Returning Appellant

A year ago I was registered here as user, OutCast. I was suing my Association for not following its Declaration, written in 1940 and provides a non-amendable assessment clause.

Just as in my Association, few in this forum could comprehend how a modern-day HOA could operate on 1940 funding. The reason is, simply, a dollar in 1940 was like $156 today. With an average annual wage of $1300, $10 was nearly 1% of that family income. Consider also that as a start-up, undeveloped plat of 600 lots, it needed much more money for building its infrastructure in the first 10-20 years (coming out of the depression and into WWII) than it does today, fully developed.

The services that were required then encompassed everything from mail delivery, street signage, snow plowing, maintenance of “common areas”, and more, whereas, once annexed into the metropolitan area, the city absorbed all those services. The “common” areas were taken over as rights-of-way, which I saw was an issue in another older post regarding a stone monument on their city-owned entrance. No longer do we have any common areas, although, similarly to the post just referenced, our BOD continues to pay both insurance and summer mowing (????) --costs approximating $4000 that are totally unnecessary, as is snow plowing ($1000-$3000) and private security ($8000-$10,000); our 3 or 4 largest encumbrances.

So, could this HOA continue to operate on $10 times 600 homes? Six thousand dollars would be more than enough to pay a secretary to take minutes at the Annual and Bored meetings and send out dues statements once a year. The astute reader will be quick to calculate that homeowners are then sending in their dues to pay a secretary to send out notices for which they will again pay their dues so that she can be paid to bill residents, ad infinitum. The question then becomes whether it might not be smarter to dissolve the Association.

That is not my present plight, however. Having won my small claims case by claiming back dues owed to me of nearly $400 plus court costs, the HOA-selected attorney filed for Trial de Novo and is putting me through the hoops as far as Motions, Continuances, late Interrogatories (he missed 3 dates), etc., etc., for which I must research and prepare responses. I am learning as I go. I have been once granted a motion by the judge and had motions twice denied. The BOD is already in debt to the attorney for more than $5,000 to keep from paying me $400, which is totally, legally, and contractually mine to be awarded, and in line with our Declaration. There is no doubt they are not willing to lose to me because to do so, they will have to admit they have skinned the residents for the past.....years. Three “elder statesmen” of the 6 current directors have, between them, over 115 years residency and 23 years Board service. Seeming to be no morality among them, the litany of conflicting (in)actions to the governing documents is mind-blowing whether by this BOD or the multiple others in my 15-year residency. Even the attorney, in my interrogatories responded to the question of the meaning of Fiduciary Duty that it “has different meanings in different contexts.” Ummm, no. Rife on the internet can be found the 4 responsibilities of the Duty in any number of settings, but always the same meaning.

We have 2 months to go till trial. I'm sure I will get many more roadblocks thrown at me. I can only hope that on the big day, the judge will severely reprimand or even sanction the attorney for taking so much of the court's time with frivolous motions on a case that is pretty much cut and dried. I think not many Circuit court judges overturn the ruling of the lower (small claims) court. Am I asking a question? Not really. Not yet. But I welcome any responses from my previous nemeses as well as supporters.

I was going to post a link to the initial thread.
However, there doesn't appear to be any threads posted by a user named "outcast"

Perhaps the thread was so volatile that the moderators deleted the the thread.
Perhaps the spelling of the username is incorrect.

However, I do remember past discussions around such a case. It's a shame we can't link to the initial thread.

Geo, thank you for the update.

Tim

Note to Larry, et.al.,

The judge granted both my Leave of the Court and my Amended Petition after the attorney motioned to dismiss. Even after the judge's order, the attorney has again created a motion to dismiss.

The attorney required his Interrogs and Production of Documents be returned in 30 days which date I met. He did not complete mine in 30, requested an enlargement of time and then missed his own deadline 10 days later. That's when I petitioned the court to compel him to respond and asked for sanctions. Judge denied my motion, but gave the attorney 11 more days, which he also missed. If I had an attorney, s/he would probably ask for sanctions again. I know I run the risk of p*ssing off the judge since I'm pro se, so what I did was to write a letter to the court for the file, rather than a motion.

