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Started by CaroleS • 21 replies • 1552 views

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CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97
Posted:
Are their any folks in this group that thrive on analyzing and pulling apart these documents? Would you be willing to correspond with me offline? I am not looking to get beaten up - I'm looking for the 6th set of eyes to look at this stuff

Thanks in advance
CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97
Posted:
Thank you I sent you two emails please respond that you received them
MissyP (Alabama)
Posts: 63
Posted:
Be careful with Richard's advice... He owns a management company. They don't have to obey the bylaws or CC&R's. They have their own rules. The board tells them what to do. Understand your HOA's relationship with a management company before you assume the advice is accurate and applicable...
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
What rules do you "think" I have?
MissyP (Alabama)
Posts: 63
Posted:
You have your OWN rules and are not bound by the HOA's if you are NOT a member of the HOA. A Management company is a THIRD PAID party. It is paid to do what the board/HOA tells it to do. If that is to apply it's rules/regulations, so be it. However, the management company itself is NOT bound by the rules in it's operations. Know the relationship between a management company and the HOA. It's not always to follow and enforce the rules of the HOA unless contractually written.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MissyP on 01/09/2014 9:11 AM
You have your OWN rules and are not bound by the HOA's if you are NOT a member of the HOA. A Management company is a THIRD PAID party. It is paid to do what the board/HOA tells it to do. If that is to apply it's rules/regulations, so be it. However, the management company itself is NOT bound by the rules in it's operations. Know the relationship between a management company and the HOA. It's not always to follow and enforce the rules of the HOA unless contractually written.

My "rules" are ethics and morals.

It is not to do what the board/HOA tells it to do, if it is illegal or against the law. It is to apply the rules and regulation as they are written, with the direction of the Board.

"It's not always to follow and enforce the rules of the HOA unless contractually written"? You need to think things through before you write. Flotation devices might be getting in the way, you think?
MissyP (Alabama)
Posts: 63
Posted:
As do you sir... You pretty much taken the words out of my mouth. Your management company would NEVER be hired by me. It seems your Management company doesn't understand it's role enough that there would be a problem in that. HOA's if they did ask you to do something "illegal" means that you as a management company could cancel that contract doesn't it? That should be the terms in your contract unless the money signs are in the way.

The HOA board represents ALL the members of the HOA. They are to act on the behalf of the members on the daily activities of the HOA needs on their behalf so they don't have to. The HOA hires the Management company to assist in that. It may be paying the bills. It may be gathering bids for contractors or making sure the proper paperwork is filed for the HOA to exist to pay taxes. All above this, is the contract between the two. Which is to contain the TERMS of CONTRACT of what the responsibilities are. Some HOA's may prefer to handle violations rule enforcement themselves. Others may pay the Management company extra to send out violation letters. Either way, it has to be defined in the contract. A management company can't just apply the HOA's rules if they are not under contract to do so. That's just bullying and not quite legal...
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MissyP on 01/09/2014 9:50 AM
As do you sir... You pretty much taken the words out of my mouth. Your management company would NEVER be hired by me. It seems your Management company doesn't understand it's role enough that there would be a problem in that. HOA's if they did ask you to do something "illegal" means that you as a management company could cancel that contract doesn't it? That should be the terms in your contract unless the money signs are in the way.

The HOA board represents ALL the members of the HOA. They are to act on the behalf of the members on the daily activities of the HOA needs on their behalf so they don't have to. The HOA hires the Management company to assist in that. It may be paying the bills. It may be gathering bids for contractors or making sure the proper paperwork is filed for the HOA to exist to pay taxes. All above this, is the contract between the two. Which is to contain the TERMS of CONTRACT of what the responsibilities are. Some HOA's may prefer to handle violations rule enforcement themselves. Others may pay the Management company extra to send out violation letters. Either way, it has to be defined in the contract. A management company can't just apply the HOA's rules if they are not under contract to do so. That's just bullying and not quite legal...

In a idea world "The HOA Board represents ALL the members of the HOA". But we all know that is not true, otherwise this site would not exist.

I have and will fire associations if things are asked to be or have been done "illegally". It's not about money, its about ethics, it's about the members the Board is supposed to represent. The reality is, unfortunately, most Board I have worked with do absolutely nothing for their community, it's name only. They stand behind the management company for protection when violations have to be doled out.

Make no mistake though, my management contract is very exhaustive and covers everything that myself and others could think of.

Besides, if you support a yo-yo like Jon, well, maybe you would be better off with a different management company.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Got to go, hit my 1100 mark here and won my new set of tires. Bye Bye
MissyP (Alabama)
Posts: 63
Posted:
How do you assume that HOA's board doesn't represent all the owners. No matter if the board does or does not do what someone wants them to do is irrelevant. The way a HOA works is that the board represents ALL. That is why it is important for this site to exist. It is to educate BOTH board members and HOA members what the board really means and how to make that happen. It defames and devalues a HOA to say that "HOA's board's don't represent the HOA". That is clearly something a management company would say to the HOA to keep them employed.

