Paying for code compliant chairs

The local fire dept.

That said.... Specifically, what fire codes are you citing that said the furniture needs to be replaced? I've never heard of such a thing being "required" to replace something, but I've heard of requirements that newly manufactured goods meet stricter standards.

Its like antique cars. No one is putting airbags in a 1950's mustang, but new mustangs are required to have them.

Whatever happens, you should still follow the rules in voting for expenses. There is no emergency.

The issue is that when chairs are not permanently secured to the floor, (such as theatre style use in an HOA social hall) the fire code requires that be "ganged" together in group of no fewer than three and no more than seven. The Fire Marshall has already told us that we are in violation of such code every time our assemble is greater than 200. And to compound the issue, our insurance company signaled that since we know about our non-comliance with fire codes, they will likely deny any claim that may arise in the event of an injury or worse.

The Florida Fire Prevention Code (FFPC) is derived from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Fire Code® (NFPA 1) and the Life Safety Code® (NFPA 101), and is defined in Florida Statute 633.

The specific requirements for seating are found in FFPC 1: 20.1.5.10:
“20.1.5.10.1 Secured Seating.
20.1.5.10.1.1 Seats in assembly occupancies accommodating more than 200 persons shall be securely fastened to the floor, except where fastened together in groups of not less than three and as permitted by 20.1.5.10.2. [101:12.7.9.1.1; 101:13.7.9.1.1]”

The Florida Fire Prevention Code and the above referenced requirements may be viewed on line at the Division of State Fire Marshal website http://www.myfloridacfo.com/Division/SFM/ under the Fire Prevention tab, Florida Fire Prevention Code.

What is the permitted occupancy of the room with chairs? Without chairs?

The need relates primarily to our annual sold out show series of paid entertainment. There are about ten per year. Add to that the in house chorus and actors clubs that sell out. The social hall seats about 500 in theatre style and 250 around tables. Table seating is not an issue.

Our HOA meetings where large numbers attend are limited to our annual meeting, candidate’s night, budget meeting and several town hall meetings per year.

Still looking for the answer to my question.

Steve

Thank you but what I am looking for relates to a competent authority that would provide an override to restrictions in order to accomplish implementing corrective action in the case of a health and or safety issue. If you don’t know, then so be it. Let others offer information.

Sandy

1) Are the chairs necessary for the function of the hall?
2) Because you mention $25,000 and are purchasing 400 chairs, are you saying that each chair costs at least $62.50?

It's not necessarily keeping the spirit of the law, however, have you considered spending less than $25,000? Perhaps two orders of 200 chairs each, perhaps a month or two apart?

Of course, as others have said, you could simply conduct the meeting. Explain the situation and consequences of not bringing the place into compliance with the fire codes. Then encourage everyone to vote by proxy or by mail. Until it's competed, simply limit the number of attendees for the functions you hold so you meet the fire code.

How big is the area where guests are seating? Per FFPC 20.1.5.10.2.2 (note, I had to add an exception via the java control panel to access the FFPC which is why I provided a link to the page that has the link), unsecured seating is allowed provided there is no more than one chair per every 15 square feet of space.

Personally, based on what you provided, I believe that you will need to hold the meeting and get approval. The other real option, as I see it, is to disregard the spirit of that section of your governing documents (which I don't recommend but list it as an option) and make multiple orders keeping each one under 25K. Then see what the fallout is. There may or may not be cries of mistrust and violation of the governing documents from the membership.

It sounds like the problem here isn't the chairs. It's the lack of trust and not wanting to give up control of the HOA funds. One of the hardest things as being a board member or officer is giving up that "control" of the HOA budget. You know as a board member you are to act on the best behalf of the members. It was why you were elected. You also know you have enough "Squeeky wheeled nutjobs" who always want the money to go to the next hair brained idea. No one seems to want to agree on one idea or solution.

The best piece of advice I ever got was this: The HOA money is NOT your money! It is ALL the member's money. You have to manage that money based on what the MAJORITY of owners want. If they want to spend the money painting the roads "red". The HOA's BOD job is to get quotes, buy the supplies, hire the contractor, and have the roads painted "Red". Is that a stupid idea and waste? YES!!! The board isn't there always to "protect" the HOA from doing stupid insane ideas. It is to do what the members want and with their voting powers put forth within reason and the law.

I like to use this as an example: It is like putting your checkbook on the dining room table for the whole family to see. Each family member also has a say in how the checks are written. You would be the "President" as the head of household. The spouse would be the other "board member" and the kids the "general membership". How many times have you had to buy a new X-box game to satisfy the kids? How many times did you buy something you wanted? How many times has the spouse bought something without telling you about it? That is essentially what you got when you have a HOA budget...

Now in your situation... Yes it would be sooo sooo sooo great to circumvent the system and go buy the chairs. However, if you present the case to the members. Lay out the reasons. Invite the fire marshall if need be. Hold the meeting and vote. You may just surprise yourself and the rest of the BOD, that the members can be trusted and it's okay to release some of that "control". It is just your fear the right thing won't be done with the funds that is stopping this from happening. It's not necessarily the members...

Larry,

I think the room can accommodate 500 in a theater layout or 250 if they use large round tables.

However, there does seem to be some variations in the postings so it could be a bogus post or it could be that the OP hasn't done all the research yet.

Sandy's initial thread was asking if chairs actually had to be ganged. This sounds like she was trying to verify something she had heard. The advice given back was to ask the local fire chief.

Sandy's next posting on the same topic was this thread. In this thread the section of the code was cited and we were given the location of the code that the citation came from. The other information provided I interpreted as examples of the reason she doesn't want to take the time for the membership vote on the issue. Although the time of taking a vote probably won't delay the purchase more than 4-6 weeks it appears that the hall is used often for various events and this delay (combined with the time needed to fill the order) may require canceling one of those events.

Sandy doesn't indicate if she is on the Board or not. Perhaps she is just on the committee or is simply involved in most of the productions and trying to assist by doing research on her own to see if the chairs can get purchased quicker. Perhaps it is another posting by the same individual/s who hit the site over the past few days.

I honestly don't know. However, I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt.

If I was running your HOA I would see the problem like this.....

New chairs - $50,000
Ganging brackets for existing chairs - $5,000
Limit the function room to 200 people, put extra chairs in storage or sell - $0

Thank you all very much for your thoughts and suggestions. The information provided gives me plenty to think about as I will attempt to resolve the problem. I apologize to those who felt I was trying to obtain legal advice, as I was not.

HOATalk.com remains a viable site for people to exchange ideas and provide their experiences for the benefit of others.