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AnneN (California)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Just joined. Very glad to find this resource. I'm hoping it will help in many issues we have.

I have one hot topic and can't find my answer. I'm just hoping I can find a quick reference. I will hire an attorney if I can't find what I'm looking for.

I am president of board with an owner problem. I live in CA. Our HOA is responsible for maintenance of exteriors and roof. CC&Rs clearly state that owners are responsible for windows. I want to replace my skylights with ones that open. That has been tentatively agreed upon contingent on getting architectural approval on look - I am first to want to get opening skylights so we will have to come up with a standard type.

Others have replaced skylights in the past and always used our regular contractor. I have asked whether I would be allowed to get bids for this job and have been told no - that I must use the contractor the Association uses. The reason is that if I don't use this one vendor, there will be questions of liability should leaks occur. There has been no such requirement for replacement of regular windows.

Since I am financially responsible for windows, I'm wondering whether I have any recourse. Clearly this is a financial issue for me. I have every intention of using a licensed roofer to do the job - just want the freedom to bid it out.

I'm also being told that if I don't use the approved vendor, I will be required to sign a waiver, holding the Association blameless should there be leaks, and that this document would have to move with the title should I sell (which certainly would make it very difficult to sell my property so I'm feeling as if I'm being blackmailed).

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Anne, skylights are not vertical windows. They can be suseptable to leakage. Therefore, I believe your Board is being very reasonable.
AnneN (California)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Reasonble to require a licensed contractor absolutely. I have no issue with that. My issue is that I am being prevented from bidding the job and awarding it to any reliable, licensed, bonded roofer.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am confused. Your the president correct? So what prevents you from changing the policy? My HOA was similar before I took over. We basically went with the "status quo" and the contractor who was either the president or friends with him. (The previous president was an unlicensed "Do-It-Yourselfer" who ripped off residents and elderly).
I went to the board and had a vote with my board members. I explained to them that for every job over $100 (whatever is considered "large" project) has to have 3 bids. It didn't matter if I was the one getting the bids or other people did it. The process was that 3 bids had to be submitted and reviewed by the board.
Now, we didn't stop using the "contractor", he had to submit bids too. We also didn't go with the cheapest bids either. We went with the bids that made the most sense and offered the best options.
Being "forced" to hire this contractor doesn't make sense. The only contractors you have in your HOA are the ones that the HOA has a contract with. It may be this contractor offers a discount for using them. Some contractors do setup an unofficial agreement if you use them exclusively, you get 10% off but it doesn't mean you can't change how you do business.
I would submit the idea of the 3 bids policy and work from there.

Former HOA President
HaroldS1 (Arizona)
Posts: 314
Posted:
No favors to board members in your association, eh! Why is their contractor so great and wonderful? Is he affiliated with the management company? Doesn't all licensed, bonded roofing contractors have to guarantee no leaks? Just seems strange they are so adamant that their contractor only be used.
I doubt that the waiver they are demanding, to even transfer with the title, is not legal. Does their contractor guarantee no leaks forever? Courts have been ruling that HOA rules must be reasonable. Requiring you to hold them harmless on that skylight forever is not reasonable. (What happens when their gifted contractor has to eventually replace the roof? Are you still responsible for no leaks in that skylight because of your waiver?)
Good luck. Harold
AnneN (California)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Yes, I'm the president but it is my personal ethics that I recuse myself from the vote since I have a financial interest here. This will probably cost me at least $2000 more not to be allowed to go with bids. There are 4 other members.

Member (#1), who said I could only use the HOA contractor, is of the mindset that all of us are idiots and don't know how to run an Association (which may be true ;-). #1 will not budge - this is the same person who wants to inspect all the homes electrical to make sure they're code and believes the Association can control landscaping on our private lots, including preventing us from cutting down trees - that we bought when we bought our homes and lots. Member #2, who once called me a liar in one of the Board meetings, has sided with #1. #2 generally doesn't approve anything that involves spending money b/c #2 is too cheap and only approves things their family can afford to do as well. Member #3 hates member #2 and only got on the board to mess with said #2. #3 was denied approval to install a tankless water heater last year by the vote of #2. #2 also voted against allowing #3 to buy in our complex b/c #3 had 2 dogs (the rest of the Board interviewed #3 at length about dog policies, etc. and approved the purchase over #2's objections). #4 also wants to install skylights and is new to the Board this year. So, as I see it, the vote will either be tied or 2 to1.

