DavidS71 (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posts: 7
Posted:
Is my interpretation of Florida Statue 720.303.5.3 excluding management salary from being considered "personnel" and therefore restricted, is available to any Association member upon request?
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Management Salary Access
Started by DavidS71 • 9 replies • 2437 views
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TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
David,
Per FL 720.303(5)3:
Notwithstanding this paragraph, the following records are not accessible to members or parcel owners:
3. Personnel records of association or management company employees, including, but not limited to, disciplinary, payroll, health, and insurance records. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “personnel records” does not include written employment agreements with an association or management company employee or budgetary or financial records that indicate the compensation paid to an association or management company employee.
The statute appears to be very clear, the salary of management company employees can be withheld from the membership.
The section I believe you are referring to, in my opinion, is saying that the Association must make the contract between the Association and the MC. Additionally, the Association can't obscure the amount paid when producing financial statements for review by the member. Therefore, your Associations budget and/or Income and Expense statement should tell you what the Association is paying on any contract (including the MC contract) or to an independent contractor.
Per FL 720.303(5)3:
Notwithstanding this paragraph, the following records are not accessible to members or parcel owners:
3. Personnel records of association or management company employees, including, but not limited to, disciplinary, payroll, health, and insurance records. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “personnel records” does not include written employment agreements with an association or management company employee or budgetary or financial records that indicate the compensation paid to an association or management company employee.
The statute appears to be very clear, the salary of management company employees can be withheld from the membership.
The section I believe you are referring to, in my opinion, is saying that the Association must make the contract between the Association and the MC. Additionally, the Association can't obscure the amount paid when producing financial statements for review by the member. Therefore, your Associations budget and/or Income and Expense statement should tell you what the Association is paying on any contract (including the MC contract) or to an independent contractor.
DavidS71 (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posts: 7
Posted:
Thank you for the quick response, but...since the statue paragraph clearly states that the the term "personnel records" does not include .....compensation....then that infers that the information is not "personnel" and therefore can be requested by any association member without having to look at a budget. Your response appears to be directed to a contract with a Management Company which I agree would be a total dollar value.
I should have made it clear that the salary I am interested in obtaining is for our General Manager, who is a direct contracted employee of the Association.
I would appreciate any additional opinion you may have.
I should have made it clear that the salary I am interested in obtaining is for our General Manager, who is a direct contracted employee of the Association.
I would appreciate any additional opinion you may have.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Well, we will simply have to agree to disagree. I am not an attorney and I do not work in the legal profession. My layman's opinion is that the statute is very plain:
"the following records are not accessible to members. . .management company employees, including. . . payroll"
You may or may not be right. Of course, even if someone on this site does agree with your interpretation that doesn't mean that your interpretation is correct any more then if someone agrees with my interpretation that my interpretation is correct.
When there is a disagreement in the interpretation of a statute or section of the Associations governing documents, then the issue needs to be brought to a third party (a mediator or the courts) for a ruling as to who's interpretation is correct. Expecting that your Association will interpret that statute to not provide salary information, it would be up to you to initiate any legal proceeding to have that section ruled upon.
Since you live in FL, I would have suggested the FL Ombudsman office. However, since you cited FL 720, I don't think that office would be able to assist. You might simply want to contact a local attorney or search FL Attorney newsletters or an internet search on the topic of membership records access.
Here are a few that I located:
HOA Record Requests - Statutes Without Teeth 2012 Orlando Sentinel article.
Some Condo/HOA Records are Off Limits to Owners2012 article in the FL condo and HOA law blog.
Official Records of our Condominium Association by the Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares, and Mobile Homes. Provided because most FL condo laws and HOA laws parallel each other.
Hope it helps,
Tim
"the following records are not accessible to members. . .management company employees, including. . . payroll"
You may or may not be right. Of course, even if someone on this site does agree with your interpretation that doesn't mean that your interpretation is correct any more then if someone agrees with my interpretation that my interpretation is correct.
When there is a disagreement in the interpretation of a statute or section of the Associations governing documents, then the issue needs to be brought to a third party (a mediator or the courts) for a ruling as to who's interpretation is correct. Expecting that your Association will interpret that statute to not provide salary information, it would be up to you to initiate any legal proceeding to have that section ruled upon.
Since you live in FL, I would have suggested the FL Ombudsman office. However, since you cited FL 720, I don't think that office would be able to assist. You might simply want to contact a local attorney or search FL Attorney newsletters or an internet search on the topic of membership records access.
Here are a few that I located:
HOA Record Requests - Statutes Without Teeth 2012 Orlando Sentinel article.
Some Condo/HOA Records are Off Limits to Owners2012 article in the FL condo and HOA law blog.
