Fee to Inspect Books

Our articles of incorporation state that every property owner has the right to inspect the HOA books and paperwork during business hours. There is no mention of any right to charge for this service.

Our board has just outsourced their day to day work with a third party management company and this company is trying to charge me to access the books. I do not believe they have the right to charge me because I have the right to inspect the books whether I am rich or poor.

Thoughts anyone? I am in Columbus, OH

5312.07 Examination of books and records.

(A) Unless otherwise prohibited by this section, any owner may examine and copy the books, records, and minutes of the owners association that division (C) of section 5312.06 of the Revised Code describes, pursuant to reasonable standards set forth in the declaration, bylaws, or rules the board promulgates. The standards may include, but are not limited to, standards governing the type of documents that are subject to examination and copying, the times and locations at which those documents may be examined or copied, and the specification of a reasonable fee for copying the documents.

(B) Unless approved by the board of directors, an owner may not examine or copy any of the following from books, records, and minutes:

(1) Information that pertains to property-related personnel matters;

(2) Communications with legal counsel or attorney work product pertaining to potential, threatened or pending litigation, or other property-related matters;

(3) Information that pertains to contracts or transactions currently under negotiation, or information that is contained in a contract or other agreement containing confidentiality requirements and that is subject to those requirements;

(4) Information that relates to the enforcement of the declaration, bylaws, or rules of the owners association against other owners;

(5) Information, the disclosure of which is prohibited by state or federal law.

Added by 128th General AssemblyFile No.41,SB 187, §1, eff. 9/10/2010.

Thanks for the post. Suppose someone cant afford the 35 dollars an hour they want, i wouldnt think that would take away from the home owners legal right to inspect the books.

That is an excellent point. I suspect for some individuals, $35 can be the difference between getting a prescription filled or not. For other individuals, it may simply require that they give up going to the restaurant one day that week.

Some State legislatures have addressed this issue by only allowing charges for copies and not for viewing. Some have not.

Unfortunately, to determine if your point has merit, you may need to seek relief through the courts. Of course, if you can't find an attorney to represent you pro bono, and it goes to the courts, the court may conclude that if you can afford an attorney at $200+ an hour you can likely afford the fee required to review your documents.

If you are truly having financial difficulties to where you are unable to pay for 1 or 2 hours to view the documents you are seeking, you can always contact the Board and request a waiver of those fees. Be aware that the Board will likely use visible signs when considering your request. Therefore, if you are driving around in a new vehicle or have a lot of recreation vehicles on your property, they might think that you can afford the fee and deny your request.

As I said, you made a very interesting point and one I think legislatures should consider addressing.

Well, then you need to check the applicable State statutes to see if they allow charges. You also need to see if your governing documents or applicable State statues prohibit charging fees.

Since, from your posting, your Association has already informed you that they will be charging a fee, you really only have a few choices:

1) Pay the fee.

2) Contact the Board and request a waiver of those fees.

3) Seek relief through the courts.

4) Don't review the documents.

5) Gather support and recall the Board or simply don't reelect them at the next election and replace them with others who think as you do that the Association should absorb the charges from the management company associated with reviewing documents. Perhaps even you could be elected to the Board and be part of the decision process.

The fact that they board decided to outsource their job doesnt take away my rights. The board will have to eat the costs of this management company. There are no provisions about paying. If i am poor and cant pay that doesnt mean i dont have the right to inspect the books. We need federal regulations, this bs is out of hand.

The Board = The Association = The membership = YOU

Mark, personally, based on what you have posted, I agree with you that you should not have to pay a fee to review the records. However, I don't have access to everything you have access to.

Have you approached the Board (not the management company) asking that they waive this fee?

BTW - as for legislation, be careful what you ask for. It's typically better to change things from within then to have an outside entity tell you how things will run.

Roger raises a valid point.

The concern is someone on a witch hunt just ordering/wanting copies of everything. We see it over and over on here. Someone says well I think something is wrong/hidden, so I want a copy of "everything" over the last 5 years. It is going to take time and effort to produce such. Even if all electronically stored it would have to be redacted so not to infringe on someone's privacy. This will take someone's time. I say provide anything they want, but not at our/my cost.

I am by no means saying Mike is on a witch hunt but let us face reality. Things cost money and I am not going to pay for someone's whim.

Jon tends to get really excited about the thought of voluntarily disclosing information. I keep our records in such a manner (electronic, private issues kept separate etc.) that it is not a big deal if someone requests to view them.

Every year at the annual meeting I remind the membership that the books and records are open for inspection. I will let them know I am disappointed that no one has asked to see them in a particular year. If I was not the treasurer, I would definitely want an occasional look at things (without being accused of being on a witch hunt).

I think that kind of transparency cultivates a much healthier atmosphere than the stink of secrecy in the "real world" that Jon reigns supreme over

Feel better Val.

Must be tough doing everything perfect.

Guess you get excited when others don't see the world YOUR way.

You have your records all in order, I will forward you a gold star.

I just wonder how many people really care about your record keeping talents. My guess few to none.

Seems you have some deep rooted NEED to control everything. What you do matters to me not at all.

