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MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
I really need some clarification on this rule.

I live in a subdivision of 65 homes with values from about $550,000 — $1,200,000. There is a homeowner that has fallen on hard time and has let his yard completely die (3-4 years without water) About a year ago I notices that on certain days his garage door was open and he was selling exercise equipment. Now he is selling washer's, dryer's and refrigerators. I've complained about this to the HOA President and he makes excuses for the situation. The President doesn't like to enforce the rules and the Property Manager backs him up. I've been told by the President that he has a business license, so I guess that makes it legal.

Below is the rule for business Use Restrictions in our HOA CC&R's. It was my understanding that if you could see it, hear it or smell it, it would not be allowed. Can anyone give me some good feed back about this?

NO BUSINESS USES. No trade or business may be conducted in or from any home, except that an owner or occupant residing in a home may conduct business activities within the home so long as: (a) the existence or operation of the business activity is not apparent or detectable by change in the ordinary traffic patterns for the subdivision, sight, sound or smell from outside the home, (b) the business activity conforms to all zoning requirements for subdivisions, and (c) the business activity is constant with the residential character and does not constitute a nuisance or a hazardous or offensive use, or threaten the safety of other residents. In the event of a dispute between an Owner and the Board Of Directors regarding compliance with this subsection, the decision of the board of Directors shall be final, conclusive and binding.
MissyP (Alabama)
Posts: 63
Posted:
What this means is that one can't "put a shingle up". That means one can't use their home as a "dentistry office" with a sign out front. It has to be lived in by the person and not used as a professionally licensed business such as doctor, lawyer, psychiatrist, or dentistry. However, businesses like home based may be exempt like Amway, Tupperware, or others because they do not generate traffic. Plus one does not put up a sign advertising the business.

If your that concerned, there is always the IRS. It will be up to them because one must file taxes claiming the business. In this economy, that may just come out as kind of cruel. My question is that does it bother you by access noise and traffic? Or the fact that a business is being run against the rules? Think of your reason and decide is it worth ruining someoene's life over?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
My opinion, and others will probably follow suit, is this activity constitute a business that is apparent and would be detectable because of increased traffic patterns. Having your garage open all day selling gym equipment, now washers and dryers. The rule was created to allow individuals who have a consultant job from home, a tax business without noticeable traffic, workers who telecommute from home. This person apparently has an appliance store open for business from his open garage. Most CCRs and/or rules require the garage door be closed when not in use, "normal use". Selling appliances with the door open, IMHO, doesn't constitute normal use.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Instead of complaining to the president, make a formal complaint to the Board. While the president may not like confrontation or may even be this guy's BFF, he doesn't get to decide whether or not to enforce the covenant. If the Board declines then you have the option of taking the homeowner to court to enforce yourself or if it were me, a complaint to your local city about the business in the residential neighborhood should cause the garage door to close.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
A garage sale to sell a few things is one issue. Open garage door and selling appliances several days a week is a business.

Report him to the BOD for a Covenant violation.
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:

I really want to understand if the rule as it's written is clear enough. We can all see this activity going on when the garage is open and the rule states that if you can see,hear or smell the business then you are breaking the rule. Is that not clear? The president does not want to accept that you can see this going on.
ValerieS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 244
Posted:
Is he selling off his personal household items or bringing in appliances from other sources to sell? If he is simply selling off everything he owns, that is not a "business".
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
Right now when his garage is open you see 3-4 sets of washing machines and 2-3 refridgerators. And does it really matter? Everyone has a garage sale from time to time, this has been going on for more than a year.

My question is, does the rule in our CC&R's allow for this activity?
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeR on 01/10/2014 9:18 AM
My question is, does the rule in our CC&R's allow for this activity?

And the majority response so far is no. But as I posted earlier if you keep complaining to the president and the president doesn't want to act then go around him. At least then you will know where the Board stands, who knows it might be time for some fresh blood one the Board.


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
Glen,

Our officers and the board are the same people, so there is no one to go to.

What I'm looking for is someone that can read the rule from my first entry and tell if it is clear enough to explain that if you can see him sell appliances in his garage that he is breaking the rule. I think he is. The president wants to let him do it. He feels feels bad for him.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Mike

Check you CCRs. Most of those documents have a provision whereas, the declarant (developer), association or any owner shall have the right, but not the obligation to enforcement the provision set forth in that document.