Official Records of our Condominium Association by the Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares, and Mobile Homes. Provided because most FL condo laws and HOA laws parallel each other.
Hope it helps,
Tim
DavidS71 (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posts: 7
Posted:
Again, thank you...Guess I will have to pursue this question of salary further.
David
David
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
David:
My personal opinion is it depends on what you are asking for?
3. Personnel records of association or management company employees, including, but not limited to, disciplinary, payroll, health, and insurance records. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “personnel records” does not include written employment agreements with an association or management company employee or budgetary or financial records that indicate the compensation paid to an association or management company employee.
Are you requesting to see an employment agreement or the budget/financial records for the HOA? Or, are you asking for copies of their paycheck?
My personal opinion is it depends on what you are asking for?
3. Personnel records of association or management company employees, including, but not limited to, disciplinary, payroll, health, and insurance records. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “personnel records” does not include written employment agreements with an association or management company employee or budgetary or financial records that indicate the compensation paid to an association or management company employee.
Are you requesting to see an employment agreement or the budget/financial records for the HOA? Or, are you asking for copies of their paycheck?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
David,
If the salary you want to find out is an independent contractor (like PM hired by the Association directly vs. through a MC) then simply obtaining a copy of the contract will tell you how much the PM makes and per the statute you are allowed to see the contracts.
If the salary you want to find out is an employee of the MC, the Association isn't going to have this information and, to be honest, you have no standing with the MC to even request it.
Honestly, if the work of the MC/PM is satisfactory, then I suspect that there should be no issues regarding how much they are making. If the work is unsatisfactory, again it won't matter what they are making because the issue is that the work is unsatisfactory and perhaps a new PM/MC should be looked for.
If you think that they are paying an MC or PM too much money and you think that the salary should be cut to minimize assessments, then you need to be gathering support and volunteer to serve on the Board or on a committee. Often, a MC/PM is hired when the work load is too great for the number of individuals willing to volunteer their time. If this is the case, the fix isn't to lower the salary it's to increase the number of individuals willing to volunteer so you don't need to pay someone to do the job (as the volunteer is now doing it).
If the salary you want to find out is an independent contractor (like PM hired by the Association directly vs. through a MC) then simply obtaining a copy of the contract will tell you how much the PM makes and per the statute you are allowed to see the contracts.
If the salary you want to find out is an employee of the MC, the Association isn't going to have this information and, to be honest, you have no standing with the MC to even request it.
Honestly, if the work of the MC/PM is satisfactory, then I suspect that there should be no issues regarding how much they are making. If the work is unsatisfactory, again it won't matter what they are making because the issue is that the work is unsatisfactory and perhaps a new PM/MC should be looked for.
If you think that they are paying an MC or PM too much money and you think that the salary should be cut to minimize assessments, then you need to be gathering support and volunteer to serve on the Board or on a committee. Often, a MC/PM is hired when the work load is too great for the number of individuals willing to volunteer their time. If this is the case, the fix isn't to lower the salary it's to increase the number of individuals willing to volunteer so you don't need to pay someone to do the job (as the volunteer is now doing it).
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Unless I am mistaken, David wants to know the specific salary of their Associations General Manager.
Generally such information is considered personal and only known to the BOD.
Such information is included along with other information like Management/Personnel cost of say $150,000.00 as a line item in the budget, but it is not broken down to say General Manage Salary of $75,000.00.
Such issues are typically discussed in Executive Session as they are personal and confidential in nature.
Generally such information is considered personal and only known to the BOD.
Such information is included along with other information like Management/Personnel cost of say $150,000.00 as a line item in the budget, but it is not broken down to say General Manage Salary of $75,000.00.
Such issues are typically discussed in Executive Session as they are personal and confidential in nature.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
I agree with Tim that your question presents a vague answer because you're not asking to review your HOA General Manager's personnel files.....you want to know the HOA salary expenditure for its employee in question. I don't believe that's privileged information and should be as transparent as any other expense. To me, it's the same as hiring a property management company and noting the contract cost in your budget.
If transparent, I can tell you, that the information would be used to bludgeon the property manager with accusations they're over-paid with mythical "lower-paid yet more competent" managers being located where the grass is always greener.
However, if transparent, it would allow for annual reviews of the cost of hiring your own manager versus using a company.
Good question, David.
If transparent, I can tell you, that the information would be used to bludgeon the property manager with accusations they're over-paid with mythical "lower-paid yet more competent" managers being located where the grass is always greener.
However, if transparent, it would allow for annual reviews of the cost of hiring your own manager versus using a company.
Good question, David.
DavidS71 (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posts: 7
Posted:
Thank you to all who responded...The Board President has called for a special meeting to discuss this issue...I will push to have a legal opinion from our Boards attorney. If I receive an answer, I will post it at a future date.
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