Basically, we are the most dysfunctional bunch of morons to ever try to run a Board. I'm trying very hard to be reasonable and put the interests of all owners first, including reasonable financial restrictions. My concern is that this sets a very dangerous precedent. Member #1 wants to force us all to use the same electrical contractor thinking that there is only one electrician in CA whose work will not result in a fire that will burn down the entire complex. #1 is also of the belief that there is only one roofer in CA who is qualified to put in skylights. Member #1 is slightly nuts.

At this point, because there is nothing in our CC&Rs that covers this, nor can I find it in Davis-Stirling, I'm hoping to find some legal precedent to scare them. They will shy away if I can prove that this restriction will not hold up in court.

sorry - rant over. I'm quite frustrated. I am a good person. I'm not trying to pull anything. I'm on a limited budget. I have serious heat problems in my house that cannot be controlled by A/C (a/c at full blast 24 hrs a day will only bring indoor temp down to about 80 - due to previous restriction in size of unit I was allowed to install). All I want is a skylight I can open b/c I've been advised by experts that this will reduce my energy consumption in the summer by a significant amount and I don't want to be forced to spend $5000 to do it.
AnneN (California)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Sorry - just to be clear. This is not an Association job. This is a private job - like putting in hardwood floors or new kitchen cabinets. Skylights are my personal responsibility. They are forcing me to use one and only one contractor.
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
AnneN - Your home will sell because you will probably sign a Seller's Disclosure statement to the buyer and will show no signs of leakage. The board is worried about damage to the common elements, vinyl siding, roof shingles etc. However is the skylight considered a traditional window? My HOA was responsible for skylights. If it's determined the that skylights are considered "windows", the board isn't paying the bill. The board should have a list of approved vendors and encourage the owner to use them. Your issue is a little more complex. You are trying to install a skylight that opens, hence it's more of a window. You should first get approval for the design.
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/09/2007 4:12 PM
I am confused. Your the president correct? So what prevents you from changing the policy?

The President is not supposed to unilaterally changing the policy.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I didn't say that the President should "unilaterally" change the policy. I said the President with the board can vote to initiate a policy to collect 3 bids. The president CAN suggest and put the idea on the "table" for a vote. Nothing wrong with that.
Don't be afraid to be president or hated. Your NOT going to please everyone and they aren't going to please you either. If your HOA is as disorganize as you say it is, what's stopping you from organizing it? Right or wrong it's time to strap up the bootstraps and do something. Worst case, you get voted out. Big deal, you probably will want to quit by that time anyways!
I have a post called "Basic HOA Information" you may want to review. It will give you some guidance on how your HOA should run. It is NOT for every HOA, but it should put you in the right direction.
I've been in your shoes and it isn't easy. Your going to get people in your face, think you should know everything, threaten to sue, and expect you to be a leader. My best suggestion is to LEAD and do it the best you can. Don't be afraid to make a decision. Remember the HOA budget is EVERYONE's money, you were just elected to make sure you spend it on what the majority wants. Don't answer questions immediately. Wait to answer until you review the documentation or invite the person to the meeting. Know what the HOA is responsible for and what the owners are responsible for. And NEVER bring a handgun to a meeting...
IMO you should be able to bid out the contractor job. It's time the status quo went out the window.

Former HOA President
JM2 (Oregon)
Posts: 439
Posted:
Hi Anne:

It seems as if your HOA has a "preferred vendor" for roofing issues. Depending on the type of roof, that may be well justified (I'm thinking in particular of cedar roofs - there is one contractor in our area whom I would recommend above all others for cedar roofs). You might be stuck on that one...however...

There may be another, low-cost solution to your problem, since it basically deals with your air conditioning. Put a soaker hose around the AC condensor and turn the water on low. That provides moisture that evaporates (cooling the air going into the condenser) and also, the moist air carries away more heat than dry air would. You could even rig up a system with the kind of misters that are used in grocery stores in the produce section, to provide a better misting for cooling things down. It will also save on your electric bill (more efficient cooling) but run your water bill up a bit. An old HVAC guy taught me that trick and it does work, particularly in drier climates. Even my 90-year-old mother goes out on hot days and sprays water on the barkdust around her AC condenser.

J. Patrick Moore, CMCA
JohnC10 (Arizona)
Posts: 106
Posted:
Get your three bids including the HOA's contractor. Compare apples to apples and ask the HOA contractor to meet the more competitive bid.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnneN on 04/09/2007 1:45 PM
.................I must use the contractor the Association uses. The reason is that if I don't use this one vendor, there will be questions of liability should leaks occur. .........

Well, that's a good point. If there is a leak, the roofing contractor can blame the window contractor and the window contractor can blame the roofing contractor and nothing gets fixed.

