I sued my master board and WON!!! Very long post

Started by CaroleS • 93 replies • 16470 views

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CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

It took almost a year but I won. The 2012 budget included monies for an item that was going to be received for free.
At the budget approval meeting that members were told they would get their money back.
It was asked to be put in the minutes nothing happened.
My husband suggested using small claims court to sue for my damages.
I tried for six months to get the Board President to fix the problem by amending the budget.
Not only does Florida statute not let you access members for services that you are not receiving but our documents do not allow you to be assessed for something that is free. The master board attorney would not take the case. It was sent to errors and omissions insurance. There is a complete paper trail that supports what the board did. Errors and insurance lawyer tried in October to get the claim dismissed. A judge declined. The trial was over two days. They hired a court reporter. Day two of the trial the judge interrupted me asking my questions to the president and asked if she could ask some questions.
She asked why a seasoned boardmember did not know if they could amend A budget.
She stopped and made the president look through all of the documents to find out if you could amend the budget. It was not pretty.
It took the judge six weeks to issue her opinion. It was in my favor.
She said the board cannot intentionally charge for something that they are going to get for free in order to create money to put in a reserve. It is my understanding that intentionally is a big word.
A motionl for a new trial was requested and denied.
They canal try and appeal but you can only appeal the law you can't appeal the facts. I have been told that no lawyer worth his salt her salt would take this case. What is more interesting is if there is a clause in the insurance policy that does not pay if something was done knowingly and against the law. Don't know the answer .
there are six communities within my master none of the boards will share this information with the residents.
So with some other residents I will be distributing a letter explaining what happened.
At the same time the master board is in violation of the Florida statute that deals with the duties of directors.
That includes ignoring the articles bylaws and documents.
Another resident is going to deal with that issue.

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 01/05/2014 5:47 AM
It took almost a year but I won. The 2012 budget included monies for an item that was going to be received for free.
At the budget approval meeting that members were told they would get their money back.
It was asked to be put in the minutes nothing happened.
My husband suggested using small claims court to sue for my damages.
I tried for six months to get the Board President to fix the problem by amending the budget.
Not only does Florida statute not let you access members for services that you are not receiving but our documents do not allow you to be assessed for something that is free. The master board attorney would not take the case. It was sent to errors and omissions insurance. There is a complete paper trail that supports what the board did. Errors and insurance lawyer tried in October to get the claim dismissed. A judge declined. The trial was over two days. They hired a court reporter. Day two of the trial the judge interrupted me asking my questions to the president and asked if she could ask some questions.
She asked why a seasoned boardmember did not know if they could amend A budget.
She stopped and made the president look through all of the documents to find out if you could amend the budget. It was not pretty.
It took the judge six weeks to issue her opinion. It was in my favor.
She said the board cannot intentionally charge for something that they are going to get for free in order to create money to put in a reserve. It is my understanding that intentionally is a big word.
A motionl for a new trial was requested and denied.
They canal try and appeal but you can only appeal the law you can't appeal the facts. I have been told that no lawyer worth his salt her salt would take this case. What is more interesting is if there is a clause in the insurance policy that does not pay if something was done knowingly and against the law. Don't know the answer .
there are six communities within my master none of the boards will share this information with the residents.
So with some other residents I will be distributing a letter explaining what happened.
At the same time the master board is in violation of the Florida statute that deals with the duties of directors.
That includes ignoring the articles bylaws and documents.
Another resident is going to deal with that issue.

I re-read your post as I am always interested in HOA members winning lawsuits against their HOA. I think I get it now. You won because the board cannot assess members for something they are getting for free. I am curious. What specifically were you being charged for that is free?

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

And my particular case it was monitoring services.
The new company gave the first 18 months for free.
They kept in the budget the cost for the previous company.
The paper trail shows that they specifically voted to change companies.

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

CaroleS, I can understand not including in a budget something that was going to be received for free, and the need to amend a Budget if an incorrect line item was included in error.

But then you wrote that the money received for that line item, was going to be put into the Reserve Fund Account. I assume there was also a separate line item, for money needed to fund Reserves.

Why was the amount budgeted for the Reserve Fund, just not increased by whatever the free amount was? By some chance is your Reserve Fund “way” over funded?

You also wrote “At the budget approval meeting that members were told they would get their money back”. So if the “free” line item amount was not deleted from the Budget, was the money collected, instead of being refunded, put into the Reserve Fund as planned?

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

At the end of the day, you and your HOA will have to pay thousands of dollars in legal fees because you have incompetent people running your HOA.

More proof you need to focus your energy on getting rid of those people instead of suing your HOA.

You win a lawsuit, you pay.
You loose a lawsuit, you pay.
You vote in competent people to run your HOA, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.

