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ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
As you may or may not know, banks have a right to know if litigation is pending before entering into an agreement with a potential buyer. Much like in my secret, devious, ethically devoid COA, the lawyers for the COA advise the banks and communicate with them at their very profitable billable hourly rate to advise them of any pending action that may give a bank second thoughts about lending money to a person "investing" in a corporation by way of purchasing a unit/townhouse/condo. Thereby, the banks can PROTECT themselves by refusing to lend money to a person buying a "share" of a corporation through their membership. In short, a bank doesn't want to risk their investment when known risk exists. Fair enough.

Moreover, the FHA (federal government) also has the right in the law to protect THEIR MONEY. To have an HOA/COA get "approved" for FHA loans, there are required disclosures that need to be made by the COA/HOA to the FHA, including disclosure of assets, pending litigation and certain performances of duty. As such, the FHA gets to review and consider the "status" of an HOA/COA before they decided to risk their money in the investment of these corporations by way of mortgages to individual owners. Fair enough.

Now, the owner. They get nothing. No disclosure. No right to know. No seller's disclosure on the COA/ HOA. They walk in blind. "Buyer beware, fool!"

For certain, in corrupt NJ, there is no seller disclosure on the conditions of an HOA/COA when you purchase. If you were purchasing in cash, the HOA/COA doesn't have to tell you a thing about any pending problems, litigation, pending damages or horrors that exist because no law makes them. And yet -- isn't an owner's money just as "green" as the FHA's and the multi-billion dollar banks?! Too bad, potential owner. You buy in blind...with no access to the records... and when it all goes wrong, it just sucks to be you. Ah, the American way!

So, again, the banks and the FHA (the government) are FULLY aware that they need to have disclosure and awareness to protect their ASSETS. Their INVESTMENT. They have a right BY LAW to limit their exposure to loss and future harm. But where are the owner's rights to know before they buy? (Silence.)

Granted, when the owner doesn't get the mortgage because the bank won't lend due to pending litigation, other major issues, liabilities disclosed in secret -- they are beyond lucky in ways they don't even know. But the refusal of the loan wasn't disclosed to protect an owner from harm, the disclosure was there to protect the banks and the FHA.

So the point is: Where is the federal law that ensures that OWNERS have a right to full disclosure (like banks/FHA) before they buy? More importantly, if the FHA (the feds) are clearly capable of realizing potential loss/harm when it comes to their own money by way of federally-backed loans into these COA/HOAs, why don't they put the same rules of disclosure in for potential owners as a general rule?

Here we go again: Banks, protected. FHA, protected. Buyers, good luck to you.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Chris

I will throw in my two cents, as I have some inside knowledge that most people don't. I happened to have worked for the largest mortgage banker in the world at the height of the market and, unfortunately, was there at it's demise. The root of the problem started with the Secretary of HUD prior to 2000. I'll let you do the homework from there.

ANY entity should and must have the right to base a loan decision on risk factors, the government being no different.

To get FHA Project approval, it cost anywhere from $1500 and $2000 and takes about 6 months for approval. There are companies that specialize in getting HOA's approved, or at least try.

A lender will generally add .125 to .25 points to the rate if the loan is in a HOA, another .25 to.75 if its for an investment.

To your concern of corrupt NJ, IF someone pays cash for a property, they most always avoid escrow. Escrow is where the seller disclosure take place. What generally will happen is when this happens, the HOA and the management company will NOT know that property has changed hands and most likely will not be billing the new owner, because, quite frankly, when you avoid escrow, information and communication stops.

So to the point of disclosure from your HOA, fight for it. It takes time. Individuals from this site have done what it takes to turn their communities around., myself included. Anyone in my community has the very same information available to them as the government done, 24/7. No one should ever expect someone to do something they could have done themselves.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
We already know this and have posted this information multiple times. FHA and other government backed and now even non government loan granters are requiring the PUD form to be filled out. It's like a HOA appraisal. If a house is appraised the HOA is also appraised. It lets the lenders understand the risks they are taking when approving loans in HOA's. If that house goes into foreclosure one day, they will be owning the house and responsible for HOA dues during that time. So they have a right to be disclosed to. That same information is also available once you become a member (IF it is known).

Here's the deal. If you want to prove your HOA has had an effect on your "home value" (Which HOA's don't keep home values) then you have to sell your house and prove it. However, if you sell your house, your no longer a HOA member and have no case against your HOA. You can't sue something your not a member of. The court will toss that out.

The banks have every right to protect themselves from bad investments by being informed. They just do it by a form. Potential buyers have the right to be informed to, but they don't have the same form. They do it by finding the rules at the courthouse or the seller providing them. The HOA can as a courtesy provide them with HOA information but since they are NOT a member the potential buyer has no rights to that information.

Overall you as a buyer, a HOA member, or even a home lender have a right to be informed, but you have to know what to do with that information besides complain or sue about it.

Former HOA President
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/13/2014 1:46 PM
We already know this and have posted this information multiple times. FHA and other government backed and now even non government loan granters are requiring the PUD form to be filled out. It's like a HOA appraisal. If a house is appraised the HOA is also appraised. It lets the lenders understand the risks they are taking when approving loans in HOA's. If that house goes into foreclosure one day, they will be owning the house and responsible for HOA dues during that time. So they have a right to be disclosed to. That same information is also available once you become a member (IF it is known).