Just because you say so does not require that I or anyone else falls in line with YOUR way.

But when your day to day life is out of control sometimes you find yourself trying to impose your version of order on others.

Mom and Dad must be oh so proud.

Forgive me if I fail to consider how "Valerie thinks it should be done".

I could not care any less how you handle things.

Doing just fine thanks for asking.......

In both cases as part of litigation.

Both parties claimed some form of underhanded dealings which they alone were now aware of.

In the end they both lost their claims.

And yes if a property has existed for some time a vague demand for the property's records could include years of files and thousands of documents. What then?

And just who then pays for this need for transparency?

VAL

I do not see this as a voluntary, you are entitled to the information issue. Those things I agree with you on.

I do see it more as a time/cost issue.

Yes all books should be open for inspection. That said who is going to redact my credit card/checking account information that I allow the association to bill my dues against?

Not "all" information is available to all simply upon request.

When I quit as President of my HOA, I was accused of "stealing and not providing" the HOA records by the new board. That was one of many lies they made up about me to disparage my good name and to get the crooked things they wanted. I was still on the board myself at this time but only in the capacity of "Transition assistance". The new board were the very people I had spent years protecting the other members from. It was at a time in my life where I had chosen to move on and let all those who I had protected see the truth. Which they did within a short time and thus how I knew about all the lies the new board had spread. (One BOD even tried to physically attack me). I bring this up so one can see some real effects of accusing one of NOT providing records or hiding information they never were. For over 6 months I had to be called a "liar" behind my back and ALL my hard work being scrutinized as "shady". Eventually the truth came out and people had their eyes opened. It was a very hard and dark period for me knowing all the sacrifice and effort I had put into my HOA to put it on the right track and healing it from a con-man who had used it for his personal gains.

I take providing records and being open with membership VERY seriously. EVERY single meeting I had the records were on full display and reviewed openly in front of everyone. The minutes of the meeting posted above the mailboxes for ALL to see. There were not many records kept at our accountant's office. I know because when I became President I had to go find ALL our HOA's records myself. I spent weeks looking through them and organizing them. Even buying folders and supplies to separate the issues properly. The records were in good working order (I was trained as a secretary). If you wanted a recorded from 20 years ago, just ask me and I'd find it if it existed. Even showed everyone where the records were kept... IN THE CLOSET OF THE CLUBHOUSE WHERE THE MEETINGS WERE HELD. Some hiding place huh? I could easily go and take them out if there were questions during a meeting.

Honestly, I think people would find the records of their HOA underwhelming. They aren't what you may think they are. I know we had 20 years of records that fit into 1 box! that was 1 office box! The financial reports were of course kept with the accountant. However, each meeting we provided a copy to whoever attended or wanted to ask for a copy. We'd get the documents the day of the meeting and hand them out. What was in the financial reports and collections (board only) was discussed at our meetings and fully reviewed in front of anyone in attendance.

To me if you want to see and know what is going on with your HOA, it is NOT in the records. It is in ATTENDANCE of your HOA meetings and your participation level. You just want to pay your dues and let the HOA do it's job, then fine. If you want to be part of the decision making, join the board. You want to be informed, go to a meeting. All in all it is NOT the records that make the HOA work. It's the effort you put in and knowing the results you want. Which I find most don't know the result they want, just to point out their complaints. That's why my long standing rule in the HOA and even in life? Do NOT bring me an issue without a solution. You don't have a solution in mind, then I am NOT going to find one for you. I don't care what the solution you think it should be. Just don't present an idea without a purpose and end point.

Some states do not require open meetings. In my HOA, members can attend an annual meeting and that is it. I actually learned a lot about my HOA by reviewing the records.

Seriously, written or electronic records do not take that much time to retrieve and copy. The management company should offer this as a courtesy for having the business. Yes, charge for the paper copies but I believe the time it takes to retrieve and copy documents is minimal. I retrieve documents for people everyday on my job. It really does not take that much time.

Jon are you sure you are "doing just fine"? Your blood pressure must be sky-high. Not to belabor the obvious, but you WILL see a WIDE VARIETY of opinions on a wide variety of subjects on this public forum. Your reactions to posters and postings you disagree with indicate an alarming lack of control.

It would behoove you to humble yourself to the point where you can tolerate a different point of view without resorting to the rants you have become well known for.

Attached PDF is a better format, but I also cut and pasted below my issues. After several letters to the board with no resolution I sent this around to all residents.
(This morning I got a notice from a realty web site that the person who is our president put his townhouse up for sale)