I give my advice here in order to allow people to see BOTH sides of the HOA operations. That is to provide assistance to board members who don't know how to handle a situation to a member not understanding the board decision. EDUCATION is key here. I hope that comes through with Tim's posts and other regulars who promote that with their posts.

We don't need someone who owns their own management company and telling HOA members they are powerless to them. That because your board made a bad decision or no decision at all, that they have no avenues to pursue. HOA's rules allow many avenues to pursue outside of court and complaining to the Management company. Just ask...and read your documents!!!
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MissyP on 01/09/2014 10:32 AM
How do you assume that HOA's board doesn't represent all the owners. No matter if the board does or does not do what someone wants them to do is irrelevant. The way a HOA works is that the board represents ALL. That is why it is important for this site to exist. It is to educate BOTH board members and HOA members what the board really means and how to make that happen. It defames and devalues a HOA to say that "HOA's board's don't represent the HOA". That is clearly something a management company would say to the HOA to keep them employed.

I give my advice here in order to allow people to see BOTH sides of the HOA operations. That is to provide assistance to board members who don't know how to handle a situation to a member not understanding the board decision. EDUCATION is key here. I hope that comes through with Tim's posts and other regulars who promote that with their posts.

We don't need someone who owns their own management company and telling HOA members they are powerless to them. That because your board made a bad decision or no decision at all, that they have no avenues to pursue. HOA's rules allow many avenues to pursue outside of court and complaining to the Management company. Just ask...and read your documents!!!

When have i EVER said that HOA members are powerless to management companies. When have I EVER said a HOA member has no avenue to pursue? So you are lumping all management companies into the same pot?

How do I assume that HOA boards don't represent all the owners? Unfortunately, from personal experience.

HOA rules allow many avenue to pursue outside of court. Please name a few and then see if those were applied or used in a recent post.

You constantly say that suing your HOA is the same as suing yourself and don't condone such activity. What about an HOA suing an owner over a political campaign sign and costing the homeowners hundreds of thousands of dollars, to make a point!
MissyP (Alabama)
Posts: 63
Posted:
People don't use those options obviously if they are going to court or don't read their documents. Each HOA has a different method. I can only state that HOA's are MAJORITY ruled. It is to be managed by the owners for the owners. Which means if a MAJORITY of owners get together they can not only get rid of a board/board member they can also REWRITE the rules! If you don't like a rule, then get a group of member together and follow the requirements of changing your documents. Most documents only require 51% to 100% majority vote of the members to change. Which quite frankly, if the HOA is doing something so terribly wrong such as charging for free service, then a majority of the owners should have banned together NOT just 1 member.

HOA's work best in majority. Can't help that there is apathy in your HOA. That is part of the battle you have to fight instead of doing it in a courthouse effecting ALL anyways. If I hear someone has a problem with the HOA and I agree, then I would then cast my voting powers in their direction. It's people who don't want to do the legwork within their HOA, that makes the HOA less effective in operating correctly.

A HOA bringing a lawsuit against a member, is the same issue with members suing the HOA. It is a lack of education and people who think lawsuits are the options. HOA's are NOT run by professionals but regular people who don't know the consequences of lawsuits and just assume that is the way to go.

My suggestion is to simply come here and get educated by asking the questions on your rules. We are NOT lawyers but we are experienced and can help guide you where to look or understand.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Missy,

Although you urge caution at using Richard's advice, I noticed that you don't step up to the plate and offer your own time and energy to help review Carole's documents. I haven't offered my time and energy either, but I'm also not stepping into the issue and offering my opinion on who's advice Carole should take. I believe that Carole is intelligent enough to figure that out on her own.

Personally, I haven't seen any advice from Richard that I disagree with. Even if I did, I wouldn't tell someone to be cautious of someone's advice based on what business they own, where they are located or what their profession happens to be.
When you posted "For us, the President e-mails a draft agenda to the Board a few days before the meeting. " it sounds like this is what you are doing. I hope I am wrong.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/09/2014 11:27 AM

When you posted "For us, the President e-mails a draft agenda to the Board a few days before the meeting. " it sounds like this is what you are doing. I hope I am wrong.

That was wrong.

It should have said:

When you posted "Be careful with Richard's advice... He owns a management company. " it sounds like this is what you are doing. I hope I am wrong.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MissyP on 01/09/2014 11:02 AM
People don't use those options obviously if they are going to court or don't read their documents. Each HOA has a different method. I can only state that HOA's are MAJORITY ruled. It is to be managed by the owners for the owners. Which means if a MAJORITY of owners get together they can not only get rid of a board/board member they can also REWRITE the rules! If you don't like a rule, then get a group of member together and follow the requirements of changing your documents. Most documents only require 51% to 100% majority vote of the members to change. Which quite frankly, if the HOA is doing something so terribly wrong such as charging for free service, then a majority of the owners should have banned together NOT just 1 member.