Here's the deal. If you want to prove your HOA has had an effect on your "home value" (Which HOA's don't keep home values) then you have to sell your house and prove it. However, if you sell your house, your no longer a HOA member and have no case against your HOA. You can't sue something your not a member of. The court will toss that out.

The banks have every right to protect themselves from bad investments by being informed. They just do it by a form. Potential buyers have the right to be informed to, but they don't have the same form. They do it by finding the rules at the courthouse or the seller providing them. The HOA can as a courtesy provide them with HOA information but since they are NOT a member the potential buyer has no rights to that information.

Overall you as a buyer, a HOA member, or even a home lender have a right to be informed, but you have to know what to do with that information besides complain or sue about it.

Melissa

The homeowner SHOULD have that information BEFORE they purchase into the HOA, to make an informed decision, not when you become a member. You don't have to sell your house to know what the "value" is. Banks use an AVM, (Automated Valuation Model) and have for years. Banks don't just use a form, a loan is underwritten by underwriters, with FHA underwriters being the toughest, but highest paid. Trust me, that one little form doesn't mean what you think.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Should and is - IS different. You are NOT a member of the HOA until you are an owner. That is the truth PERIOD. Otherwise, it's like giving your HOA information to anyone who walks down the street and says "nice house". The CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation are PUBLIC information and available at your local courthouse or online with your state. It is viewed as YOUR responsibility to be informed of the rules. Some states do require the seller to provide this information but it is ultimately the buyer to inform themselves.

HOA's do NOT protect, raise, or lower your home values. Something we have discussed in other posts. If you want to prove your HOA has hurt your home value, you have to sale your house and then sue for the difference you lost. However, considering you are no longer a HOA member after you sell, then you have an invalid case against that HOA.

To quote the Marx brother: I would NOT be a member of a club that would have me as a member"...

I don't see a thing wrong with the FHA or other home lenders requesting this information from the HOA. It isn't exactly hidden from the member either. Once your a member, you have access to this information. Once your a member, you then have the power to CHANGE these conditions. Your NOT a member or a homeowner, then what do you care?

Former HOA President
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Melissa

You just make ChrisA13's point!

Thank you former President.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I don't get where this is a "bad" thing. It's just reality. No need to sue anyone about it. Especially IF your suing a corporation/HOA your a member of...Deal with it and move on. It's life. Did you want a different result or do you have a result in mind? Or is it all in your mind coming out your mouth?

Stop making this some kind of conspiracy or fight for some kind of rights. Rights to what exactly? Full disclosure? The very thing they are doing. Information is out there, you have just got to ask the questions to the right people and to those who have it. Not to those you perceive should... Your just be "should'n all over yourself" if you keep that up...

Former HOA President
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 02/13/2014 2:43 PM
Melissa

You just make ChrisA13's point!

Thank you former President.

I thought the same thing. Exactly. I have NO issue with banks/FHA watching out for themselves and their investment. My question is WHY do owners have to wait until they are bound in blood to know what the status of the HOA is? And so what if everyone walking down the street knew the financial condition of a non-profit corporation? It doesn't make a profit, there are no trade secrets, it's a corporation that is established to CREATE A COMMUNITY. I say that every single piece of information should be made public. To everyone. Why not? Share, compare, know...

And if not then, certainly once a party is UC (under contract) they should have a right to full disclosure (at the least) at that stage to all the "secret financial deals" that banks get to know in advance with a caveat to walk away in ten (10) days if you don't like it.

Disclosure after the fact is not a lack of due diligence on the part of the buyer. Disclosure is disclosure. And it can't be found in public records. Yet you are buying land/property/part of a corporation upon which a title search and/or research cannot be done. It can only be done on YOUR unit... and that is NOT good enough.

Why are so people afraid to show the financial dealings of COA/HOAs? I said the law should make ALL that information public. This isn't a stock. This is property. An entirely different beast which requires absolute disclosure for all involved, buyer - seller - realtor - everyone.

I'd love my COAs financial info and pending litigation to be made part of a public record for all to see. Then people would run like hell from it the same way banks/FHA will. I'm for saving the people from harm above all others. They clearly have no advocates once they enter the "gates of hell!"
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/13/2014 3:25 PM
I don't get where this is a "bad" thing. It's just reality. No need to sue anyone about it. Especially IF your suing a corporation/HOA your a member of...Deal with it and move on. It's life. Did you want a different result or do you have a result in mind? Or is it all in your mind coming out your mouth?

Stop making this some kind of conspiracy or fight for some kind of rights. Rights to what exactly? Full disclosure? The very thing they are doing. Information is out there, you have just got to ask the questions to the right people and to those who have it. Not to those you perceive should... Your just be "should'n all over yourself" if you keep that up...

Clearly - you don't grasp the concept of what is being said or the fact that such documents (even when asked of the "right people" as you call them) are not provided. Again, you assume too much. And clearly you can't handle the facts to debate the facts. Your repeated suggestion that I move on shows the fear of someone who may lose their power if disclosure was forced upon them. Why are you afraid to show all the cards?

It seems to me that you make the "If you don't like how I'm running things, move" speech quite often to your neighbors/FELLOW OWNERS in your position of control. In truth, your attitude shows you are the one who should pack up and move on from your board. You don't get what your role is at all. And have taken it to dictate where I should move as well. You don't control me, Melissa. And I didn't post this to have you tell me how to live. Please, grow up.