You mention in another post that there's a $2,000 difference in costs between the contractors. Quite often, the lowest priced contractor is skimping on materials, methods, or skilled workmanship. Everyone is paying the same for windows and other materials and about the same for skilled labor so something has to be left out to save $2,000 on the bid. I worked most of my life for a large public school system that took the lowest bid every time. I've seeen (and corrected) the results.

Ron
SC
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By HaroldS1 on 04/09/2007 4:14 PM
...... Doesn't all licensed, bonded roofing contractors have to guarantee no leaks? ...........

Only for as long as they remain in business.

My post above mentions my experience with the school system and low bid contractors. When faced with a lawsuit or a very large warranty claim, they would just go out of business, then reappear under a new name and bid on the next job.

Ron
SC
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Ron is right, you do get what you pay for. Low bid is not always good bid. I can see where the HOA is coming from on this. Another poster had a good idea, get three quotes, go to the HOA preferred and ask them to lower their price or explain why it is so much higher.

My question to you is what happens if you use another contractor, the roof leaks, ruins common property and the contractor vanishes or goes out of business, etc. They are going to turn to you to fund the damages. I don't disagree with you, but I do think looking at a bigger picture might be helpful here.
HaroldS1 (Arizona)
Posts: 314
Posted:
Roofing is not rocket science or brain surgery. So the "preferred" contractor will always be around to guarantee his work while everyone else could be subject to fleeing?
I think everyone knows the lowest bid is not always the best bid, but forcing people to use only one contractor smells of kickbacks. Any HOA that hires and forces others to use a contractor without competitive bids is failing their fiduciary duty. Without competitive bids, how does anyone know if his so called "discounted" price is reasonable for the work done? Harold
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Harold:

I would agree with that assessment, I think if she gets bids from 2-3 other vendors and compares it she will have a good idea of what she is looking at. IF all the other vendors are lower than the HOA one, then that sets up a good case for litigation because it is costing her money for no reason. I would get some bids and take it to the board and ask that they be reasonable.
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/09/2007 8:54 PM
I didn't say that the President should "unilaterally" change the policy. I said the President with the board can vote to initiate a policy to collect 3 bids.

MellisaP1 - Go back to your original post. You stated "I am confused. Your the president correct? So what prevents you from changing the policy?" Seems to me that's a suggestion of a unilateral change in policy. You may have meant to say something different, something more politically correct, but you'll need to re express yourself if that is the case.
JohnC10 (Arizona)
Posts: 106
Posted:
I'm not so sure that installing a skylight falls withing the scope of a roofer's license (C-39). Glass installation would fall under a glazer's license (C-17). Probably need to hire a General contractor in which case he would sub out to the specialty contractors.

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/consumers/default.asp

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Presidents have to have majority board vote to make any changes in policy. The president does NOT act alone. If the president wants to make a change in policy they present the idea to the board. The board votes yea or nay with the president possibly making the final decision in a tie vote. However, with a 2/3rds vote of the board members may override the president vote.
So the president CAN change a policy simply by submitting the idea to the floor for a vote. Hence then, that may be considered the President's view is being enforced to those who want to read more into this... (If you keep that kind of mindset you will never get a decision made without calling the board/president dictators each time changes are made legally).
As for the original question about the window installation. I believe the board/ACC committee can limit the TYPE of window installed but NOT the contractor doing the work. It is NOT the HOA's money involved in paying for the work. It is JUST their approval for the work to be done. They can SUGGEST a contractor but can NOT demand it or they won't approve etc...
It's much like installing fences. The homeowner has to submit the fence plans to the HOA/ACC for approval but the HOA does NOT pay for it. The homeowner pays for their own fence and maintence. However, if that fence (or other approved item) falls into disrepair, dangerous, or causing damage to HOA property the HOA can vote to remove the item at the homeowner's cost. If that homeowner does NOT pay the removal costs the HOA is allowed to lien the owner for the costs of the job. This is the ONLY other time a HOA can levy a lien that is NOT for unpaid dues.
I still say bring three bids to the floor and submit them. Explain that the HOA is approving the project but is NOT paying for it. So you should be able to pay any licensed/insured contractor you want. Good luck!

Former HOA President
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/10/2007 4:34 PM
......... As for the original question about the window installation. I believe the board/ACC committee can limit the TYPE of window installed but NOT the contractor doing the work. It is NOT the HOA's money involved in paying for the work. It is JUST their approval for the work to be done. ..........

I live in a single family home so I can use any contractor I choose and if there is a problem it is my problem. In this case, the association has common property (the roof) and improper work can affect the association's property. I'm not convinced they should have the right to limit the work to a particular contractor but they should have the right to approve or dissapprove a contractor.

Ron
SC

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