda OR Notice of items to be brought to the membership for action." (In a board of directors meeting, the membership listens, but matters aren't "brought" to them.)
The agenda must be posted per Cali state law. It needs to include everything that directors will discuss in the sequence that the agenda items will be discussed. If the attorney will add a legal opinion about some matter that the board's considering, for example, then the attorney must be listed on the agenda.
If the attorney only will be observing this board meeting, so far as I know, there is no legal requirement that s/he be listed on the agenda. But, with Tim, if homeowners know in advance that the attorney will be at the meeting, it might encourage attendance. And to not let h'owners know might suggest the Board is hiding something or is afraid that a h'owner will ask an "embarrassing" question during the state-required open forum portion of the meeting.
So out of respect for owners and as a courtesy to them, I'd put the attorney on the agenda somewhere and the reason(s) for here/his attendance.
The agenda must be posted per Cali state law. It needs to include everything that directors will discuss in the sequence that the agenda items will be discussed. If the attorney will add a legal opinion about some matter that the board's considering, for example, then the attorney must be listed on the agenda.
If the attorney only will be observing this board meeting, so far as I know, there is no legal requirement that s/he be listed on the agenda. But, with Tim, if homeowners know in advance that the attorney will be at the meeting, it might encourage attendance. And to not let h'owners know might suggest the Board is hiding something or is afraid that a h'owner will ask an "embarrassing" question during the state-required open forum portion of the meeting.
So out of respect for owners and as a courtesy to them, I'd put the attorney on the agenda somewhere and the reason(s) for here/his attendance.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 03/19/2014 10:08 AM
To elaborate a little on Tim's list. His last item was "Copy of Agenda OR Notice of items to be brought to the membership for action." (In a board of directors meeting, the membership listens, but matters aren't "brought" to them.)
To elaborate a little on Tim's list. His last item was "Copy of Agenda OR Notice of items to be brought to the membership for action." (In a board of directors meeting, the membership listens, but matters aren't "brought" to them.)
Thanks Carol. I initially read the post that it was a general membership meeting.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 03/19/2014 10:08 AM
If the attorney will add a legal opinion about some matter that the board's considering, for example, then the attorney must be listed on the agenda.
If the attorney will add a legal opinion about some matter that the board's considering, for example, then the attorney must be listed on the agenda.
If attorneys "must" be listed on the agenda, then wouldn't other speakers be required to be listed? Suppose your association is asking a paving contractor for advice about repairing the roads or parking lot. Is there a requirement that he "must" be identified on the agenda since he will render a professional opinion? What happens if he can't attend and his partner shows up instead?
I found no requirement in CA Civil Code §4920 requiring that an agenda must identify those who may speak. Paragraph (d) merely states, "Notice of a board meeting shall contain the agenda for the meeting."
I also checked Civil Code §4930 (Limitations on Meeting Content) and found no requirement there for identifying those who will speak.
My research found no requirement that the attorney must be named on the agenda before he may attend or speak.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
So, Larry, you cited Civil Code 4920, which says, "Notice of a board meeting shall contain the agenda for the meeting." But there's more to it because items/topics that are not on the agenda posted for owners may not be discussed and no action (votes) may be taken.
CA Civil Code 4930 (Part of the Open Meeting Act) “ . .. the board may not discuss or take action on any item at a nonemergency meeting unless the item was placed on the agenda included in the notice that was distributed . . .”
If an attorney, contractor or any other guest will be attending to speak, give an opinion, show pictures of construction defect or whatever, the individuals or their firms constitute an agenda item.
The spirit and intent of this legislation is so that HOA members know in advance of the open meetings the topics of discussion and action items. We have several regular attendees who show up no matter how uninteresting the agenda. Others attend, though, based on their interest in one or more agenda items. So," Cracks in Ramp Pavement, XXX Paving Co." is informative and doesn't leave owners in the dark. Similarly, "Legal Opinion on Proposed Rule Changes," HOA law firm.
Haven't you, Larry, belonged to other organizations where guest speakers, etc., are listed on the agenda? I certainly have.
I won't quibble with you, Larry, about what if Mr. X doesn't show up and instead it's Ms. Y. The point is that owners are aware in advance of the agenda item and that there'll be a specialists who'll address it.
I did not state that if the attorney (or whomever) merely is attending and has no meeting role that she's required he be on the agenda--in fact I stated the opposite. But it seems like a good idea to me as it helps inform owners and may attract, as Tim notes, more attendance. The more openness the better in my book.
Now the OP said that there is an "anticipated presence" of their attorney. Her Board may do as it wishes re: the agenda. Our Board would note that presence on the agenda as a courtesy to members.