If you have a comment that has facts (rather than guidance on how I can move), please provide one. Otherwise, I've heard your "move" speech. No need to reiterate. Thank you...
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/13/2014 3:25 PM
I don't get where this is a "bad" thing. It's just reality. No need to sue anyone about it. Especially IF your suing a corporation/HOA your a member of...Deal with it and move on. It's life. Did you want a different result or do you have a result in mind? Or is it all in your mind coming out your mouth?

Stop making this some kind of conspiracy or fight for some kind of rights. Rights to what exactly? Full disclosure? The very thing they are doing. Information is out there, you have just got to ask the questions to the right people and to those who have it. Not to those you perceive should... Your just be "should'n all over yourself" if you keep that up...

What questions should you ask and who should you ask?
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Posted By RichardP13 on 02/13/2014 2:15 PM


Melissa

The homeowner SHOULD have that information BEFORE they purchase into the HOA, to make an informed decision, not when you become a member.div>

It's amazing how simple this is. If it's good for the goose (the banks), why wouldn't it be good for the gander? Why shouldn't everyone, including realtors, know what the full condition of the situation is before getting involved with it? This isn't an issue of an appraisal. Again, Melissa is making an entirely different argument -- that I didn't make -- and she created in her own mind.

The fact remains, disclosure and transparency is the key to making an informed decision. If someone wants to walk into a nightmare, that's their choice. But give them the choice to KNOW. This is, after all, the biggest investment in a person's life. It is AFTER ALL their HOME where they live with their families and in which they puts their life's possessions. Since you can't see the metaphoric "dump" in plain site, it is important that the "dump" be made visible so people can smell the rot in advance -- and run like hell if they wish.
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:


What questions should you ask and who should you ask?

In my case, you can ask the Board and the lawyers. Both of whom tell you "no." And I'm an owner! They won't disclose anything. Ever. No joke. Really.

Since Ms. HOA President has full access (and probably the best maintained grounds in the community as president), she fears nothing because she knows everything and controls everything. But yet she doesn't seem to think that others buying in have a right to know the same. They should just rely on her... and her wisdom, guidance, experience and good judgment...once they enter her kingdom.

Absolutely the wrong way to go.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Chris,

That may indeed be the way it is in NJ. However, that is simply not true for Associations in other States.

"But where are the owner's rights to know before they buy? (Silence.) "

In VA, it's located in the law, specifically VA § 55-509.5 and the buyers responsibility to stay focused and ask for information prior to entering into agreements.

Just because your State doesn't have a law similar to NJ, it doesn't prevent a potential buyer from asking for additional information. Perhaps you can lobby your State representative for adopting a similar set of laws that VA (or any other State) has.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
As a homeowner new to the HOA's, I didn't even know what questions to ask or who to ask. When I bought my property, I went by what documents the realtor had (covenants) and the visual appearance of the neighborhood. It was obvious the covenants were not enforced. I later learned that they had expired. I didn't have any idea that 8 months after buying my property, I would be approached by a board member demanding a large amount of money.

I used to say never to say never but I am certain that I will never buy property in an HOA again. With that being said, I live in one, I don't like it, but I'm not moving anytime soon. I am trying to get some laws passed in Iowa to at least allow for open meetings and open records. My neighbors think I'm a kook but so be it. Iowa's Attorney General is not interested in helping either as I have contacted them twice. I just get a letter saying to contact my state legislators. That is what I have been doing. I will be persistent with that avenue for now.

I find these topics to be very interesting and what I have learned from this forum is that there are so many differences in HOA's across the country that its a very complicated business. What works for some doesn't work for others. It's definitely not a one size fits all.

I'm sure there are some HOAs that function quite well and there are some that are very corrupt.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Mike, meet Chris. Chris, meet Mike.
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BanksS

I used to say never to say never but I am certain that I will never buy property in an HOA again. With that being said, I live in one, I don't like it, but I'm not moving anytime soon. I am trying to get some laws passed in Iowa to at least allow for open meetings and open records.

I'm sure there are some HOAs that function quite well and there are some that are very corrupt.


Hi. The risk is too great for there to be any corruption in these types of corporations. The investment is not just a matter of money, it's a matter of a home. Lives. Personal safety. If someone makes the wrong investment with the wrong advisor, one loses money and may have some relief in suing to get a judgment in your favor which can be attached to the party who acted improperly with your funds. But that's money. But with the investment of your home, how do you recover when your safety becomes a daily concern? Your feel threatened? You are physically assaulted? And the parties involved are protected by the board? In NJ, even a board member acting criminally (CRIMINALLY) can be indemnified if they FELT that the act was not criminal in nature when acted in that manner. It's on the books. Talk about Insanity 101.

At the end of the day, you can see the rage that comes out in others when people dare to challenge this "failed" system of planned living. And as always, when one can't dispute the facts -- name-calling is always the "go to" place for fools. What can one do with fools?

So be a "kook" to those who are too stupid to understand, continue to protect your property, fight to protect your investment and stand up for your rights. For centuries, people screamed racists and homophobic and sexists comments to keep other people from fighting for their rights. Personal attacks on those fighting for what they believe is right is nothing new. And it will never stop. Heck, there are whistleblower laws in effect because that's how bad it can get when one chooses to stand up for what is right. Silence through threats and retaliation is nothing new, my friend. Bullies will never cease to exist. Fools will always try to make you crawl in the gutter with them. It is what it is...

