What would you do?????

I've heard plenty of comments - so let's turn the tables
Here are the facts - tell me what you would do or what additional questions you would ask

Florida HOAs are governed by a statute that has little meat to it. They are also governed by the non-profit corporate law

This HOA has little participation from residents and is governed with an iron hand -

During the summer of 2012 the board began looking to save money on security. There were no bids or presentations from various services available in the area.

On November 7, 2012 the Board of the HOA voted 6-0 to change to a company that would charge 60% less than the current company. The residents would no longer have fire and police coverage, though told the products were the same they were in fact not.

On November 8, 2012 the first contract draft from the new company was prepared. The draft reflected a 60% decrease in costs effective July, 2014. From January 2013 to June 2014 there would be no cost.

On November 19, 2012 the board passed the 2013 budget which did not reflect the 60% decrease in security costs.

On January 9, 2013 the president of the HOA signed the new contract that reflected the 60% decrease in security costs

On January 28, 2013 the attorney for one of the sub associations sent a letter to the master board telling them that assessing on an expired contract was against Florida statute (law) and assessing for a free service was against the docs.

In July 2013, after 6 months of trying to get the board to amend the budget a resident filed suit in small claims court.

In July 2013 the board president called the resident - saying that the attorney for the HOA said to give the problem to the E&O insurance company. The insurance company told the president to call and settle. The president called the resident to settle. At that point the HOA was assessing for services that were being provided for free. The resident asked for the budget to be amended. The president refused.

In August the E&O hired their local counsel. There was pre-suit mediation. Nothing changed.

In October the E&O attorney called the resident to settle. The resident said yes, amend the remaining budget.

In October the E&O attorney filed a hearing for notice of dismissal. The judge, heard both sides and the motion was denied.

November 4 & 5 there was a trial. The entire paper trail was acknowledged by the president and treasurer and put in to evidence.

December, 2013 the judge issued a final judgment in favor of the plaintiff

December, 2013 the Defendant asked for a new trial.

December, 2013 the motion for a new trial was denied.

So please - a little civility there are a lot of folks who have HOA experiences, albeit different - what would you do specifically?

CaroleS - I'm sorry that I'm not answering the question you asked, but I'm hung up on this issue of a private company providing "fire and police coverage". Could you expand on that a bit. I'm not challenging your participation in the suit, etc just wondering about this part of the contract.

If I have the facts straight. The issue came about as the newly contracted security company was willing to wave the yearly fee of $60K (for 1000 homes) for two years and the BOD did not reflect this savings in a dues reduction. If my figures are right, the savings is $60 per year ($1.00 per week), per home.

Melissa raised the question of what happens in two years? Will it require an assessment/dues increase that the owners have to vote on? If so what do you assume the odds are they will pass it?

The BOD was foolish in not addressing this which I believe they could have easily done without reducing dues. Something along the lines of a savings has come our way for several years which means we should allow us to keep dues at there present level for the next few years. Great news.

The question is did Carole, even while right, open a Pandora's Box for little more then $1.00 per home per week? You be the judge.

Some never understand how they won every battle they fought but they still lost the war.

Not exactly - the old contract expired on May 31 - the budget reflected an entire year - johnc46 the board had every opportunity to do what you said but chose not to. On a $240 monthly fee security represented $14. -

Ellie

The key date is November 7, 2012 when the Board voted to go with the new company and I would have to assume knew what the price was. The January 2013 date is secondary as all they were doing is signing a contract that had already been approved. There was time to amend the budget. Again, the Board had every opportunity afterwards to amended and chose not to. Someone called them on it, and the court gave the victory to the homeowner. Looking at court cases in the last couple of years are, more and more, going against the HOA.

My question is besides the Board, where is either the General Manager or the management of this complex. These people were dealing with a $3M annual budget. Sounds like they just ignored the inquiries and rolled the dice. HOA's tend to do that. Someone didn't know how to communicate very well.

Couple of options that could have been done. 1) put the money into reserves or an emergency fund, 2) use the savings for a reserve project versus pilling from reserves, 3) have a one-time deduction from a monthly assessment, once the savings have ultimately realized.

