Update on my HOA lawsuit

Started by CaroleS • 47 replies • 3540 views

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CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

Hello everyone the last six weeks have been interesting. Motion for a new trial was denied. There was an attempt at an appeal. However, the appeal was not done properly. In Florida you must follow the guidelines. If you don't, the appeal is dismissed. It can't be put back together.
There are six sub Association in my community. After my community meeting last month ended I got up to bring everyone up to date. Homeowners are angry. They don't like having money taken that was not supposed to be taken. They don't like secrets and being kept in the dark.. As part of this process I received a copy of the court transcript. Rereading how the judge question the president is very interesting. Very interesting how the president talks about the meetings with board members that are never open or posted.

But now it's time to move forward which I have tried to do repeatedly. At the next board meeting I am going to ask the board to vote return everyone's money. I am certain that will happen eventually. I just do not wanted to be painful.
I am also going to ask five of the six board members to resign. They have intentionally violated the law the docs our articles and bylaws. B if they refuse according to statute they can be reported to the Florida Atty. Gen. Hopefully that won't happen.
In Florida when you move into a homeowners association you're required to sign a document that says you will adhere to the articles bylaws and declarations of the community.
With several other homeowners I am in the process of putting a plan in place to put this community back together the way it supposed to be. That is an odd number of board members representing all thousand and 60 homes.

We have to remember that some things are easy to understand if you take the time to read them. Lawyers CPAs doctors are not always correct.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,046

Posted:

As a service to others that may come across this thread and wonder what it refers to, it refers to the following thread:

Subject: I sued my master board and WON!!! Very long post

So Carole, does this mean the legal action is finalized or are there still appeal routes the Association can take?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I thought the Florida law is that the BOD member READ the documents. The signature or not does not matter much.

I still do not see your lawsuit valid or money being returned to the owners. If I recall the HOA signed a new contract where the FIRST 18 months are free. That does NOT mean you are paying for something that is "free". That is a 5 year overall contract. They will be padding the bill when the contract comes in effect. You still owe for a multi year contract and will have to pay the whole amount if you all were disasistified. How will giving money back help everyone?

Former HOA President

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

There are no more appeals. Now the hard work begins.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

As the judge said. You cannot intentionally assess for something that you are getting for free in order to create a surplus

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 875

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 02/20/2014 1:31 PM

I am also going to ask five of the six board members to resign. They have intentionally violated the law the docs our articles and bylaws. B if they refuse according to statute they can be reported to the Florida Atty. Gen. Hopefully that won't happen.

Be careful. Make sure you are not committing a crime like blackmail or something similar.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

I could do it now - I keep on trying to give them opportunities to do the right thing.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

But I understand hoe you could read it like that my mistake

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

My 01/06/2103 posting in reply to the original posting:

If I have the facts straight. The issue came about as the newly contracted security company was willing to wave the yearly fee of $60K (for 1000 homes) for two years and the BOD did not reflect this savings in a dues reduction. If my figures are right, the savings is $60 per year ($1.00 per week), per home.

Melissa raised the question of what happens in two years? Will it require an assessment/dues increase that the owners have to vote on? If so what do you assume the odds are they will pass it?

The BOD was foolish in not addressing this which I believe they could have easily done without reducing dues. Something along the lines of a savings has come our way for several years which means we should allow us to keep dues at there present level for the next few years. Great news.

The question is did Carole, even while right, open a Pandora's Box for little more then $1.00 per home per week? You be the judge.

Some never understand how they won every battle they fought but they still lost the war.

END

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

John
The other part of the issue was a contract expired - The board knew this and still assessed for seven months on an expired contract - The board had every opportunity to do some of the things that you said.. They chose not to. They chose to ignore our documents and ignore the Florida statute.. This was the easiest way to get their attention.
I believe that those five will resign. We all live together in the same community. It will finally straighten itself out.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 02/20/2014 4:02 PM
John
The other part of the issue was a contract expired - The board knew this and still assessed for seven months on an expired contract - The board had every opportunity to do some of the things that you said.. They chose not to. They chose to ignore our documents and ignore the Florida statute.. This was the easiest way to get their attention.
I believe that those five will resign. We all live together in the same community. It will finally straighten itself out.

Carole

My bottom line is you were both (you and the BOD) stupid/wrong/foolish/stubborn much the same as the Farran case in VA.

Like stop the peeing contest and discuss this like adults.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

John

I spent six months trying to discuss this like adults. I just didn't do this.
Spent hours meeting with the president.
This board had five opportunities to make this go away.
I have been nothing but polite and professional staying focused on the issue.
Have had excuse after excuse. Interestingly they never said I was wrong.
They could've amended the budget January 2013 move the money into reserves no problem. They chose not to do that.
This is been an interesting learning experience. I am neither stubborn or foolish.
There is one thing to Share information. Something else to pass judgment when you have a walked in someone shoes.