But never let fools and their insults deter you from what is rightfully yours. You have rights, stand up for them. As you can see, you are most assuredly not alone. This is a national issue with reports of abuse as widespread and deep as the Atlantic and Pacific combined. You are not alone. Believe me...
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4

In VA, it's located in the law, specifically VA § 55-509.5 and the buyers responsibility to stay focused and ask for information prior to entering into agreements.

it doesn't prevent a potential buyer from asking for additional information. Perhaps you can lobby your State representative for adopting a similar set of laws that VA (or any other State) has.

Tim, again... a man with facts. However, I question this posting and please tell me if I'm not reading the right link. But I read the following:

A. The association shall deliver, within 14 days after receipt of a written request and instructions by a seller or his authorized agent, an association disclosure packet as directed in the written request.

It seems to give the SELLER the right to request the information. Not the buyer. Am I reading the wrong thing here?

Also, "asking" for information is great. What is the seller says they don't have any? I know for certain my COA would never release any information to anyone, especially not a non-owner.

As per lobbying, that's a great idea. Of course, I think I've made it quite clear that NJ doesn't want to give owners power. The court cases have shown the preference to corporations, actually altering the "plain language" of the law by adding new conditions that aren't in the law to further enhance COAs authorities.

With this said, I love the general idea of this. But it should be that a BUYER can make the same request. Did I read this link wrong? Or is there another law that says the seller is required to provide this to a buyer?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/13/2014 7:10 PM

A. The association shall deliver, within 14 days after receipt of a written request and instructions by a seller or his authorized agent, an association disclosure packet as directed in the written request.

It seems to give the SELLER the right to request the information. Not the buyer. Am I reading the wrong thing here?

Nope, you are correct. This is because only the seller, who is a member of the Association, has the right to request the information. However, if you read other portions of the VA Property Owners' Association Act, you will see that the Association must comply with any request for a disclosure package within 14 days. Additionally, per this same act, the seller can void the purchase contract with no penalty within 3 days after receiving the packet from the seller.

Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/13/2014 7:10 PM

Also, "asking" for information is great. What is the seller says they don't have any? I know for certain my COA would never release any information to anyone, especially not a non-owner.

It is standard practice in housing transactions in VA for this information to be released. The sellers realtor will often be the one who initiates the request on behalf of the member because they know it's part of VA Real Estate laws to provide a disclosure package to potential buyers. Additionally, if the buyer is using an agent, that agent will also make sure that a package is received.

As I posted earlier, the seller (or the sellers agent) is the one that requests the package because only the member of the Association has a right to obtain that information.

Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/13/2014 7:10 PM

s per lobbying, that's a great idea. Of course, I think I've made it quite clear that NJ doesn't want to give owners power.

All you have to do is find one member of the State legislature who is sympathetic to the issue. Perhaps you should start with the drafters of the NJ Common Interest Real Property Act. It was introduced in 1996, so it's possible that some of those sponsors of the act are still serving. Check with the NJ legislature site to identify who the sponsors were.

ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Tim:

That was the part of the law I didn't see you post. If it considered "standard practice" to receive such information by demand of the buyer, then the seller is required to get the information to give to the buyer. Then, yes. This works this way. I see the merit in the law and the reasons behind why only a seller could gather the information as well in this scenario. The way I was reading it was that it was the seller only -- and what purpose would that serve? Seeing the full picture, it's exactly what is needed in NJ.

I love this information and the suggestions. Genius. Thank you!

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/13/2014 7:49 PM

That was the part of the law I didn't see you post. . . . Seeing the full picture, it's exactly what is needed in NJ.

An excellent example of why it's important to read and understand the entire applicable law(s) or governing document(s) in it's entirety rather than just looking at specific sections. The section that isn't looked at may nullify or enhance the section you do look at.

Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/13/2014 7:49 PM

I love this information and the suggestions. Genius. Thank you!

As it says in the yellow banner, that is the purpose of this forum - to share ideas and learn" from each other.

There are many, many, many anti-hoa sites on the web. When I had my issue with my Association, I found many of those sites (most of them no longer exist). The members of those sites would typically share in my frustration and misery then encourage me to take legal action. Thankfully, I found this site. The members of this site asked questions like "what does it say in your governing documents?" and "have you discussed this with the Board?" They forced me to research my issue but were also supportive in correcting my issue by providing links to applicable laws that support my side of the argument (but, had the law not been on my side, they would have provided links that showed by argument was invalid).

This is the only site I found that, even if you don't like Associations (or just your Association), try's to help a poster understand the issue from both sides and then offers suggestions on how to address the issue (hopefully without having to use the legal system).

ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Quote:


An excellent example of why it's important to read and understand the entire applicable law(s) or governing document(s) in it's entirety rather than just looking at specific sections. The section that isn't looked at may nullify or enhance the section you do look at.


Absolutely. And I know Title 15A very well as well as my own governing documents. Very well. As well as the Condo Act. I, too, do my research and I know we don't have this type of law on the books. Of course, I don't know VA law. So that's why I had the question.

Believe me, Tim, I went down every avenue I could before I went to the court. Even the courts found that my derivative claims stand because seeking action directly from the BOT is "futile" and no relief can be found in dealing with them directly. So that's where we are.

