board education

I am so frustrated with my self-managed HOA that I no longer participate in any association functions. After years of interaction with people who ignore our covenants, by-laws, state laws, rules, regs., roberts rules of order- and mounting late assessments; I just can't take it any more. I have tried in vain to provide info, links to web sites and seminars, speak out, join committees, run for the board. Everthing. I give up like the other 145 house holds in my HOA. Apathy abounds.
What Virginia needs is training for self-managed HOA's. Board members are not familiar with how to run an HOA and do whatever they want. Management companies now have to get training. We need self-managed boards to have it also.
Does anyone agree?

That's a shame.
By not participating you are allowing those who are willing to participate to make the decisions that will affect your life and your property.

However, that is a choice everyone has to make on their own.


Did you serve on the Board?

I can understand the frustration. Unfortunately, if individuals like yourself don't participate to try and make these things happen, then they will simply continue to occur.


Provide info to whom, the Board or the membership?

All anyone can do is provide access to the information and be willing to take the time to explain it so those who are interested can understand it. You can't force individuals to attend or, if the do attend, actually learn.


Again, it's a shame that you have come to this decision.

Apathy, in my opinion, exists because:

1) Indivudals are happy with the way things are being done
2) The problems don't affect their wallet/pocketbook
3) Individuals bought into an HOA without understanding that they need to participate more than simply paying assessments and complying with the rules.

Even in Associations with management companies or property managers, there still has to be a Board of Directors, Officers and various committees.


Sometimes this is true. Other times, the individuals will take the time to learn.
I've also found that if there is a perception that someone knows how things are to be ran (either by presentation or simply the length of serving) others will take their que from that individual. They know that they are unaware and if it appears that you know what is happening, then they will often defer to your opinion.


Yep, that was recently adopted in VA.
They are also required to have continuing education.

The problem is, just like the seminars and information you provided, there is zero guarentee that the person attending actually understands what the information is. Certifications and degrees only indicate that someone was able to pass a test with the minimum score OR that they simply attended a seminar. It is zero indication that they are actually any good in the profession that they have chosen.


This has been discussed in an earlier thread. See:Subject: Making unqualified volunteers qualified

There are questions that are unanswered. Here are some of them:

1) Are you willing to pay for the class and the time (as the individual may need to take time off of work) needed for the individual to attend?
2) With minimal participation now, would requiring training shrink the volunteers more or increase them? (I'm thinking decrease them)
3) If a Director is certified do they lose the legal benefits of being a volunteer?
4) If an individual is certified, should they then receive compensation for serving in a position that this certification was required?

Our attorney offers monthly seminars on different Association management topics. I've attended a couple of them. Unfortunately, since these seminars are during the day, I am unable to make all of them unless I take time off of work. Taking time off of work to attend a seminar is the same as taking vacation time away from my family.

Therefore, although I am happy to volunteer my time (and am one of the individuals who will take the time to verify a statute or governing document prior to making a decision) if I had to become certified or take mandated training, I would likely quit volunteering. I spend enough time away from my family completing my volunteer duties for the Association. It is all the time I'm willing to give (in fact, I'm trying to cut that amount down).

Karen - Me to. I agree with you. In NC there are bills pending regarding this. I just don't know how it will be enforced.

Colorado now requires annual owner education:

38-33.3-209.7. Owner education

(1) The association shall provide, or cause to be provided, education to owners at no cost on at least an annual basis as to the general operations of the association and the rights and responsibilities of owners, the association, and its executive board under Colorado law. The criteria for compliance with this section shall be determined by the executive board.

Easiest if performed at the annual meeting. The problem is not everyone attends and you have some who just do not understand some things no matter how many different ways an item is explained.

Deez there is a completely different view as a board member that you don't see. Criticize their decisions all you want, but walk in their shoes a mile and you will be asking for compensation for "War wounds". Not saying that yours or anyone else's HOA doesn't do things wrong or "illegally". Just saying you have to see the OTHER side of things as well.

"Illegal" in the context of a HOA isn't the same as "illegal" you go to jail kind of thing. A HOA is ONLY managed by it's members for it's members. Which means the board is elected to represent the majority of what the members want. The rules being either soo old and not applicable any more, may mean they don't follow them to a "T". Doesn't mean they are "illegal" or doing things wrong. It just may mean that the rules aren't what members want and they can't afford to change them.