RayC4 (Virginia)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 02/20/2014 1:31 PM
Rereading how the judge question the president is very interesting. Very interesting how the president talks about the meetings with board members that are never open or posted.

Carole, is there a web site we can go to access the Judge's comments? Or can you post if it's not too long?

RayC4 (Virginia)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Carole, is there a web site we can go to access the Judge's comments? Or can you post if it's not too long?

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

It is the transcript from the trial - I can't do that
Sorry

ValerieS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 244

Posted:

"Be careful. Make sure you are not committing a crime like blackmail or something similar."

Just curious, how the heck would that be blackmail!?! Stating a possible(legal)consequence seems perfectly legit to me.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 02/20/2014 1:31 PM
Hello everyone the last six weeks have been interesting. Motion for a new trial was denied. There was an attempt at an appeal. However, the appeal was not done properly. In Florida you must follow the guidelines. If you don't, the appeal is dismissed. It can't be put back together.
There are six sub Association in my community. After my community meeting last month ended I got up to bring everyone up to date. Homeowners are angry. They don't like having money taken that was not supposed to be taken. They don't like secrets and being kept in the dark.. As part of this process I received a copy of the court transcript. Rereading how the judge question the president is very interesting. Very interesting how the president talks about the meetings with board members that are never open or posted.

But now it's time to move forward which I have tried to do repeatedly. At the next board meeting I am going to ask the board to vote return everyone's money. I am certain that will happen eventually. I just do not wanted to be painful.
I am also going to ask five of the six board members to resign. They have intentionally violated the law the docs our articles and bylaws. B if they refuse according to statute they can be reported to the Florida Atty. Gen. Hopefully that won't happen.
In Florida when you move into a homeowners association you're required to sign a document that says you will adhere to the articles bylaws and declarations of the community.
With several other homeowners I am in the process of putting a plan in place to put this community back together the way it supposed to be. That is an odd number of board members representing all thousand and 60 homes.

We have to remember that some things are easy to understand if you take the time to read them. Lawyers CPAs doctors are not always correct.

Carole

Just what orders were made regarding the money in question in the court's ruling?

Any??

So if you now plan to ASK to Board to vote to repay the disputed money just what if anything did the court rule?

So now your plan is to ask the Board to vote to reimburse the money, which will be ipad back with HOA funds which came from the very same people??? And if the Board refuses your request what then?

And either way YOU are going to request 5 Board members resign. And at this point you think they will do so?
I would have my doubts.

And if so what position on the Board will you be assuming? Or anyone for that matter? Or will the single remaining Board member simply now serve as the Board?

And in Florida just what do you think the AG might do when you report your allegations? What can they do and what WILL they do.

Sitting here reading your description of what you plan to do next seems to me your plan has lots of possible holes in it.....

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 875

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ValerieS2 on 02/21/2014 12:57 PM
"Be careful. Make sure you are not committing a crime like blackmail or something similar."

Just curious, how the heck would that be blackmail!?! Stating a possible(legal)consequence seems perfectly legit to me.

I think Carole should be careful to not stray over the line, such as: Do what I say (resign) or else I will expose your crimes to the Attorney General. Sounds like blackmail. This is not what she wrote, but it is somewhat close. I thought she should be careful.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

If you go back to ALL the original posts you will see how this all unfolded. I was awarded money costs and interest - which sets the precedent - legally the only way the rest of the community can get their money Is to have the board vote or do a class action -
There are enough other folks who are now willing to step up to the plate to put this hoa back on course.

Our articles, bylaws and declaration are very clear on resignation and organization.

Interestingly in Florida the AG is fairly active in enforcing the directors roll as defined in Florida non profit

One step at a time this will all be put back together

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 02/22/2014 2:10 PM
If you go back to ALL the original posts you will see how this all unfolded. I was awarded money costs and interest - which sets the precedent - legally the only way the rest of the community can get their money Is to have the board vote or do a class action -
There are enough other folks who are now willing to step up to the plate to put this hoa back on course.

Our articles, bylaws and declaration are very clear on resignation and organization.

Interestingly in Florida the AG is fairly active in enforcing the directors roll as defined in Florida non profit

One step at a time this will all be put back together

So thanks for saving me the time to reread your thread.

So you sued for collection of YOUR overpayment alone and we awarded YOUR
share of what was paid in dues for services to be provided free of charge.