With that, Black Hawk Down is on. Enjoy your night...
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
That's why you do your due diligence BEFORE you buy and if you don't know what you're doing hire an attorney to look out for your interests at closing. The Covenants are public record, court filings are public record and there is a whole industry of people who inspect homes before you buy, even condos, in fact most if not all lenders require an inspection as part of the approval process.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Chris:
Maryland has a law similar to Virginia's. The seller must give the potential buyer what is called a "resale package" with all the information you talk about at least 15(?) days before closing. The buyer can choose to back out the deal and his/her deposit money must be returned.
Jeanne
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Realizing that my situation is UNIQUE, there was no disclosure of an HOA when I bought my property. I hired an attorney and he noted 3 times in my closing documents the deed restrictions. Per Iowa law, deed restrictions have a 21 year time limit to renew which was not done. The seller bought the property at a tax sale so the only disclosure on the property were the deed restrictions. That is where the paper trail ends besides the abstract.

What documents do you normally get with a seller disclosure of an HOA? Do you get a financial report, do you get information on past, pending, or future litigation involving the HOA? Do you get bylaws and rules of the HOA? Just what all is included? How can you obtain all of this information without directly going to the HOA board?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Keep in mind you are NOT a HOA member until you are an owner!!! So the documents you have a right to are the ones that are PUBLIC when you are still the BUYER. Those are the CC&R's andArticle of Incorporation. Any documents the HOA may provide upon request is a COURTESY. The court and law views it as YOUR responsibility to be informed of the HOA. Since the documents are considered PUBLIC then they do not view it as anyone else's responsibility. SOME states require the Seller provides a copy of the CC&R, articles, and maybe the by laws/acc docs.

Sorry if your looking for a package. It does not exist. It may in the better HOA that do exist. Which is hard work and signs of a good HOA if they do.

Former HOA President
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
So BUYER BEWARE, DO YOUR DUE DILIGENCE before you buy your property but the HOA doesn't have to provide it so where and how are you supposed to get the information? Makes no sense to me.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Banks,

It isn't supposed to make sense. To most, it's GET IN, SIT DOWN and SHUT UP! According to Melissa, you ONLY have a right to the documents which are PUBLIC, meaning they have been officially recorded somewhere. Well, in most states Bylaws and Rules and Regulations are not recorded, thus not PUBLIC documents, but are as important as the Articles and CCRs, maybe more.

IMO, as a BUYER I am making the same investment as the bank and should have the same access to information as they are.

Unfortunately, our legislators found a new way to legislate WITHOUT even reading the bill they were voting on. So I would expect you won't find much help there. The HOAs have the power to make disclosure to the potential buyer with minimum cost to themselves. There is NO law or statue prohibiting such action.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
So for discussion purposes I own a landscaping company and I park my vehicle outside in my driveway which is against the HOA rules. I didn't know about that rule when I bought my property because the rules were not in my closing documents. Then what? Is it my fault because I didn't specifically ask the question?

When I bought my property, I didn't even know there was an HOA let alone a set of rules or bylaws. I only knew about the deed restrictions that had expired.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Bank,

Well, I would forego the customary warning, hearing, fine and go straight to towing the vehicle off the property, jk

When I purchased in 2008, I only received a copy of the CCRs and knew my dues were $146 a month. Back then there was no website. We didn't know who the management company was until we received a late notice AND a pre-lien warning. Welcome to the neighborhood. Didn't know who the Board was, when and where they met. Most importantly, didn't have a set of rules, and when we did request them, they sent the wrong one. They had been revised the month we moved in. They also didn't disclose we were walking in with a special assessment to pay for.

Two years ago that all changed. Through our management company, we now provide in all disclosure packages:
1) ALL governing documents (Articles, CCRs, Bylaws, Rules and Regulations and Cost Sharing Agreement)
2) ALL General Session minutes for the most recent 12 months.
3) Most recent financial report (Balance Sheet, Income/Expense Statement and Reserve Allocations)
4) Insurance Declaration (Common Area)
5) Current Annual Disclosure Statement as required to be distributed to members annually. This includes our collection policy, for both assessments and water.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
To add a couple of other things as the submit button pushed itself.

We sent a welcome letter out with the package giving the buyer a good "first impression".

The only time I can think of that this doesn't work is when a buyer pays cash and avoids escrow.

We use an online escrow document service which saves TIME and MONEY. All the documents are uploaded one time and the only document that has to be updated is the property's current or delinquent balances.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
I had two Iowa attorneys tell me that if documents were not recorded they were not enforceable. So I think one could certainly make the argument if a rule was not recorded its not enforceable. One of the attorney's even told me that the information has to be available to be found. He was the attorney who did our title search and opinion.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 02/14/2014 11:50 AM
Bank,

Two years ago that all changed. Through our management company, we now provide in all disclosure packages:
1) ALL governing documents (Articles, CCRs, Bylaws, Rules and Regulations and Cost Sharing Agreement)
2) ALL General Session minutes for the most recent 12 months.
3) Most recent financial report (Balance Sheet, Income/Expense Statement and Reserve Allocations)
4) Insurance Declaration (Common Area)
5) Current Annual Disclosure Statement as required to be distributed to members annually. This includes our collection policy, for both assessments and water.