Because it is the time of year when our BOD begins to consider budget setting I motioned for an injunction against distribution of annual assessments (April). When the Board found out about my injunctions, they stopped plans to set the budget and ROA. However, current and past BODs have set long-standing precedents (4 years) of fighting me regarding their following the Declaration's ROA and have made statements that they have no intention to ever pay me. When I found out last week that the atty has not received my Production of Documents request in a letter stating he "must have overlooked them" (I hand-delivered them to him personally with my Interrogs). Without the financial info I requested in those PODs (bank statements, all accounts, etc.), I am unable to research if there has been any attempt to spend down or hide Association resources. So I also requested an injunction to freeze association assets. After 40 days, the judge denied both injunctions. I expect the BOD to now begin the process of the budget and mailing assessments.

I'm not sure where all this is going, except to demonstrate to Larry that I am pursuing this with a slightly more than "messianic belief" that I am right. I am unacquainted with Larry's background, but I estimate I've spent at least 1000 hours on how to prepare my defense and keep up with the att'y stall tactics.

Could I stop at any time? No. To do so would place all current and future residents (heirs, successors, and assigns) at the mercy of continuing and equally hubristic Boards.
Could the Board stop at any time? Yes, unequivocally. They will [probably] lose again.

I am not so hard-headed as to believe that I can't lose, but if I do, it will be on a technicality of law, rather than on the merits of the case. One judge in this decade (my small claims court) has already spoken. And in 2004-05 another resident took the Association to court on the same issues and the Declaration was upheld by 2 judges then as well. That case was buried to the residents until 2010 when I discovered the document just as that Plaintiff did.

So Out I have to wonder the purpose if any for your return.

Sounds like you are still tangled up in the legal system with no end in sight.

I remember you were less then forthcoming with some of the details in your situation and sometimes provided your version but not the missing parts.

The $400 you were awarded covered what period of time?

Your legal expenses in this matter amounted to how much?

And you have 1000 into this on principle.

My guess would be the Board and perhaps your fellow owners would see your actions in a
Very different light than your presentation.

And as other crusaders you make claim their efforts are made to serve the owners who in many cases don't support their actions,
The present owners which would include the current Board and any and all future owners for whom you speculate.

Just have to wonder besides yourself who appointed you savior for groups of people who have not asked you to do so?

And just like Chris from Jersey you too seem to not understand after you sue YOU do not then get to decide how things go or how the other side responds. Whether your Board resists your actions or appeals any decision is not YOUR call.

And as with Chris and others when the opposing side YOU sued doesn't roll over they and the legal system are now at fault.

So in the end this is not about protecting others that is a smoke screen. And despite YOUR claims you too could drop this $400,
crusade. But my guess you won't because being right and proving that is all that matters to folks like you.

As I remember you sued for yourself alone no one else.

Sort of brings into question those you claim to be protecting......

Thanks Banks, that found it.

Here is the initial thread: Subject: Suing my HOA

It was the thread that went off of the initial posting when Mike joined the discussion.

Please don't reactivate that thread.

Jon, you rightly assess that I am [still] embroiled in the middle of the legal system. However, your bullying questions are of the type that serve no purpose and of the type that my "good-ol'-boys-club-BOD" has managed to maintain for decades.

The border at the top says "A forum for Community Association Boards & Other Volunteers to discuss topics concerning their association duties" so:

I have "volunteered" (twice) for a position on the Board and been voted (twice) to the position as director; the first time as secretary by vote of that Board--most probably because knowing the secretary does not get a vote they thought they could "tuck me away". But the information I was privy to (archived docs, etc.) was far more valuable than any vote in which I could have participated--and lost, due to being a minority anyway.

Do not insult me by stating I was "less than forthcoming" in my former posts or that I have a smokescreen agenda now. It was (and apparently still is to some people) a very complex issue. It is difficult (for some) to wrap their heads around why a document would specify a non-amendable ROA. In order to change the ROA the document and thus the Association would need to be terminated, requiring a vote of "the owners of 2/3 of the property". Notice the clause does NOT say 2/3 of the owners...quite a different requirement! Also difficult to comprehend is the $10/yr average dues structure, which, for all purposes, even if the assessments had not been recently and illegally demanded at 5-10 times higher, is nonetheless, duplicitous now that the city has overtaken all those former duties as written into the Declaration. That was my point about paying the secretary to send out notices merely so she could get paid to do it all over again the following year.