So now the Board members who just got done resisting your claim are simply going to go along with your direction? Maybe, maybe not.

And your By-Laws may be clear but you have to have some bodies to fill slots IF the Board members you direct simply throw up their hands and walk away.

Are you then required to hold and election? Do you then need to call a Special Meeting? And what IF those serving refuse to agree to give up their positions? You might be in for a long, costly, possibily unsuccessful battle.

Do those stepping in have any knowledge of serving on a Board? If not then you plan to put in 5 new members which in most cases can be problematic.

And while I am NOT familiar with Florida HOA laws my question was what authority or power does the AG have to enforce what amount to YOUR requests. Can they remove the Board? Can they insist the money in question be repaid? And IF they have the authority the last question would be WILL THEY or HAVE THEY EVER done so?

I wish you luck Carole. But I understand Board "politics", for lack of a better term, can become personal. Parties can become quite vested in their roles and in some cases won't simply ride off into the sunset when directed to do so. And just like you, they hold the belief they are the ones who are capable of getting the property "back on track".

I would hope you might update us as this moves along. I for one would be very interested to known how this plays out.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

I give up!!! Having a civil conversation on this forum is painful. Or, I'm a horrible communicator. This isn't personal. This is business. I have muscular dystrophy. That is personal.
This isn't fun. South Florida is heavily populated with HOAS - many 55+ like mine. Most people don't have a clue and don't want to have a clue. But don't mess with money! Folks have come up to thank me for having the courage to do this.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 02/22/2014 3:02 PM
I give up!!! Having a civil conversation on this forum is painful. Or, I'm a horrible communicator. This isn't personal. This is business. I have muscular dystrophy. That is personal.
This isn't fun. South Florida is heavily populated with HOAS - many 55+ like mine. Most people don't have a clue and don't want to have a clue. But don't mess with money! Folks have come up to thank me for having the courage to do this.

Good luck everyone - I will lurk but not longer share - way too aggravating

Carole I'm glad you shared your story. If you notice the criticism is generally aimed at the person who has prevailed against an HOA. I wish you success in turning your HOA around.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,046

Posted:

Carole,

I also want to show my appreciated your thread as well.

As we all know, the Board has to comply with the governing documents and applicable laws. It doesn't matter if the Board (or the members of this site) think the document or law is doing more damage than good. The Board must still comply or work to change that section.

This is all Carole has done, is make her Board comply with the governing documents and the law. Per the posts she even suggested ways they could amend the budget and keep the same amount of money coming (which would have addressed the concerns of funding when the contract was renewed and had to be paid). However, her Board chose to simply say no. Since membership apathy existed, this left Carole with no other options except to let the Board do as they were doing (which may encourage them to disregard other portions of the governing documents or applicable laws) or hold them accountable through the courts.

Again, Carole, I congratulate you on not shirking your duty as a member and being the checks and balances for your Association. I was glad to read that you tried to resolve the issue internally before taking the issue through the courts. I admire you for fighting the fight which was likely more about principal than about the money.

FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276

Posted:

Carole,

I appreciate what you did for your HOA, and how you conducted yourself here! Thank you.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Carole

I do not see people being uncivil. I do see some (myself included) that do not agree with what you did. Is this being uncivil?

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

I was pointing out the fact that Carole now plans to demand the Board reimburse all the owners for the same amount SHE alone was awarded. The reality seems to be they are under no legal obligation to do so. The court did NOT order this but Carole believes she can do so.

Then she plans to demand 5 of 6 Board members agree to resign because she says so. Anyone agree that should go just as Carole plans?

And if not than a report to the AG is threatened. My guess that process would not happen overnight or might not give Carole what it is she wants.

I can see several issues with Carole's plans. Do we cut each owner a check? Do we give each owner a credit? And I have to wonder just what amount each owner under .Carole's plan would be entitled to.

And all of this to repay money, paid by the owners, repaid back to those same owners which makes everything square.

Sounds like a lot of effort .

And in my pointing out the possible complications to Carole's plan that then lacks civility?

HOA Board disputes can become personal whether Carole likes it or not. And many people simply don't like being TOLD what they are now going to do. Carole seems not to even consider that possibility.

Myself, I prefer to have a clear view and complete understanding of the road I am headed on with the possible bumps in that
road already considered and calculated.

And as I said it would be interesting to hear how Carole's plan of events plays out.

IMO civility plays no role in that discussion.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

I commend Carole for what she did.

She made EVERY effort to work with the Board and they chose to play bullies. Someone held their feet to the fire. Someone stood up for a change instead of laying down like a dog. MAYBE, if more people took an more active interest in the community in which they live, you just might have better run communities.