Wow, this is really great.

Now how do you find out that your neighbor likes to walk around outside in his bikini underwear, another neighbor has a secret stash of pot growing in his house, that another one has dogs as big as small ponies who like to come and visit and deposit their presents on your doorstep, or your married neighbor makes multiple daily trips past your house to visit his gal pal.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Banks

When did you visit my neighborhood?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
any COMPETANT attorney would ask WELL BEFORE 'closing'

on behalf of their client

for:

letter of estoppel (referring to assessments and violations)

PLUS

the following question:

"Are there any special assessments payable OR CONTEMPLATED?"

if the BOD has discussed even the POTENTIAL for an upcoming special assessment and fails to disclose same - ?????????????? - PERSONAL DIRECTOR LIBILITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

however, a competent attorney would be $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

so, the typical buyer is later 'shocked'

a competent attorney's main function is to protect their client from:

CAVEAT EMPTOR
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BanksS on 02/14/2014 12:42 PM
I had two Iowa attorneys tell me that if documents were not recorded they were not enforceable. So I think one could certainly make the argument if a rule was not recorded its not enforceable. One of the attorney's even told me that the information has to be available to be found. He was the attorney who did our title search and opinion.

The CCRs are recorded - they reference the presence of rules (resolutions)
ErikaC (Virginia)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Tim,

Not to toot my own horn. But I did work with then Senator Herring for the amendment (sb628 legislative session 2012) on requiring additional disclosures under the VA POA act and the ability for resident controlled HOAs to vacate a multi decade contract. It was a 24 month process of constant lobbying, end running the CAI and getting support of committee chairs for the house of delegates and state senate, so the bill didn't die in Committee. My first attempt was in 2011, SB1253 sponsored by Holtzman-Vogel died in committee.

The reason is (similar to Chris, NJ, who apparently deems I'm worthy of responding to). I had had enough of my master Hoa, who granted exclusive easements and refused to modify them and went so far as to send me a cease and desist letter. They refused to answer my questions about the easements on my property. These blanket easements and lack of disclosure meant measurable financial injury, not just to me, but thousands in VA. When I purchased my home in 2004 there's was zero record of these easements and the County's LOLA system (digital land records) mysteriously didn't have a scanned copy of the 3 easements, it literally took me 8 months, searching 9,593 boxes at the County's document warehouse to get my hands on the HOA's easements. And when I discovered that the master HOA, builder and Country tried to conceal these easements, I refused to give up the right until the law was corrected.

The short version: Developer granted a blanket utility easement, set up a communications company and then rebranded their communications company to unsuspecting homeowners. The Hoa contract (which the developer sat on both sides of the table and receives a. 8% and 12% kickback) is 75 years. Even though Federal Publicly policy states easements are not to be used for a monopoly. Homeowners not only had the "rights" of their own property sold off without their knowledge, but it also affected the common areas.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 02/15/2014 9:18 AM
any COMPETANT attorney would ask WELL BEFORE 'closing'

on behalf of their client

for:

letter of estoppel (referring to assessments and violations)

PLUS

the following question:

"Are there any special assessments payable OR CONTEMPLATED?"

if the BOD has discussed even the POTENTIAL for an upcoming special assessment and fails to disclose same - ?????????????? - PERSONAL DIRECTOR LIBILITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

however, a competent attorney would be $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

so, the typical buyer is later 'shocked'

a competent attorney's main function is to protect their client from:

CAVEAT EMPTOR

While some states use an attorney in the process of escrow/title, this doesn't apply to the majority of states. Unless it's some celebrity buying a house here in Malibu for $10M, I have never seen or heard of an attorney in California involved in the transaction.
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Tim - Toot away. You served this country, you do/say WHATEVER YOU WANT. You have earned it!! With that said, my BOD "trustee" was the developer of MY COA and made a land deal with a particular mullet-billion dollar gas company as developer. That was honored DECADES ago. No new easements are recorded in the county for what they STOLE now and I can't (even through litigation/discovery) get my hands on the documents that resulted in this latest illegal land grab (at the former developer/present "trustee"'s doing/at his OWN office/in secret).

But I suspect that there are deals within deals that haven't been disclosed and he and a few other "trustees" are being paid very well for giving away land to them without the right to do so. The judge, Judge Buchsbaum, in bed with developers when an attorney, dismissed my count on this matter (convenient) and then denied my OTSC to stop their "grab" in February 2013 (via an illegal contract not signed/witnessed/notarized) because he ---- in his bias and deliberate stupidity --- claimed the land was "condemned" by FERC.

Make it up as you because no such "condemnation" exists. Games, games, kickbacks, pay-offs and more games. So be it. Like I said, there is ALWAYS NJ District Federal Court and courts beyond that. I'll get to the bottom of this... I mean, I am now dealing with a multi-billion dollar company who interfered with a contract... I would think it's possible a solid law firm might see a profitable reason for taking this on as a class action in time.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 02/15/2014 9:20 AM
Posted By BanksS on 02/14/2014 12:42 PM
I had two Iowa attorneys tell me that if documents were not recorded they were not enforceable. So I think one could certainly make the argument if a rule was not recorded its not enforceable. One of the attorney's even told me that the information has to be available to be found. He was the attorney who did our title search and opinion.