In that vein, I am not trying to dissolve the HOA; just saying that it doesn't make sense. But $10 a year is chump-change to most who will more than likely not take the time to consider the issue. It would take more space than this forum would allow if I were to list the ways in which BODs of the past 4 years have not complied with their CC&Rs, but methinks there are some who don't care, and those who do care are experienced in similar issues of their own.

Remember, all ANYONE can do is to present an issue IN THEIR OWN VERSION. Does it matter the period of time the back dues covered? Does it matter my legal expenses? (filing was $63); and I know your intent was not to mislead anyone by not clarifying the 1000 I'm "into on principle"; it's HOURS, not dollars!

You lead the reader to assume you would not be at the forefront if your association suddenly billed you multiple times what your CC&Rs allow. Should one suppose you would just roll over and say "I sure don't want to sue myself!" and pay. Or perhaps you are fortunate enough to have a BOD that actually FOLLOWS its CC&Rs and realizes what Fiduciary Duty means.

With the minions who come here looking for answers, do not assume that all Board members are working transparently or for the good of all without personal bias (1st Fiduciary Duty). Do not assume that either first-timers OR old-timers know (or care) what is in their documents. And do not assume that everything has to be about the money. Do you really think I need $400 badly enough for the privilege of being able to say "I'm right."? If you knew that yours and all future residents of your association were at risk for increasing and fluctuating assessment based on....nothing, WWYD?

Yes, I am suing as an individual member, but an award stating the Declaration ROA has been violated (2nd time for me, 4th for the organization) will definitely bring an outcry from enough of the 600 members that the BOD will no longer be able to pick and choose their annually-fluctuating "wish list." There are consistently 150 (1/4) who do not pay their assessment from year to year. This year, although the assessments were reduced $5 from the previous year, there are currently over 200 (1/3) who have not paid for the current fiscal year (April 1-March 31).

The purpose for my return was to search the forums to see if I could find answers to assist me with some legal procedures, but having forgotten how soon one's principles and objectives are attacked, perhaps I erred.

Anyone who has integrity can appreciate a person standing up for any right. Those who wish to stop a person from pursuing what they believe is right are nothing but cowards What does one person's fight have to do with them? Why would they seek to stop it? Either they have something to lose if the party is victorious OR they are so jealous of courage that they can't stand looking in the mirror -- lashing out because they can do nothing else to stop what they don't have the courage/fortitude to do.

Chris,

Just to be sure, my post was sincere! I appreciate what you and Geo are doing, both your actions within your HOA and your participation on this forum. At times I have certainly been late to the party with enough courage to stand up to what many of us have experienced, but not any more. I wish both of you the best!

Chris would that also mean that after 6 years you too would be a winner?
Did you successfully stop the gas line project? Did you win in your suit against the judge? Has your blog and videos of snow removal accomplished anything and if so what? From your atitude you sound frustrated and powerless. Not much like a winner. From your baseless claims that anyone who differs with you then has made this discussion sexist in nature you appear far from positive or open. Left to whine abou how things should be in YOUR world which will never come to pass.

As you seem to have the power to declare who in fact prevailed I just have to wonder just what has OUT won? $463???

And just how has her fight benefitted the other owners. Those like you that you both claim to be protecting?

Lets be real your neighbors more than likely don't support your views.
And even if we assume your description of the goings on a your property are true how is YOUR behavior and actions working for you?

Suing a sitting judge. Just how far did you think that would go? And why bother? To be a PIA.

How'd that work out?

Yes keep telling yourself you are the winner...............

Tim:

Thanks for the repsonse.

At least lets be honest. I did not join my Board to protect the owners.
I joined to see how my property was being run. I have not served for 27 years solely to do God's work. Or protect "future" buyers. I'm just not buying that line of BS. What your're trying to do is drum up support, real or in these case imagined from those who could not care less or don't agree with what it is YOU stand for. WE ALL is acually YOU!

For me the pattern is clear. In many ways similar to some other who have visited this site.

Sam Judie the fool from out west who ran for the Board quit and then writes a blog downgrading his own property. Like a small child blaming all the wrong on everyone and everything.

Mike Reardon the crusader from Mass. He was fighing for truth, justice and the American way. Or at least his version of all three. All HOAs every last one of them was corrupt and evil. And if you don't agree you are a coward, Nazi, anti-American and any other label that makes you less than him. Four lawsuits later and thousands down the drain his big plans for nationwide reform flowed down the drain.