• AS HOME OWNERS WE DO NOT RECOGNIZE THE CODE OF REGULATIONS THE BOARD IS REFERRING TO IN THE MOST RECENT LETTER BECAUSE THEY ARE NON BINDING BECAUSE OF HOW THE BOARD DID NOT PROPERLY GET THEM VOTED IN.
o Ohio Revised Code section 5312.05 AS WELL AS OUR ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION state that amendments to declarations or bylaws can only be done if
 a meeting is DULY called for the purpose of voting on these amendments and 75% of votes, either in person or in proxy, approve the new amendments.
• Our board never duly called any meetings for the purpose of voting on the issue of adding a code of regulation in 2004. We were also never given the opportunity to send a person to vote in our proxy for this issue.,
• Our board never duly called any meetings for the purpose of voting on the issue of amending the code of regulations in 2010. We were also never given the opportunity to send a person to vote in our proxy for this issue.
• THE BOARD PURPOSELY AND WILLFULLY DID NOT TELL US THERE WOULD BE ANY VOTE DURING THE JANUARY 2014 MEETING--MAKING THIS VOTE INVALID
o The intent of our board was to trick home owners into thinking this would be another meeting of mere discussion about what they had budgeted. The board knew the extra money would not be approved had we all been given the opportunity to vote either in person or in proxy.
o Ohio laws mandates the notice of the vote be given at least 10 days before the meeting.
o There are those of us who work or are disabled or whose religious Sabbath fell during this meeting. We have the right to know in advance that a vote is taking place so we can make proper arrangements and send someone in our proxy to vote on our behalf if we are unable to attend.
 The board is fully aware of the law and they fulfilled their legal obligation during the July 2013 meeting when they sent a notice of a vote AND proxy forms for the first time in our association's history for the July 2013 meeting.
 The mere fact the board did not fulfill their legally obligated requirements of giving advance notice of a vote and send a proxy form to each home owner makes the January 2014 vote to increase our budget and add a special assessment invalid and non binding.
• Ohio Revised Code section 5312.10 states ASSESSMENTS ARE TO COVER THE COSTS OF COMMON EXPENSES. Third party management fees fall under "common expenses" and this fee is NOT considered a special assessment. Special assessments are not a legal method of bypassing our 5% rule.
o As home owners we do not acknowledge the Code of Regulation, but in regards to the board's reference to the code of regulation Article XII Section 2.c, it does state that special assessments must follow the guidelines of the Articles of Incorporation.
 The articles do not allow any assessment except the annual assessment, however, if they are referring to the method of voting found in the articles of incorporation, than, prior to January 1, 2014 a meeting duly called for the purpose of increasing the budget and increasing the assessment needed to take place with votes accepted in person or in proxy.
• THERE IS A DEADLINE FOR VOTING ON THE BUDGET AND ASSESSMENT. Our deadline for voting on budget increases and assessments is before January 1. This date is firm.
o The board indicates in their most recent letter that THEY, the board, approved the budget, which is more than 5% increase over last year, and that they approved it prior to January 1.
 The board does not have the power to vote on ANY budget higher than 5% over the previous year. Their vote does not count.
o If the board wanted to have a budget higher than 5% over the previous year it was their duty to call a meeting for the purpose of voting and obtaining a 2/3 vote of approval prior to 12/31/2013.
 January 11 is the date of the meeting where a total of six people voted impromptu on behalf of 44 home owners. This date is past the deadline, making the vote irrelevant for 2014.
 Were these six people who voted four board members and two non board members?
• THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT $100.00. THE ISSUE IS ABOUT THE BOARD NOT FOLLOWING LAWS. NOW IS THE TIME TO EITHER TAKE BACK OUR ASSOCIATION OR SELL OUR LAND AND DISOLVE OUR ASSOCIATION AS OUTLINED THE ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION.

"Everyone has to do it Val's way to be perfect just
like Val....... "

Jon you crack me up. Show me where I've ever posted that I am perfect or that anything has to be done my way. Oops - you can't. I simply state what has worked for me and for the Community I belong to - and readers are free to read, not read, agree, disagree or whatever.

Thank you for PERFECTLY illustrating my point with another rant though...

Valerie, Bank et al, when we are talking about the MC charging a fee to dig up records, we're not talking about the everyday easily obtainable records like minutes or financials. We're talking about the stuff stored away in the bankers boxes that haven't been opened for years and years. You know the ones with the thick coating of dust on them and if you're lucky a date, that get transferred from MC to MC but contain the receipt for the box of screws that the maintenance guy purchased ten years ago, that somehow proves the assertion that the Board is corrupt.

Seriously, just hand the member the damn box and let them sift through it. What expense is there in that?

Well now that is risky business to allow a member to sift through a dusty box of old HOA records. LOL

So Banks if I wanted, and I do not, to take a look at your tax returns for the last say 15 years you would hand them over?

Or would it just be OK to hand over the one copy of the corporation's financials and HOPE nothing happened to them? Seriously?

Hell what could go wrong there...................Bring them back when you are done.

It amazes me that someone continues to come onto this site and downplay transparency when in fact their own state doesn't require that meetings be open, probably that homeowners are not entitled to actually question what goes on in their community, unless, god forbid, they actually "stepped up to the plate" and contributed to the community. Actually paying your assessments month after month or year after year, without fail, is contributing to their community. Their doing so actually pays for getting things done.

What does Melissa always say? A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members. If I want the tax returns for a specific year and I have given adequate notice, then, yes, I demand to view them or have a copy. In California, member have a right to inspect the books and in need be, have copies made for them. The only difference between a homeowner's request and a Board member request, is the Board member can't be charged.

Someone pointed out that maybe the association doesn't have the technology available as maybe a management company, but the fact is, I don't think the legislators thought about that or even care.