CA Civil Code 4930 (Part of the Open Meeting Act) “ . .. the board may not discuss or take action on any item at a nonemergency meeting unless the item was placed on the agenda included in the notice that was distributed . . .”
If an attorney, contractor or any other guest will be attending to speak, give an opinion, show pictures of construction defect or whatever, the individuals or their firms constitute an agenda item.
The spirit and intent of this legislation is so that HOA members know in advance of the open meetings the topics of discussion and action items. We have several regular attendees who show up no matter how uninteresting the agenda. Others attend, though, based on their interest in one or more agenda items. So," Cracks in Ramp Pavement, XXX Paving Co." is informative and doesn't leave owners in the dark. Similarly, "Legal Opinion on Proposed Rule Changes," HOA law firm.
Haven't you, Larry, belonged to other organizations where guest speakers, etc., are listed on the agenda? I certainly have.
I won't quibble with you, Larry, about what if Mr. X doesn't show up and instead it's Ms. Y. The point is that owners are aware in advance of the agenda item and that there'll be a specialists who'll address it.
I did not state that if the attorney (or whomever) merely is attending and has no meeting role that she's required he be on the agenda--in fact I stated the opposite. But it seems like a good idea to me as it helps inform owners and may attract, as Tim notes, more attendance. The more openness the better in my book.
Now the OP said that there is an "anticipated presence" of their attorney. Her Board may do as it wishes re: the agenda. Our Board would note that presence on the agenda as a courtesy to members.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
I can give an example of an attorney present at a general meeting.
The attorney was requested for discussion of lien and foreclosure in executive session, which is held an hour prior to the general meeting. They were asked to stand and critique the proceedings of the general session for a board training session the attorney was to provide the following month.
The agenda for the executive session available to the members would only contain the five subject allowable to be discussed in ES. I don't and the association hasn't, posted the names of the individuals from the various companies who may come to speak or give a presentation.
Now, if I were to get the Mayor or maybe a City Council Member to a meeting, for publicity reasons, I would want to include their name and title, what they were there to discuss, so I could get as many interested residents to the meeting for the speakers benefit. I would also send by mail, email blast and post signs.
The attorney was requested for discussion of lien and foreclosure in executive session, which is held an hour prior to the general meeting. They were asked to stand and critique the proceedings of the general session for a board training session the attorney was to provide the following month.
The agenda for the executive session available to the members would only contain the five subject allowable to be discussed in ES. I don't and the association hasn't, posted the names of the individuals from the various companies who may come to speak or give a presentation.
Now, if I were to get the Mayor or maybe a City Council Member to a meeting, for publicity reasons, I would want to include their name and title, what they were there to discuss, so I could get as many interested residents to the meeting for the speakers benefit. I would also send by mail, email blast and post signs.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Forgot to add and it' important. The OP didn't mention WHY the attorney was attending the meeting.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 03/20/2014 11:40 AM
The spirit and intent of this legislation is so that HOA members know in advance of the open meetings the topics of discussion and action items.
The spirit and intent of this legislation is so that HOA members know in advance of the open meetings the topics of discussion and action items.
No dispute. My point is that you wrote that some elements are required that are not required by statute. While it is a courtesy to members to advise them by way of agenda items that a particular party will be present, failure to name him does not prevent that party from speaking.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Larry, I've said, poorly apparently, at least three times that I don't think any guest's mere presence requires anything on the agenda. The CEO of our MC, for instance, attends about 3-4 times a year. We do not put the person's name on our agenda.
We do as you do, Richard. For executive session, we only post the topics not the names of anyone involved, e.g., the landscape vendors we interviewed last month. We indeed hired a new firm. Our grounds (all planters in our urban setting--no turf) have deteriorated badly over the past several months. If we wanted, we could invite the company owner to an open meeting to to welcome him and so that he could briefly relate his plans to homeowners for the next few months, etc. This would be reassuring to the several owners who've complained about our grounds. If we did invite him, his participation would be on that agenda.
We do as you do, Richard. For executive session, we only post the topics not the names of anyone involved, e.g., the landscape vendors we interviewed last month. We indeed hired a new firm. Our grounds (all planters in our urban setting--no turf) have deteriorated badly over the past several months. If we wanted, we could invite the company owner to an open meeting to to welcome him and so that he could briefly relate his plans to homeowners for the next few months, etc. This would be reassuring to the several owners who've complained about our grounds. If we did invite him, his participation would be on that agenda.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 03/20/2014 4:49 PM
We do not put the person's name on our agenda.
We do not put the person's name on our agenda.
It should be noted in the minutes that the attorney (or anyone else (unless it's a large crowd)) was in attendance.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Yes, Tim. Good for others to know. We record the name of any non-owner in the minutes under "Also Present," which includes our PM & Asst. PM.
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