Then we have OUT who works to protect her fellow owners but fails to consider the Board members are also owners.She has eliminated them as part of that group. Suggests "her" plan would require the HOA now be dissolved but knows the reality is that will never happen. Who makes the claim the Board can blink any time but some force greater than any of us knows prevent HER from ending this nonsense over $463 on principle. And what has this cost the other owners in legal fees? The same owners OUT professes to now protect. It does not.
And one year later with no end in sight OUT wonders why things have not gone as she had hoped. Because when you sue people they have the right to respond in any manner logical or not and not based on whether it is understood by you or serves YOUR agenda.

And Chris who fights for repairs, fights easements for gas lines, fights for proper snow removal and fights to reform the judicial branch of government. Not once has she mentioned the legal costs to her property.
Not once has she mentioned the support other owners have provided her. But she too fights for them. Even IF they have never asked for her help or representation. She has to do this anyway.

In most cases are these folks serving on their Boards? NO Have they ever served? Well they can' seem to get themselves elected? So they come to this site set up to serve as a place where "community" leaders meaning elected, not self appointed, can come to share ideas and knowledge.
What part did they all miss?

And what really makes me laugh they now come to this site and preach about how and why to do things. Has Mike had success? NO Has Sam reformed his community? NO. Has OUT brought about some drastic change to the membership and actions of her Board? NO Has Chris put together a blueprint on how to succeed in bringing about change to your HOA? NO

Sort of like taking finacial advice from someone residing under a bridge in a cardboard box. Each claims to know it all just never has worked and never will.

My suggestion before you cry out for statewide and national reform as it exists in your mind's eye perhaps you should set an even more limited goal for yourself, clean up your own property first. Before you make claims about the dysfuction that exists, the dishonesty that YOU see everywhere, questioning the very need or purpose of any HOA that exists today, based on an article you read, better you check yourself and tap your brakes a few times. IMO the fact that in most cases you have failed to clean up your own backyard suggests to me in that endeavor you have bitten off more than you can chew.

So preach on. Continue to offer all that you know which has never worked.
Now that's valuable information and worth coming to sites like this to share.

Fighting the good fight is admirable but not when it becomes twisted with self-serving agendas that no longer in any way serve the community but rather your inflated ego and needs.

Sam meet Mike meet OUT meet Chris

Geo, you're getting upset for no reason. You came here to find out information and share ideas. You don't need to be insulted. Don't take the bait. Don't let them switch the topic. Don't entertain wild accusations and assertions. These are lawyer/BOD tactics 101. They live to switch the topic and make YOU defend yourself. See it for what it is and let them spew their ridiculous comments. The rest of us can go on and talk (and vent) about our experiences without including those who only know how to debate in assumptions and attacks.

If you feel the comments are insulting, why even address the party? If some crazy person starting calling you names in a store, you'd walk away. Do the same here. Turn your back on those that make wild claims blended with insults combined with advice on how you should handle what is important to YOU. Don't take the bait and crawl in the gutter with them. You know what you've done and why you have done it. You are an owner and the law is on your side that you have a right to do what you choose to do to protect what is YOURS. You are in the right. Never forget that.

Are you making the argument for or against the word "coward"? I'm confused. People who don't speak up for their rights and fight fights of importance are cowards in my opinion -- and that opinion won't change. However, I agree with your entire paragraph below which explains what courage is. I agree 100%. So we find ourselves in a curious place.

But it's cool to disagree on terms. I will stick with "coward" because I think it's selfish and terrible and cowardly to only speak up when an issue related to one's own interest. I can't do that. I step up when people are being bullied, drunk women are being pulled into places against their will, when cars are being robbed... I've stopped many, many crimes in my life -- and I can live with what I've done. I'm glad I was put where I was to take action where I could to help another human being.

As per my COA, when a woman got flooded from water running into her home for the third time this past year and her OWN insurance company wouldn't pay for the damage again, I stepped up when she was WRONGLY told by my "trustees" that it wasn't their issue and they wouldn't put a claim in for her on the COA's policy for her damages -- caused by a common element drain issue. They actually told her to "clean your drain." It's NOT her drain and that wasn't the issue!