Reducing the monthly assessments and then in two years re-raising, not a good idea. Easy to give back, harder to ask for the money back.

Surprised this happened, community that size should be a well-grease mean machine.

Since most HOAs will have regular Board turnover, the budget process must be as historically accurate as possible so future Boards can better plan. The view of "it was only a few dollars per household so why give it back?" does not make sense to me. Our National Debt is the result of the same attitude. The old saying "a little here and a little there and pretty soon..." comes to mind.

I commend the Board for looking for cost savings for their membership, but once that is realized it must be passed on IMO. No doubt at a later date when they ask for the increase they will meet resistance. Part of that resistance can be handled via better communication. Part of it will be there no matter what and that is life, just accept it.

Still believe the OP did the right thing and agree with Richard's view that there is a reason in recent years more and more court decisions are not coming down on the side of the HOAs. Finally the courts are performing a necessary role in helping un-trench an attitude too often on display in HOA communities, an attitude that runs afoul of what America is all about IMO.

If as many have stated on this site that HOAs are not about protecting our values, then I see very little need for them. The trade-off of lost freedom is just not worth it. When we purchase into an HOA community there are governing documents and statutes that must be adhered to, even when Board members feel it makes more sense not to because of the wisdom they have gleaned after decades of serving. These are contracts that the Board must honor. The problems I have witnessed in the HOA communities where I have lived are always the result of arrogance on the Board's part that they know better and hence will not follow exactly what everyone agreed to, they will be "flexible" on the rules they determine need flexibility. What we are seeing is the courts saying to Boards these documents are in fact the law and are probably wiser than you.

For everyone here who says replace Board members, I'll offer back that Board should just go through the process of changing the HOA's documents so the changes they feel are warranted can be accomplished. We know this does not happen too often because it is a time consuming, and difficult process. Yet these same folks who do not want to take this approach because of the difficulty created by lack of participation tell the rest of us to change the Board, which is just as difficult. Finally the courts are weighing in and from my perspective this is great for us, and I mean all of us by 'us'.

Quote: On January 28, 2013 the attorney for one of the sub associations sent a letter to the master board telling them that assessing on an expired contract was against Florida statute (law) and assessing for a free service was against the docs.

Don't forget that the HOA President was violating Florida civil law and association docs. The HOA can make up whatever rules and punishment they wish to but if it violates the law and/or governing documents then someone needs to step up and call attention to that.

The Association Attorney told the President this and the HOA's insurance attorney told the President to settle. He refused. I can forgive ignorance of the law because they can be complicated and open to interpretation but when 2 attorneys are telling the President something and its ignored then the President is responsible for the consequences to the HOA.

We tell homeowners that come unto this site if they don't like the rules they are asked to follow, then maybe they made a poor choice and should sell and move. That goes for Board members also. There are laws and there are consequences to one's action. According to the OP, the president was told by attorneys they were operating outside the statues. The insurance company told him to settle this thing. Apparently, he refused or the Board refused, who knows. Maybe he alone should be responsible and maybe it would teach this individual a lesson.

I don't care for the laws that govern my management of HOA's in California, but until I or someone else gets them changed I have to do my best to comply. Do I bend the corners once in a while, yes, but if ever challenged, I can win every day and twice on Sunday.

Not sure who this Missy is, but they have no idea what a budget is. Think they need to go back and play poker with the kittys.

The whole issue could have been resolved very easily IF someone communicated. Again, I go back to "where was management" in this whole mess?

Carole,

What was the decision of the small claims court? Did they order that only you, one owner, are to be refunded the extra amount of the assessment? Or did the judge order the board to refund all owners, or change the budget for the HOA?

Well, since it is only a judgment for you, it is hard to say that you have lost the war. Only one owner! The strategy becomes clearer to force the board to do what is transparent and legal.

My BOD can increase dues 5% without owner approval. At $240 per month we could raise dues $12.00 per month. In my HOA not enough to cover the $14.00 per month so we would have to go to the membership for approval. How many think the membership will approve such?

That is really the bottom line of mine. Did someone cut their nose off to spite their face?