A HOA is ONLY funded by the members FOR the members. They can ONLY use the money they collect to pay for the things they want. No HOA needs an attorney on "Retainer". That's more fantasy than reality. It's cheaper and more flexible for a HOA to hire attorney's on a case to case basis. Lawyers are usually needed for things like filing liens/foreclosures, representing the HOA in court, and filing record changes at the courthouse. Keeping one around simply for advice and feedback is just an "extra" that drains the budget. Your asking they have one is not exactly the best solution for a HOA.

Your documents are PUBLIC. They are available at the courthouse or online. Those are your CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation. By-laws do NOT require to be filed but can be with the CC&R's as a "courtesy". It's the CC&R's that are the actual deed restrictions and to be followed. I don't know what your need was to hire a lawyer to get the HOA to provide this documents and spend the money of all the members on it.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. You can't get around that statement no matter how much one tries or wishes. It is a FACT. However, stating that FACT, doesn't mean you should not sue. It simply means you need to accept this fact if you decide to sue as the consequence of your actions. Don't be all surprised if other members are NOT happy with you. Your going to sue your HOA, you should do it with the group of others that agree with you, than do it individually. Still if you have a group of members upset, your HOA rules do allow you all to act as a group to make changes without ever going to court.

You want change then do it yourself. Learn to follow the rules. That means gathering those wonderful votes to either vote the board out or to gather votes to rewrite the documents. Which can be done if you follow the Percentage of owners that will need to sign or meet to make those changes. It's going to cost a few thousand dollars to file, hire a lawyer, and lots of time collecting the needed signatures. It took us nearly 3 years and over 2K. Does your HOA have a few thousand to spare on such a project? If not, then that is why your board is not pursuing this option. It can only do what it can afford. End of story.

All I am saying is the perception can be off by members if they don't understand the reasons behind the decisions. It's NOT black and white and all documented. Does that make it "wrong" "illegal" or "run by idiots"? No. I don't think so. You do the best that you can with what you got. If you got apathy in your HOA, then you do what is possible. The apathetic want you to do the impossible.

My rule has always been and still is... Do NOT present a problem unless you have a solution in mind. It does not have to be the 'right' solution. It just has to be a direction for the problem to be resolved with. Your HOA isn't following the rules you want them to? Then look that rule up and quote it. No need to get a lawyer involved. Bring the rules documents to the meeting and quote them. A lawyer can help TRANSLATE what that means if you want. However, a good business practice in a HOA is to have the rules available at the meetings and refer to them during to answer questions.

Rules get outdated or updated all the time. It's not always possible for your HOA to keep up with them. With everyone here wanting people to go to the legislature to make changes, they neglect to realize once those are adopted, your HOA has to adapt it's rules. Which requires to be filed, re-written, re-distributed (at cost or charged), and lawyers hired to file/write/advise. It is ALL in your documents to make the changes you want. Those changes just have to be what the MAJORITY wants.

Remember most people seem to skim past that statement it must comply with local, state, and federal laws. They want them spelled out for them or claim illegal... Plus many do not know the new laws and board members do not keep up with them either. They barely keep up with the existing rules.

Example: Satellite dishes. Those are allowed now by the Feds. Most HOA documents still have them banned. The old huge discs existed back then and were eyesores. New technology they are smaller. People still come on here complaining about not having or moving their dishes. No one updated their documents to reflect this change. So guess who gets accused of illegal rule following and someone is not doing anything about it?

There are some things that do need spelled out. However, considering the expense and time of updating, it gets put on the back burner. Then you get those who now insist on following such and such rule without the concept of why it existed in the first place. Satelite dishes were banned for size. They were not banned because of any laws.

Take time to read your documents and again learn to write your comments by referencing the rule in violation. This educates all involved and gives the oportunity for those to decise to change it if it does not work or apply anymore.

Melissa, you wrote the sweeping generalization: "Remember most people seem to skim past that statement it must comply with local, state, and federal laws. They want them spelled out for them or claim illegal... Plus many do not know the new laws and board members do not keep up with them either."