So I screamed bloody murder and stated the fact that the drainage issue OUTSIDE her home was EXACTLY their problem to fix and has never been properly fixed... especially since they (the glorious trustees who are so selfless in their actions) KNEW about it for years and it was on record that they knew.

In that meeting, in front of all, I told her they had to put a claim in for her and if they didn't, she sue. She didn't need to eat that loss, she didn't cause her loss. And if she didn't get compensated/they didn't fix it, she sue ---- sue the COA (all of us via the COA) because SHE shouldn't have to suffer one more loss due to the "trustees'" negligence.

I then wrote to the insurance company and the state. I made a state inspector come out and inspect the grounds... and then found numerous violations that had not been addressed and were serious issues on the common element in which PEOPLE besides myself could get hurt. I then wrote a letter of demand to the insurance company for the COA, the board and the lawyers (because they are supposed to care about the COA, although clearly do NOT)and DEMANDED to ALL that they address this issue now.

After having suffered for four years myself due to the "trustees'" negligence and idiotic excuses (including lies from the lawyers of the COA as to who was the responsible party for failures in the COMMON ELEMENT -- as in a roof didn't keep water out of my home), I didn't want this woman to go through the same situation and keep the lawyers employed via another lawsuit based on lies that would cost the COA even more money. There was a solution and the solution needed to be taken to mitigate further harm.

Long story short, they FINALLY fixed the flooding issue and the woman is now safe. Her home will no longer flood. Am I selfish? Maybe I didn't want to get hit with an assessment when she succeeded in her lawsuit...which she would definitely win. But maybe, just maybe, I saw a wrong and it needed to be righted. And I am sooooooo proud that I did what I did. No regrets whatsoever.

Now, if she chooses to do nothing to protect this COA moving forward, then she's a coward in my opinion. But that's life. I will still fight for what is right regardless of what others do...

And it seems... so will you! Bravo, Tim.

If it took Jon 14 years to get rid of his Board and management company, there has to be a lot of pent up rage and frustration on his part. Poor Jon, he should have taken John's advice and MOVED!!! I think his community would be better off.

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Richard my suggestion was not to move. Rather limit your goals to those that might be possible and try not to bolster your beliefs by suggesting they exist in every HOA in existence. Fighting over principle rewards just you. Fighting to reform things in the end serves others. Chris has sued for everything under the sun. Should the gas line have been rue routed in a loop around the property because
Chris said so? Should Out's battle continue on for years to come over $463 costing hr property thousands?

And yes Richard it took me years to get enough people to get involved, to be willing to buck those on the Board and hold down a full time job.

But I never filed a suit or damaged the property.

Go ahead find some fault with that.

I have been working third shift so finally able to catch up on a few things on here... JonD has a way of saying things but he tells it the way he sees it. He cuts through the feel-good heroism fight the fight sue happy crap that some posters post on here. I have learned over the years now of posting with JonD to have the utmost respect for him. He's not always right just like I am not and other so-called "regular" posters are not. We get it wrong sometimes but we only have what you post to go on. We are your third eye on the situation and see things through the devil's advocate. JonD being one of our best Devil advocates on this site.

Tim has done a good job here towing the line of respect of new posters and sharing good information/education to all of us. I will always have his back and he will always have my most respect. As for JohnC... He's got a margarita in Mexico waiting on me...

If you don't like any posters opinion or advice, then don't take it. We also don't have to promote or support ideas or suggestions that we feel are not beneficial to HOA's. Advice of suing, fighting, doing damage, protesting, or not attending meetings, we tend to frown upon. Our purpose for our advice here is for those who are in challenging situations of being a board member or general member how to use their documents to serve them. We believe education is where you do your best "fighting". It's NOT at the courthouse or with a lawyer's letter. It's getting with and communicating with your community of which you live. Discuss your documents, views, changes, and what you think needs funded. If a majority of you feel the same way, then you vote for someone who best represents your ideas into office, or you get together to make the changes with your votes.

There's no need to insult anyone here. It just makes you look like the insult. It's an adult conversation here. We will point out the flaws in your process if there are some. Expect advice here to come from where the rubber meets the road and not what the next article/news story is put out about HOA's.

Tim, to be clear, I have never told anyone to do anything ever. Cowards want to remain silent, that is their option. I AM NOT TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO. I am calling them what I choose to call them, which is COWARD.