Owners have the right, if they so choose, and as a last resort, provisions specifically stated in the CCRs. Owners do not have the authority to enforce any item(s) in the Rules and Regulation, UNLESS, it is spelled out specifically in the CCRs. For example, the rules and regulations may state that the no business clause from the CCRs, but if the rules and regs states you have to remove trash can by 6:00 PM the day of pickup and it doesn't state that exactly in the CCRs, owners cannot try and enforce.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Mike

I am not a lawyer, but I tell you from what you described, the person is running a business out of his garage in broad daylight, so to speak.

If it were me, and only speaking for myself, if the association has a habit of selective enforcement, I would take action against the association, not the homeowner (keeps you out of a neighbor-to-neighbor dispute. I would first ask for a meeting with the Board and state my case. If you have other neighbors in agreement, bring them to meeting or bring letters of support from them. If it goes no where, make a date with Judge Judy.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeR on 01/09/2014 12:50 PM

Below is the rule for business Use Restrictions in our HOA CC&R's. It was my understanding that if you could see it, hear it or smell it, it would not be allowed. Can anyone give me some good feed back about this?


Just a thought, if your neighbor begins to sell the items with the garage door closed it would pass the see it test. These items don't make noise or smell. If there is increased traffic, you could have something there.

Would it be acceptable to you if the neighbor kept the garage door closed when he is showing the items. Sounds like he could use some patience from all of the neighbors. And maybe its not a long-term endeavor. I say show some tolerance here but ask that he keep the garage door closed and quiz him as to how long he plans to be engaged in that business.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 01/10/2014 3:34 PM

If it were me, and only speaking for myself, if the association has a habit of selective enforcement, I would take action against the association, not the homeowner (keeps you out of a neighbor-to-neighbor dispute.

So if I can sue the offender (if I want to) or the association can sue the offender (if it wants to), then I can sue the association to force them to sue the offender? I think it would be hard to sell the idea to a judge that you can force the association to perform a discretionary act that you can perform all by yourself without the association's involvement.

Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 01/10/2014 3:34 PM

I would first ask for a meeting with the Board and state my case. If you have other neighbors in agreement, bring them to meeting or bring letters of support from them. If it goes no where, make a date with Judge Judy.

Excellent suggestion.
JoK2 (California)
Posts: 198
Posted:
It's clear that you can see the business activity and a yard sale does not go on for a year. If you don't feel that you got your definitive answer here, then you should seek the advice of an attorney. It will be your only recourse anyway if the board ignores your formal complaint.

No one wants to be the bad guy in this situation, and if your president can't be that person you have a serious conflict of interest don't you? Emotions have to be out of the picture and if that' not possible, get the votes needed to remove him from the board.

And remember, it's not what you say, but how you say it!
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
MikeR, as suggested by Richard, put your complaint in writing and request that it be on the agenda of your next Board meeting. It sounds as if you've only verbally approached the president. Send your request to the Board by registered mail and copy your property manager. Photos of the appliances, etc. in the garage might be good too.

In other words, you want the Board to deal with this and actually make a decision that's recorded in the meeting minutes. As others have pointed out, be polite in your letter.

(I do sympathize with the man.)
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Some communities don't allow garage, tag, or yard sales (or similar sales by any other term) either. Check your own CCRs, Declaration, or rules and regulations to be sure.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeR on 01/10/2014 3:11 PM
Glen,

Our officers and the board are the same people, so there is no one to go to.


You only have one Board member, the president? I'm talking about the other member's of the Board, the president is only one person, one vote. If they decline then you either need to live with it or rally your neighbors and replace the Board with persons willing to follow the CC&R's. Or still liking the complain to the city and let them do the heavy lifting, bet he's not collecting or paying sales tax on his merchandise, has a vendors license etc.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
So what I'm getting from this is that you all agree that the language in our NO BUSINESS USES rule is clear when it says "if you can see it"? I do like the suggestion that he keep his garage doors closed.

We have three officers an they all defer to the President. He makes all the decisions.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
the covenant is crystal clear

there is a violation of your contract (the CCRs)

I suggest that if you feel strongly you take legal action against the violator or elect new administrators (BOD)

stop 'buffering' yourself with other people (the BOD)

why do you not simply 'take action' against something which offends you ?
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 01/12/2014 9:42 AM

why do you not simply 'take action' against something which offends you ?

I agree with this but instead of a lawsuit against your neighbor try the direct approach first. Have a tactful conversation with your neighbor and as I said before ask that he keep his garage door closed and quiz him about how long he plans on doing this. Maybe it's just temporary until his "hard times" have improved. I am a strong, strong advocate of compromise and communication between the parties involved.