Me thinks they did.

Carol,

Small Claims probably does not allow for a class action, but if this had been filed as such everyone who signed on would have been given a judgment in their favor. Might help to explain that to others now and get the word out to the BOD and management company as well.

They just changed management companies to a national company first service residential.

that was thought about - decided one would do the trick for the moment.

First at least argue fairly and spell my name correctly!

Do what you choose - I will continue to answer
Questions that I am asked . Why do you have
The right to shut down this conversation?

Carol(E)

I offered a deal. We will see where it goes.

I would not have gone to small claims court. I would have tried viewing the financial records to see where the money is going. As a member, you have that right. Did you consider this? Did you ask the board where the money was going?

You can inspect the financial records as your next step, especially if you have concerns of a secret pet project. I think the board will take you seriously.

Quite frankly I don't like the idea of being part of a lawsuit because one of my fellow members felt the need to. Especially when there are other options. If a large group has an issue in a HOA, that group can get together and make a change in the rules or the board. A single member only represent themselves and put the entire membership part of their lawsuit.

It's always funny when someone who has sued their HOA does NOT get the reaction from the other members they want. Yeah, you may be "fighting" for me, but your also costing me money fighting your lawsuit. Sorry I can't be as supportive and happy for you on that. I'd rather been part of the solution of making changes than having it pressed upon me by a judge. Especially since now I most likely have to pay higher dues, a special assessment, or have to worry about the HOA insurance going away...

Sorry but I never see the "HOA lawsuit" victory in a court as a real "Victory". It is your victory. Enjoy paying the extra money as well as your not exempt from paying the special assessments or the higher dues to cover your lawsuit costs on the HOA. Mmm... Victory? I think not...

Quite frankly there is much about this whole story that concerns me.

The OP Carole posts that she WON in a sui she brought agains her own HOA.

Now usually when you WIN there is some concrete reward or benefit. Unless for you some moral victory is enough.

What did this cost the HOA. At first the OP claims not a dime. Then the $2,500 deductible. The possibiliy of higher insurance premiums? Or perhaps the loss of heir insurance coverage? Is that a win for the other owners? I think not.

So in the end what was the cost of he lawsuit, the numbers we already should know? Legal fees were how much?

The affects on the propery's insurance we might need to wait and see.

Then the OP makes the determination she is a "pioneer". In most cases that word would be used for posiive behavior. Not selfserving actions that held no regard for the affect on others.

Then the OP plans to trumpet the news around the property. Signals to me this is now personal not anything o do with what's good for the property.

Then we learn the court's ruling applies to just the OP. Again, all this effort and cost o settle the issue wih one uni owner.

And then we learn the court awarded "costs" plus "interest". Well in small claims court the OP's costs should have been minimal plus interest what is the number or amoun the OP was awarded. Perhaps we can then see for oursleves what his battle in the end was all over.

What did the court do in terms of his charge?
What did the court do to the Board President?
What did the court do to the Board members?
What has acually changed as a result of this action which benefits THE PROPERTY in a positive manner?

My guess the OP comes off as a right fighter. Someone who needs to have things done their way and are willing to fight to the end despite any damage to any third parties. Then when everyone does not join in chorus to offer our support she takes it personal as if no one has the right to disagree.

If you have the TRUE power of your own convictions the approval of others should no be required.

So you acted in a way that cost the HOA time, money and possibly more going forward. Your acions in no way benefited the other members of your community. Quite the contrary, it might have hurt them. But everyone is required to cheer.

Sounds to me like the OP has an agenda. That would not be serving the interests of the community.

Who really won????? The only winner I can find would be he lawyers paid to defend against this action.

And to those who blindly cheer any action against any HOA as some victory of your own without having the ability to see its true affects.
Well your limitations have spoken for themsleves. In one post you question the need for any HOAs and then you fight to hold a position on the Board you suggest should not exist. So what might be YOUR agenda?
Would I want you on our Board?

If you cheer any effort against any HOA and claim it as some victory perhaps you should take the time to determine what if anything was actually accomplished. Like in this case.