Thanks Carole!!

JoK2 (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 02/22/2014 3:00 PM
I give up!!! Having a civil conversation on this forum is painful. Or, I'm a horrible communicator. This isn't personal. This is business. I have muscular dystrophy. That is personal.
This isn't fun. South Florida is heavily populated with HOAS - many 55+ like mine. Most people don't have a clue and don't want to have a clue. But don't mess with money! Folks have come up to thank me for having the courage to do this.

I've been following this and I do not see anything other than civility, and it is painful because hearing the other side speaking common sense is hard to take. Your case is a two sided issue and everyone's comments are helpful to everyone who comes here to "learn". I use that term loosely.

You make it personal when your replies include, "I'm a horrible communicator. This isn't personal. This is business. I have muscular dystrophy. That is personal.
This isn't fun."

And from thirty years of earning a sociology degree, the "folks" that thank you for having the courage to do this are more times than not just being nice to you to spare awkward moments and not hurt your feelings. If it bothered them, they would of called and asked how to help. The world is filled with "sheeple" and in an HOA enviroment, they thrive because a lot of this stuff is not worth their time or energy. So if they were made to understand how this all happened, they are not interested in getting a refund.

This thread has taught me a lot and I thank you for having the courage to post this thread because it is quite a contentious one as you have found out. It is a great learning experience for board members as a whole. Hearing both sides is helpful. good luck.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

It is stunning to me that Carole is unwilling or unable to even consider the possibility the current Board might not comply when she attempts to dismiss them.

IMO you might want to BUCKLE UP!

And just like Out/Geo who also filed a suit to recover her claimed overpayment none of the other owners is party to or included in this suit.

So YES in Carole's case she was paid HER refund. In Geo's case the battle continues.

And what of the HOA and its members? In both cases more than likely thousands racked up in legal fees.

Have the Board members in either case been removed?

Have the other owners seen ANY benefits?

Has any REAL and LASTING change been brought about?

And in Carole's case she now plans to demand the Board pay back each owner as the court ordered SHE alone be paid.

Sounds to me like a lot of wasted time, money and energy for not much accomplished.

Perhaps my standards of achievement might just be to high......

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

I have muscular dystrophy.

Why would you mention that? I have various medical issues too, but I don't bring them up at meetings.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,046

Posted:

Steve,

Carole didn't say she brought that issue up in a meeting. I took it as Carole simply illustrating the difference between an issue that was business related and a personal issue.

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 02/22/2014 3:00 PM

This isn't personal. This is business. I have muscular dystrophy. That is personal.

I don't know if Carole actually has muscular dystrophy or if it was the first thing that came to mind for the illustration.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM9 on 02/23/2014 5:26 PM

I have muscular dystrophy.

Why would you mention that? I have various medical issues too, but I don't bring them up at meetings.

Here is where Carole pulls out her "trump" card. I have an illness therefore I must be right and you certainly are wrong.

Sure sign of someone unable to support their views with logic and rational thought.

As I said, when you now plan to attend the next Board meeting and suggest to 5 sitting Board members they resign because YOU
say so IMO in most cases that might become personal for some of those Board members if not all.

Regardless, of any medical conditions.

Being forced out does not go over well in some cases......

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

Quote:

THREATENING consequences to get one's way is blackmail.

STATING consequences for actions is not.

let the attorneys become wealthy

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JonD1 on 02/23/2014 7:36 AM
And in Carole's case she now plans to demand the Board pay back each owner as the court ordered SHE alone be paid.

Here is the question Jon ... If a court already awarded Carole, and other owners have been similarly affected would it not be in the best interest of the Board to follow the Court's ruling for all owners equally OR should the Board face numerous future separate lawsuits and legal fees? While Carole was the only one who sued I would imagine the Court expects when the HOA lost that they would do the legally, morally, and ethically right choice for any other members similarly affected.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You do realize that the board members are also members of the HOA. So that would also entitle them to the rebate if one was so offered to ALL the members. How do you think that would go over? Start the tongues a wagging now...

Which by the way, Carol's suit should have always been a class action kind... Kind of makes the other members lose a bit of respect for the "fight" when only one person benefits but claims defending "all".

Former HOA President

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Welcome back, JanetB!

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JanetB2 on 03/05/2014 11:28 AM

Posted By JonD1 on 02/23/2014 7:36 AM
And in Carole's case she now plans to demand the Board pay back each owner as the court ordered SHE alone be paid.

JanetB2:

Janet I am not aware of a court ruling that does not give specific directions as to the court's determination but rather relies on the parties involved to do what they consider the legal, moral and ethical thing. In my expierence court decisions do not work in that manner.