And calling a person a "coward" for failing to act to protect one's own property is not name-calling, it's a description. Believe me, I know how to call people names. But I, too, don't find a reason to go there in a debate either. And I haven't.

I have no idea why you think you need to reprimand me on how I chose to call apathetic people who rely on others to defend their properties for them, but I choose to call them "cowards" and it isn't a ZINGER for laughs, it's a statement of how I see them.

Again, you will not see a single posting in which I have ever sought to stop anyone from doing anything. However, I have made the suggestion to many to not "take the bait" and "crawl in the gutter" with those who have used ZINGERS to make whatever "points" they are making with jibes, insults, personal attacks and ZINGERS.

With this said, I will speak as I choose. You do as you choose. I think I've made it clear -- no one will tell me how to speak, where to speak or guide me into speaking in a manner they feel works for them. I will speak as I choose to speak and I choose to call those who are apathetic and do nothing "cowards."

You can call them what YOU want. That's your right.

We will simply have to agree to disagree.


I'm not reprimanding and I'm sorry that you are perceiving it as such.

I'm simply trying to point out that your argument for calling individuals cowards can also apply to you. I don't think it's a valid argument and I certainly don't believe that you are a coward.

As I pointed out, I do think that when arguments on the merits of the issue enter into name calling the individuals participating in the name calling lose credibility (at least with me) and possibly others. From what you have been posting, I believe that you are above participating in name calling and was simply trying to express that.

Well said. You can't entertain arguments that are all over the place, contradicting and not based on anything but one's own personal opinion. Amazing how much anger is stirred by owners trying to protect their own property, isn't? And why insult someone for supporting another in their position/fight which doesn't impact them/their property in the least? Think about the mentality of that person. It's quite sad to be in that much need of control over everyone. Don't you think?

Thank you all for your input and conciliatory comments. I feared this thread may be going the way of the one I started last year that incurred so much venom....(Is it I?) Be assured I return now as I did then, for the purpose of updating those who expressed interest (and some who placed bets I could not win my small claims case), but I learn so much more by reading others' experiences.

Chris' comments on 'judges and the corporations' is of great interest to me but this may not be the venue to air that further discussion, rather a forum for legal questions may be more appropriate. However, if anyone has served as their own legal representation (pro-se) or have experiences that relate to difficulties of overcoming pompous attorneys (well, that's an oxymoron, I see!) and multiple attempts of the things I first mentioned, continuances, motions to dismiss, etc., as they would apply to this site, please either attach below or start a new and recognizable thread.

Or consult with one, which could be less expensive than hiring one to represent you.

Geo,

Have you reviewed Missouri's rules on appellate procedure? I'm guessing you have already done this. Iowa's is available on line. Now deciphering it is another matter.

As Tim said maybe you could just consult with an attorney. That is usually cheaper than hiring one. Do you have a relationship with an attorney now? Maybe he or she would be willing to take payments and/or reduce fees. Or if you know of a new attorney just starting out. They typically are looking for business and will tend not to charge as much. You don't know, if you don't ask.

Believe me I know how expensive attorneys are. You can't even sneeze at them without being charged for it.

I don't know if Melissa is giving advise for HOA's or individuals that may attempt to bring action against their HOA. HOA attorneys are not all they are cracked up to be.

In California, if you were going after you HOA and the damages are $5000 and less, you would use small claims court, in which attorneys are not allowed until the case ins brought for appeal, and only the defendant can appeal a decision. If I were to sue my association and I could keep the action under $5000 I would use small claims courts as the commissioners HATE HOAS and what they stay for. Get a Board officer representing the HOA and it's even worse.

We had a situation where our association needed to find evidence that the HOA owned or was conveyed a private street. We asked our HOA attorney to look into. No luck. They couldn't find the language in the CCRs which was clearly stated. The document(s) showed up early this year after 13 years in storage. HOA attorneys are not Real Estate attorneys unless they are willing to do the research.

"They will tell you straight out they will go with whatever you want them to do.". That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. They will do what is BEST for THEM. It's called MONEY. MONEY, MONEY, and then more MONEY.

Correction...middle of paragraph two....
"I know they don't want that because I burned ONE really good last time; resident for over 40 years and president for 10, he gave as a response to my question OF when did have knowledge of the Declaration, as "2010".