WHAT AMOUNT OF MONEY WAS AWARED BY THE COURT TO THE OP??????

PLEASE FILL IN THE AMOUNT __________________.

AND FOR SOME THAT'S A VICTORY WORTH CELEBRATING????????

RIGHT...................................

OK, so 2 attorneys tell the President to knock it off and we question Carole? I have a question for you, at what dollar amount is it OK to take legal action? Is there some magical number that meets all of your approvals that would garner your blessing to proceed with legal action?

Jon forgot or just ignored Part I of his post, "New Year’s Resolutions Part I – The Director".

I am glad you don't live in my community or sit on my Board because you and I would differently see each other in court.

Jon stood up for my board, manager and attorney when they stole over $200K from us, because someone else had an agenda. HOA Board can do no wrong in his eyes, they are just volunteers.

I believe Jon is well informed, but prefer to operate in secret, behind closed doors. I believe he is a mean person. Before you ask owners to follow a set of rules, you had better be willing to follow your own rules.

The OP lives in a complex with over 1000 homes. How easy do you think it would be to get over 600 proxies to get a special meeting together. Board knows this going in. If they don't the management companies and the attorney sure do. For the size of her community, the award was pocket change.

I am not a believer in litigation, because i detest attorneys, but the person brought the issue up to the Board and I assume the management company on numerous occasions, they tried to mediate, the attorneys and insurance company told them to settle and they refused. Short of getting 611 proxies for the special meeting or recall, I might have done the same.

And Frank you have shown me you are a zealot. Both when it comes to HOAs or any matter in your life.

Never having done the job you know best. Having had a bad taste in your mouth from owning in other HOAs you brought into another.

Having failed to gain a seat on the Board you blamed the developers. Becuase in your world YOU the owner of one unit should have as much say as the people who are funding the entire project.

Yes, I know about your clean driving record. That makes you qualified.

And Yes we know about how long you have been married probably the happiest couple in the entire state of Kansas no doubt.

And we know about how you worked as a manager and all you ever needed to know was provided you through your job.

And we know how you feel about potential Board members being made to recite the 10 Commandments to prove to YOU they might be worthy to serve.

Yes Frank you are the smartest man in any room. I know this because you say so.

And of course you have the ability and right to speak about properties about which YOU know nothing. And because they don't do it Frank's way they must be wrong. That's what zealots do. That's how zealots operate.

To be honest Frank I don't care what you do out there in Kansas. What I do care about is when you come to a site like this and make posts as if you know something. When you know very little.

And in life Frank smart people don't have the need to prove it every day like you do. Smart people don't live in fear that others behave differently than they do. Hence my lack of concern for anything you might do.

I have nothing to prove to you Frank. As I have stated before you come across as a real PUTZ. I feel sorry for those serving on the Board on your property and the thought of you spreading all that you think you know makes me pity them.

But I am sure in your life, the life of a zealot, you are not allowed to stray from the beliefs you were provided. There can be ONLY one way in Frank's world. Thankfully Frank, I and many others, don't have to live in your closed off world.

Yes Frank you ARE the smartest man in he room only when you are the only man in that room. But the clean driver's license now that's impressive....

Jon,

Where was I when they stealing from us?

Once denied access to the financials from both the management company and the association's attorney, I set about gather support from 75% of our homeowners.

I then set about re-writing the Bylaws to have fair elections in our association.

Got the management company and attorney fired and replaced. Taking one of them to court for embezzlement.

Yes, I did spend two stints in the hospital for this, but it was worth it. We now have transparency. But, if I ever took my association to court, which I thought about, Carole's settlement would only have been a small down payment.

You believe that closed and secret meetings are the way to run a association and despise anyone that doesn't get involved in their association. I don't look for people to show up at our open and properly noticed meeting, I make sure I have their support, if and when, it may be needed. A homeowner who pays there assessments as agreed upon and follows the rules is JUST as important as someone who volunteers to serve on a board or committee.

I worked at a top level for the largest mortgage company in the country and know why my house was/is underwater and it has nothing to do with homeowners associations. Actually Wall Street, which I think is still in New York, had a small role in the grand scheme of things.