IF the complaint was filed on behalf of ALL the owners THEN the court would have ruled all the owners be repaid. It was not. My guess in small claims court you would not be permited to file a class action suit.

My concern, as Carole has mentioned there are over one thousand homes on her property and we have estimated the refund to be $60 per unit so that we pay the refund out of HOA funds right back to the same people who made the payments. Sounds like a lot of work to me to make things right in the mind of one owner out of more than 1,000.

I will take a WILD guess here and predict the Board will be less than willing to go along with Carole on her demands they now refund every owner and her second demand they all now resign. If they were so inclined my guess they would not have fought this fight in the first place.

Taking $60 from the HOA to pay back the same owners who paid the $60 in the first place sounds like a lot of effort for very little real positive.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JanetB2 on 03/05/2014 11:28 AM

Posted By JonD1 on 02/23/2014 7:36 AM
And in Carole's case she now plans to demand the Board pay back each owner as the court ordered SHE alone be paid.

Janet

I am not nor do I play a lawyer.

You ask some interesting questions.

As I understand it, Carole sued the association so any court award is between her and the association and has nothing to do with any other owner. I would assume that the ruling might could apply to other owners and would aid them if they did pursue it.

I would think the BOD will have to address the issue as I expect it will be raised.

Remember, we only heard one side. We have never heard the BOD's side. Might it be all other owners were happy and decided not to pursue it? I think there might be something to this meaning Carole only seemed interested in her situation. Might she be the only one with an issue? I would not be surprised if her issues with the association are more then this one issue.

As presented with only her side, it did make one wonder why the BOD did not nip in in the bud. Are they stupid/foolish?

We will have to wait and see if there is any additional information.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

JohnC46:

I was wondering the same thing about some being either stupid or foolish to let it get to this point.

As only an average citizen who has been around the block a few times … in most associations everyone pays equally and is to be treated equally, with some exceptions possibly such as larger condos might pay more than smaller in some associations of that type. In most single family home associations all is equal. And I am not considering any different sides of the “story”, I am just considering the statement that the court supposedly ruled in favor of Carole on an issue which also supposedly affects other owners the same way. Because everyone is supposed to be equal this raises some questions:

Others are now on “unequal” footing with regards to out-of-pocket money paid which the association is now in possession … and their Board needs to determine if that would be legal or if it might violate other laws?

If it is not legal then what is the best way for the Board to fix the situation? If as Jon claims it is $60 per unit, should the Board send out a notice to other owners that their next assessment will be reduced by that amount? That at least would save time and effort of cutting reimbursement checks (over a thousand as Jon stated) and would put everyone on the same equal level for moving forward.

Carole:

You need to consider that potentially asking the Board members to step down might not be in your association’s best interest at this time. For one do you have other members who would be willing to take on the mess that others who created the mess have not yet had the opportunity to fix? Also, if the current Board got smacked by the Court then they most likely will be treading softly and try to cross their T’s and dot their I’s, for remainder of their term. The members then at your next annual meeting will get an opportunity to make a choice when elections are held and would be less turmoil and heartache caused for all the members. Between now and then the members can determine if there are others who might want to fill the positions and would be better candidates.

Choose wisely because everyone has to play in the same sandbox for as long as you own the properties. Playing together in as nice a manner as possible is much more fun in the long run.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

First, I volunteered to review all the governing documents of Carole's Association. Turns out it is a special type of association in that in most instances there should be six sub association boards and one master board. The six distinct communities, not associations, vary in size from 20 to over 200. The board is elected from all six, so a larger community will have a much better chance of garnering more of the board spots than a smaller community. This is where Carole resided, in one of the smaller communities.

To Jon's point about repaying the $60, it's very easy. Since they pay on a monthly basis, subtract $60.00 from the April dues of those owners current with their assessments. Out of 1000 homes, you might be able to save a few dollars, instead of cutting each person a check.

IF, Carole hadn't gone to the Board about this issue, I might stand besides some of you here. But she did, to no avail. Yes, we have only one side of the story, BUT isn't that always the case here. If you like, I can send their board an email inviting them to come unto this site for their side of the story.

Many people move into an HOA so they don't have anything to do or maintain. Much like downsizing from a single family home to a condo or townhouse., no maintenance. That also includes, no involvement. The only ones that do get involved are the 55+ communities, because,well, we have nothing better to do with our time.

In an HOA we have several choices, we can roll over, most do. We can move, hardly. Or if we believe strongly in our cause, then stand up and fight. In Carole's case and knowing the circumstances, I believe she made the right decision. Remember, the judge or commissioner also agreed with her.

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