I hate it when a couple of board members come to your door to have a "talk" because a neighbor has complained about something. I much prefer the direct neighbor to neighbor approach and let's see if we can work this out. It's not always necessary to involve the board.
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
I have taken action and I have been told by the BOD that they are going to allow him to continue this practice. Final reason is because the last line in our rule says they can.

Below is from the email I recieved from the President. I was under the belief that our CC&R's where over and above the cities rules. I don't even know what the city's laws are. It's hard to believe that its leagle to have an ongoing garage sale in any neighborhood let a lone a HOA community.

• Article IX, Section 13 allows for a “home occupation” as that term is defined by Cottonwood Heights City ordinance and in the event of a dispute whether the use of a dwelling is proper or not, makes the decision of the Board of Directors “final, conclusive and binding.”
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
No your rules are NOT above your local, city, county, state, or federal laws. They can be more restrictive than your local laws but they can not supercede them.

Former HOA President
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
What I'm saying is that The rules in the CC&R's can take the city rules a step futher than the city laws. Of course he has to live by the city rules first. But he also has to follow the HOA rules.

Example in this case they say that he has a business lisence to sell and the city gave him the lisence so that makes it OK. But our rules state that he can't do business in view of the neighborhood.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/12/2014 11:11 AM

They can be more restrictive than your local laws but they can not supersede them.

Some would argue that if the restriction/rule is more restrictive that it is superseding local codes.

Example: City code says fence can be up to 6 feet high. HOA says there can be no fences.

Hence the HOA rule appears to be superseding the city code which allows fences.
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
I'm on here because I want you guys to read the situation and our rule and tell me if the rule is clear about not being able to sell exercise equipement and appliances from and open garage. This has been going on for a year or two. I say if you can see this business activeity then you are breaking the rule.

Does anyone disagree with that?
JoK2 (California)
Posts: 198
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/12/2014 12:09 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/12/2014 11:11 AM

They can be more restrictive than your local laws but they can not supersede them.


Some would argue that if the restriction/rule is more restrictive that it is superseding local codes.

Example: City code says fence can be up to 6 feet high. HOA says there can be no fences.

Hence the HOA rule appears to be superseding the city code which allows fences.

Why would the city code even be in effect if you can't have any type of fence? Hence not an applicable state or local code to overrule.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Time for some tough love. Yes we all agree he is in violation, yes we all agree that you are right and they are wrong. But guess what it's still your battle to fight, I'm not flying to Utah to fight your battle and I suspect no one else is either. You have been given advice on how to handle it and you have excuses why it won't work. You've gone from the president and MC to now the whole Board allowing it. So as I and others have stated before, here are your options:

01. Recall the Board and replace them with homeowners willing to follow the CC&R's

02. Print out this thread where we all say the BOD is in the wrong and show it to them to prove the internet agrees with you.

03. Contact the city and let them do the dirty work.

04. Sue him in court to shut down the "business" and hopefully recover your legal fees.

05. Ignore it.

06. Sell and move away.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JoK2 (California)
Posts: 198
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeR on 01/12/2014 1:00 PM
I'm on here because I want you guys to read the situation and our rule and tell me if the rule is clear about not being able to sell exercise equipement and appliances from and open garage. This has been going on for a year or two. I say if you can see this business activeity then you are breaking the rule.

Does anyone disagree with that?

IMHO- If you can see it, then it is against this section, and as well, whatever section say's you can't have appliances in your front yard, driveway etc. I like Banks suggestion, if your biggest complaint is the fact that you can SEE the appliances all day long, then it makes sense to ask him to keep the door closed. That's a good compromise for dealing with this situation in today's economy. The important question is to ask a time frame, and really, the less it's seen, the less it matters at the end of the day.

Here is a valuable link that was shared on this site, and it was here that I found the order of precedence for my state.
http://www.hoa-usa.com/default.aspx

You mentioned officers and a president, those officers can be board members and I doubt you can have only one board member, (unless a developer??). So perhaps now you can reach out to them again with the solution of a compromise. I bet they would be welcome to hearing it, even if you suggested it via email to open the discussion.

MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
Thank you Jok I think you are saying what many have said. I like the Idea to ask him to close the garage door.

Glen, the reason I am having this concern is because my house is on the market and people come to view my house have to drive right past this house to get to mine. It would be nice if this part of the neighborhood didn't look like a flea market while i'm selling. Thats why we have a HOA.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
no no no ........ you have an HOA to maintain the engineered storm water retention utilities ~ all else was merely a 'sales pitch' by the developer

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