Perhaps your Board didn't know when new laws were passed that affected your HOA, but our Board certainly does!! And I think many other Boards knew these changes too! If the law conflicts with our governing documents, let's say our CC&Rs, we publicize the change in a newsletter or elsewhere. In Calif. there is NO REQUIREMENT to actually change a governing document with Owner votes when a new local, state, federal or other law changes. I'm thinking that might apply in many states but I don't know. What is the requirement in Alabama, Melissa?

Our old CC&Rs still say that dishes are banned, but for several years now, our Rules & Regs state those of 39 sq. inches are permitted. (I think we have two.) It cost nothing to insert that in our Rules and required no homeowner vote.

JohnC, I purposely used an example of federal law that Melissa mentioned. It supersedes our CC&R on that topic. I would never suggest that any board do what you say "many" do "all the time."

I am sorry for you troubles, Dee.

We just found this to true, BOD cannot write a resolution or such to "over rule" the CCR's. It is not legal to do so. The CCR has to be amended.

DeeZ
I am so sorry you are going through such stress. I appreciate your understanding and all of the replies I have received. I have attended all meetings and participated in four committees throughout the last 8 years up until a year ago. I tried to focus only on important issues such as by-laws, deed of deciation, state laws, architectual rules; things like that. And quoted the appropriate documents. I was told we didn't have to follow them. Sometimes I was just looked at and met with silence. Members were allowed to make rude remarks and even call me bitch. These members were usually past board members or board members spouses. Those who agreed with me were silent during meetings, but would speak to me afterwards to say they agreed. They were afraid to speak up for fear of being treated badly. I did try to run for the board and the incumbants went out and got proxies from those who never attend meetings telling people I was bad for the board; and successfully voted me out.

It is time for new board members this month. Four board positons are open. The president posted a notice on our bulletin board that there was 1 opening. Our newsletter was just delivered. In it is stated that there are 4 positions. The 3 canditates listed are the current board members who are rerunning, leaving one position vacant. This means the 3 current board members whose terms are up get re-elected- no contest, because the vacancies were not announced. The president is one of these 3. This gives me an opportunity to go to the meeting and nominate myself for the 1 position left. Maybe I could get some changes made. But maybe I would risk a divorce in the process because of all the problems with this community and that would definately not be okay with me.....(my husband is as frustrated as I am and will not even talk about the assocaition).

Karen

Just to clarify, there are 4 positions on the BOD that will be up for election. There are 3 announced candidates (incumbents). Unless more then 4 run, by default they will be re-elected. You may not like this, but there is nothing wrong with that.

What you might consider is getting some others that you agree with to run. Get say a total of 6 running for the 4 positions. Of course this could mean that you might not get elected.

Take JohnC46's advice, Karen. Make sure a real election occurs and that all of your HOA & state's election rules are followed. You must rally others.

Sometimes. Unfortunately, too often, it's the adage of ignorance is bliss.
It could be that if they knew what was actually happening, they would be ticked off.


SG3,

If you truly believe this I don't understand why you are part of this forum. Most of the posters on this site have seen things that were simply wrong within their own Associations and took steps to correct it, and succeeded in correcting it.

Nobody will tell you it will be easy or that it will happen overnight. In my case, it took three years of educating the membership before there were any signs of membership becoming concerned. However, when they did become concerned, things happened and changes were made on the Board. It was a year after changes initially started when I was elected to the Board. The things I saw as a member were nothing compared to the things I saw as a Director. However, things continued to change and continued to get better.

What I'm saying is that there are things you can do about it. It simply depends if you're willing to be in it for the long haul or not.

SG3,

Perhaps it's my memory. Please show me where I stated that there is nothing you can do about a self managed board. I was of the impression I was disagreeing with your statement, which I quoted.

Of course you can try. We had organized groups and lawyers Involved whether it was the developer, self managed, or an MC. Lots of legal fees people need to be prepared for. Talk talk talk that never resolved the problems.

No, Melissa,

the directors are elected to run a not-for-profit CORPORATION

NOT

cater to the whims of the members

AND

they are bound by state corporate law

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS FACT - DON'T LIKE IT - IT REMAINS A FACT