HOA's work best in majority. Can't help that there is apathy in your HOA. That is part of the battle you have to fight instead of doing it in a courthouse effecting ALL anyways. If I hear someone has a problem with the HOA and I agree, then I would then cast my voting powers in their direction. It's people who don't want to do the legwork within their HOA, that makes the HOA less effective in operating correctly.

A HOA bringing a lawsuit against a member, is the same issue with members suing the HOA. It is a lack of education and people who think lawsuits are the options. HOA's are NOT run by professionals but regular people who don't know the consequences of lawsuits and just assume that is the way to go.

My suggestion is to simply come here and get educated by asking the questions on your rules. We are NOT lawyers but we are experienced and can help guide you where to look or understand.

Melissa,

Unfortunately, I have only limited experience having only with about 200 associations, but I wish I could agree that HOA's are MAJORITY ruled, but I can't. I have had association actually managed by renters who lived next door in apartments, because the Bylaws and CCRs stated you didn't need to be an owner or live on the property.

My community hadn't had opened a ballot in 8 years because they couldn't reach quorum. Cronies got appointed should never had any desire to try and make quorum, just business as usual. I could have sued, and the monies Carole may have gotten would have only been a small down payment on the settlement I could have won, and only have to spend 1/317 of the money won.

But I chose to get support, re-write the Bylaws, get rid of quorum, and have fair elections. That was me. I can't tell someone else to do because I don't know their circumstances, but only say exhaust all avenues before going in front of a judge. Sometimes that is the only way, because of misguided management companies and misguided and unethical attorneys.

Many HOA's are "professionally managed". Good HOA's work as a team, and if professional managed, work for the betterment of all.

Once I get to 1200 posts I will get the free alignment with the free tires I just got.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Professional management isn't the subject here. But "Missy" often goes off on unrelated tangents so that, it seems to me, she may insert her canned remarks that she must have on a list to cut and paste onto her posts.

This time it's her predigested rant about management companies even though I don't recall she's lived in an HOA that has one.

In any event, many PMs do know a lot about Articles and bylaws and, based on past posts, Richard seems to be one of them. PMs who are members of their professional organizations also are bound by a code of ethics. I also recall that Richard's a member of an HOA and (maybe) has served/is serving on its Board.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Carol

You are right. I am a member of CAI and am certified as an CMCA, AMS and shortly PCAM, and yes we are bound by a code of ethics, probably higher than what a Board may sign after being elected. My work experience in other areas is my greatest strength.

I have written, from scratch, complete sets of Bylaws, CCRs, Rules and Regulations, and Election Rules and have had them authenticated by an attorney and worked to get them passed and implemented, outside of my own HOA.

I have served on my Board as a member at large and its President, having been involved since getting it cleaned up. Currently, I chair the finance committee which oversees the finances, reserves and contracts within the community, with my wife as the Board president.

I have worked for two management companies and recently started my own company with the goal of delivering a service equaled by none with serving the entire community and its members needs as my number one priority.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
the HOA is/was incorporated to remove personal liability from its members

after incorporation it MUST comply with state corporate law

IMO: all state law defines the director's 'fiduciary duty' as towards the corporation

the only thing the 'majority' does is elect the directors (trustees in some states)

the directors are bound by the articles of incorporation and the bylaws

these must not be contrary to the CCRs

since there generally is too much 'schlock' paperwork for them they defer to the easy way out -> a management company WHICH ANSWERS ONLY TO THE BOD (the BOD answers to the corporate members) ~ remember: no corporation = no BOD

let the money flow

CAVEAT EMPTOR
ThomasD2 (California)
Posts: 208
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaroleS on 01/08/2014 10:58 AM
Are their any folks in this group that thrive on analyzing and pulling apart these documents? Would you be willing to correspond with me offline? I am not looking to get beaten up - I'm looking for the 6th set of eyes to look at this stuff


You could hire an attorney as a consultant to examine the documents.
And if the price point scares you, you could also pay a property manager as a consulant to look at the documemts.
JoK2 (California)
Posts: 198
Posted:
Give yourself some credit that you can learn to understand them and you will do just that. They intimidated me at first, but they don't any longer.

Having been in a similar situation not long ago, I had asked that we set up a meeting with the mgmt. company to "explain" them all to me. I wanted to go over every one of the sections. But when it became obvious that he gave us advice against the documents, I had to figure it all out for myself, (you know that buggy thing called, fiduciary responsibility).

So I took some of the questions asked on this forum and went about finding the answers in our documents, as if they pertained to us specifically. I started to understand the documents and what it was they did say.

The most helpful thing I learned was the order of precedence of the documents. Some of the questions I looked up had an article or section that was relevant in all four governing documents! Good Grief! At first it confused me, but not after discovering the section that spells out the order of them.

From there it all started to fall into place. Now every statement or decision that comes from the board and even on the agenda handed out at meetings, has the exact document, article and section that pertains to that item or issue.

When a fellow board member asked me a question, I passed this advice along for her to find her own answer and she also now has a clear understanding of them.

Hope this helps you too,

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