The CCRs are recorded - they reference the presence of rules (resolutions)

There is no reference in the recorded CCR's of the presence of rules or bylaws or an HOA. I once owned property in Nebraska that had deed restrictions but no HOA or rules or bylaws. So there are instances where there are CCR's but no HOA attached to them.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ErikaC on 02/15/2014 10:43 AM
Tim,

Not to toot my own horn. But I did work with then Senator Herring for the amendment (sb628 legislative session 2012) on requiring additional disclosures under the VA POA act and the ability for resident controlled HOAs to vacate a multi decade contract. It was a 24 month process of constant lobbying, end running the CAI and getting support of committee chairs for the house of delegates and state senate, so the bill didn't die in Committee. My first attempt was in 2011, SB1253 sponsored by Holtzman-Vogel died in committee.

OUTSTANDING

Like I said, I like the Laws in VA as the pertain to HOAs.
I congratulate you on your work.

I don't have the personality to affect such change on a macro level. I'm glad you do as work can be done on both the micro and the macro levels.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/15/2014 11:26 AM

Tim - Toot away. You served this country, you do/say WHATEVER YOU WANT. You have earned it!!

Chris,

Thank you for the kind words. I think everyone should be able to say what they want providing they can 1) back up statements of fact with facts and 2) be civil about it.

As I said in previous posts on this and other threads, your posts certainly point out issues within your Association. You, who have far more knowledge of your situation and the facts involved than anyone who has responded to your posts, have made the decision that legal action is your best avenue to resolve the issues. As I've said before, I wish you luck.

I, and apparently others, do believe that you wasted energy filing legal action against the judge based on actions as a judge. There may have been better ways to deal with that. However, we have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight on the issue (as do most armchair quarterbacks).

Again, as I said, this is the path you have chosen to correct the issues you have with your Association. This path has proven to be successful to you in the past (I refer to the condition of your condo you spoke of that was resolved). I sincerely hope it proves to be successful to you again.

ErikaC (Virginia)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Chris,

I could be wrong but I think you have a Federal path as well as a State path. Allow me to explain:

Federal: HUD does have somewhat tight controls on housing regulations. And the FTC has some level of jurisdiction as it relates to utilities/trade. Also ask your Congressman for a meeting, he/she might help you get a federal probe. In my case Congressman Wolf requested an FCC probe. I was also allowed to testify before the US House of Reps Technology Committee and that lead to 12+ meetings with the FCC. And an actual meeting with the FCC Commissioner before their rule making on exclusive access (FCC docket# 07-51).

At the same time I was able to convince my County to ask the VA Attorney General for a probe. If you believe the Circuit Court (assuming this is Federal and not a State Circuit Court), I'd also suggest calling your local FBI office...what your describing sounds pretty much like racketeering...which is under the wheelhouse of the FBI.

State Level: this might be helpful and I realize VA is NOT NJ....but here's what I did, I zeroed in on the state statues, researched the committee assignments and became very familiar with the legislative session and powers to be. Then I became a pitbull, I sat in several Delegates & State Senators office until they agreed to meet with me. At the same time I lobbied my County Board of Supervisors to push the County State Delegation to take my concerns seriously. For nearly 2 years I emailed, called and scheduled meetings. I did a carefully analysis of the current laws and then drafted proposed language to amend the current laws. Realizing I only needed 1 law maker to sponsor my proposed amendment, I then went on a media blitz, writing numerous letters to the editors etc. But the biggest tip I can give you, is attend a committee meeting (land/transportation/utility etc) and provide the committee members testimony. And my last tip would be when taking with lawmakers you've got to get them hooked, you literally have less than 90 seconds to state your case.

I know your issues with your POA are incredibly complicated. But if you can drill it down to a couple of facts, point to where the current state laws are lacking and then offer to write a draft of any proposed legislation....that was my recipe for success. And yes I took on a multibillion dollar communications company & the 3rd largest home builder in VA.
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeanneK3 on 02/14/2014 8:23 AM
Chris:
Maryland has a law similar to Virginia's. The seller must give the potential buyer what is called a "resale package" with all the information you talk about at least 15(?) days before closing. The buyer can choose to back out the deal and his/her deposit money must be returned.
Jeanne

We need that here. I've taken some of the advice on this site and will seek to see about getting a similar law put into place. It's too late for me, but I want others to walk in with their eyes open. I feel bad for anyone who moves into this horrific COA. They have no idea how bad it is until it's too late. And it's only bad because five people control EVERYTHING. We have no votes on ANYTHING. So you can imagine how the rules get made in their favor and to give them more control. They have even stripped people of their right to run/vote based on their own dictate which is illegal according to the governing documents. It's crazy illegal over here.
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ErikaC on 02/15/2014 2:37 PM
Chris,

I know your issues with your POA are incredibly complicated. But if you can drill it down to a couple of facts, point to where the current state laws are lacking and then offer to write a draft of any proposed legislation....that was my recipe for success. And yes I took on a multibillion dollar communications company & the 3rd largest home builder in VA.

Yes, they are. But your information is most helpful. I thank you. It's nice that informative people enter the conversation. Most helpful.
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/15/2014 12:36 PM
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/15/2014 11:26 AM

I, and apparently others, do believe that you wasted energy filing legal action against the judge based on actions as a judge. There may have been better ways to deal with that. However, we have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight on the issue (as do most armchair quarterbacks).

Again, as I said, this is the path you have chosen to correct the issues you have with your Association. This path has proven to be successful to you in the past (I refer to the condition of your condo you spoke of that was resolved). I sincerely hope it proves to be successful to you again.


Tim, please don't take the bait. I never mentioned my suit against the judge and I WILL NOT discuss that suit on this site. This was brought to this site by another party looking to change the subject (and has in that you are now discussing what I have NEVER mentioned). Please don't take the bait.

My case against the judge was NOT posted by me and was not anything I ever mentioned -- nor will I. But as you have said, I have chosen my path and only for reasons that I know. And I will stay on my path. Yes, it was a battle the last time and it will be a battle this time. As it stands now, the only thing the courts can do is rid me from their presence because hearing my facts and giving me due process would result in findings they don't want to find. But not every court can. And eventually, I will be before a judge who actually follows and gives the law.

My biggest realization throughout this situation and reading case law is so many owners must have been dismissed, tossed aside, disregarded before the light of day ever shown upon them. How many? How many owners in how many courts got the "boot" before they got a chance to be heard? If you throw people out before they have a trial, make it impossible for them to be heard or force them into the incredibly complex world of the appellate division, what chance does a simple owner have without serious money and a LOT OF TIME to keep the battle going? Appeals are not cheap nor are copies, depositions, subpoenas. It all costs and I would think a lot of people can't afford a lawyer and cannot keep up the battle when the courts play with a pro se litigant like a cat does with a mouse.

The courts know what they are doing. And they are trying to do it to me. But I'm not going anywhere and, despite their best hopes, I figured out how to appeal. And although I'm sure they will find a reason why that should be "tossed" as well, there is always another court. And I will go there. Newark isn't far from my home and that is where the NJ District Court resides. So bring it on!

Like you with those boxes, I'm not going anywhere until I get my day in court.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/15/2014 7:06 PM

My case against the judge was NOT posted by me and was not anything I ever mentioned -- nor will I.

Granted, you never brought the issue up directly. However, you did encourage people to look at your situation by posting links to your site and youtube video. As you have seen, the posters of this site are very good at doing research and, when researching discovered the issue.

I never asked that you discuss your case. I was just using it as an example to illustrate my point.

Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/15/2014 7:06 PM

My biggest realization throughout this situation and reading case law is so many owners must have been dismissed, tossed aside, disregarded before the light of day ever shown upon them. How many? How many owners in how many courts got the "boot" before they got a chance to be heard?

As I understand it, and I am not an attorney nor do I work in the legal profession, cases are typically dismissed because the member brought the matter before the wrong court, didn't fully understand the governing documents and/or applicable statutes or didn't understand the legal process.

If you recall, what were the reasons in the cases you are referring to? I ask, because it may help others to properly state their cases if they choose the legal route.

Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/15/2014 7:06 PM

If you . . .force them into the incredibly complex world of the appellate division, what chance does a simple owner have without serious money and a LOT OF TIME to keep the battle going?

A questions. However, that is the way our current legal system works.

Some States have created ombudsman offices to try and give another avenue of redress for members. Typically these offices are not part of the legal system but they may have the authority to issue monetary penalties to the Association if they are at fault. Additionally, a member can take the ombudsman's determination with them into court if needed (which gives an independent review of the issue for the judge to consider).
Perhaps you can lobby your State legislature to create such an office. Typically the offices are funded by mandated annual reporting fees by the Associations, so cost should be minimal or not an issue.

Quote:
Posted By ChrisA13 on 02/15/2014 7:06 PM

I'm not going anywhere until I get my day in court.

Again, I wish you luck.
ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120
Posted:
Tim, my first posting suggested going to my site on which nothing about any case involving a judge was noted. Granted, people can do their research and clearly they have. Regardless, I never mentioned it nor did I ever ask for input on that or ask for any legal advice. This is an HOA site. That is what I have been discussing.

With this said, I don't need to alter my path. And you are not clear on how cases get dismissed. The courts are filled with appeals of cases that were wrongly dismissed by the trial judge. Many, many, many cases on both the federal and state level.

Judges do not always have a basis in law to dismiss, but "reach" for a reason which is overturned when a higher court looks at the legal reasoning behind the dismissal.

As I've stated, I believe it's easy to rid the court of pro se litigants at the trial level (and make sure they never get a trial) because most won't be able to handle the complexity of the appellate court. In that you appear to have never walked this walk, the assumption that a court is always fair and dismisses for reasons within the law is proven (based on case law) to be not the case.

Judges can make "harmful" errors in their rulings (and do ALL the time) and the appellate court is required by law to correct these improper findings. Sadly, most people cannot "jump the hurdles" of making an appeal to reach the finish line. And, by default, the trial court has succeeded in their goal. That is the reality as case law shows in not only my state, but many other states.

And I don't think it's by coincidence either....

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Not to toot my own horn but I have been working with a few state reps to be sure a pending bill to regulate HOA's stays dead in a SC Senate Committee.

SC does have a bill that controls condo, multi unit buildings (SC Horizontal Property Act) but not one that covers any other type structure HOA like townhomes, stand alone home etc.

I feel SC Articles of Incorporation, Covenants/Bylaws, and SC Laws are sufficient. We do not need politicians and bureaucrats telling us how to run our associations.

SC pretty well leaves businesses and corporations alone and allows them to operate pretty freely.

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