PS. If your HOA is getting advice from a lawyer, your forgetting a key fact....... your lawyer makes more money if there is conflict. The more conflict, the more money he makes. Take a lawyers advice with a grain of salt.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

I get the legal thing. - Our HOA is paying not one dime
It is being paid by the insurance company - I understand premiums going up -
If the insurance company does not pay then the board members will be personally liable.
I understand competent board members.
Living in a 55+ in Florida is a whole new adventure.
The suit is a means to an end. We will get rid of the board now.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

IF they had amended the budget to send it to reserves that would have
Been legally ok - I am 'told' they were looking
For extra money for a 'pet' project.
One third of the budget is reserves - there are
A lot of changes that have to happen.
As others know Florida hoas is the wild wild west

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

Our HOA is paying not one dime, It is being paid by the insurance company - I understand premiums going up.

Either rates will soar or the company will drop you completely, which is usually what happens. Since all insurance companies share this information, rates you will be quoted from other insurance companies will also be very high. There is no escape. Hence why I say....... you will "pay"

Quote:

If the insurance company does not pay then the board members will be personally liable.

Although its nice to think that would happen..... in reality...... its not likely. The board members will refuse. It will have to go back to court, more legal fees, and in the end they will likely not have to pay for many different reasons leaving the HOA with yet another legal bill that the members will "pay".

Quote:

The suit is a means to an end. We will get rid of the board now.

Sure.... now you must get rid of them. But all of this could have been prevented a long time ago..... Suing, winning, just to prove the board should be recalled or removed is not the best or economical plan.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

I appreciate your comments.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Carole,

If you do distribute a newsletter DO NOT embellish. DO NOT let emotions into the article. Make it simple and verifiable.

A Simple, "A member recently brought legal action against abc Association. Attached is a copy of the ruling."

NOTE: Be aware that sending a newsletter may get the ire of these Board members and they may be more willing to appeal the case than if the newsletter was never published. This will cost you additional time, energy and funds to fight the appeal.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

Thank you! I know to keep things very simple.
I have been told by three different HOA lawyers that there is nothing to appeal.
This judge was very careful in her wording.
The paper trail is very clear and concise.
Guess I am a pioneer - this is the first time in 12 years they have ever been challenged
But you know this thing with money. - I would take what needs to be taken not what you want to take

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Tomorrow I will drive down to my state capitol and kiss all of my legislators. I want to thank them for not following Florida's lead in micro-managing the HOA budgeting process.

Budgets are not science. They are based on reasonable guesses as to what things will cost during the next year and a guess as to how much money will be available to pay for it. Given the small scale of any HOA in comparison to the state or federal government budgets, the most reasonable approach is to let each association decide for itself how to budget its funds. The last thing most HOA's need is a legislature dictating what they may or may not spend funds for and a court system to enforce that.

I notice in this post that the OP has carefully avoided telling us just how much money each homeowner has been "saved" by her crusade for an accurate budget. She has also not disclosed how much association will pay for the deductible for their insurance claim. Somehow, I doubt that this fight was really worth it. Even the OP acknowledged that her lawsuit will cause future insurance premiums to go up.

While I often advocate use of the courts to redress grievances, I also advocate choosing wisely which battles to fight. I suspect that in this case the direct cost to the association and its members is far higher than any savings created by this lawsuit. While the OP may have won the battle, she has lost the war.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

The deductible is $2500 - the amount is $102,000 which is about 5% of the budget. You budget what you know. If you know and they did that the costs for security were going to drop 60% why budget the old amount. Florida statute doesn't let you assess when there is no charge for an item nor do our docs.

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

The topic of suing your HOA has been debated multiple times on this forum. Each situation is unique as each HOA and the laws that govern them are unique. Whether one agrees with Carole or not is not the topic. Carole was sharing information. You Florida folks should especially find the info helpful.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

Thank you -

FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276

Posted:

Congrats!

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

Thank you! For those of you with different opinions
This was thought out pretty carefully. I may not have
Explained it perfectly- but believe it or not it was/is the least expensive
And most powerful option. Living in a 55+
Florida community is an adventure

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Yeah......... I sued my own property and won!!!!!!!!

"But the HOA is not paying a dime"

Well $2,500 is NOT a dime after all.

And the insurance premiums or geting your community dropped small price to pay for such a BIG victory.

So if you budget $20,000 to operate the pool and it costs you LESS what happens to that extra money????? You go to court and sue the Board!

I have to wonder per unit what amount of money was in dispute??????

$1,000 $5,000 $1,000,000 or BILLIONS

And now the plan, WE are going to take over the property and use this logic to manage the Board.

My suggestion you better budget lots more money for your insurance costs.

Did the court make an award?? In what amount???

To every unit owner?????

So with your own money you will be paying yourself????

Makes sense to me. And you piad the legal fees. Yes that too makes lots of sense.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

There is so much anger and sarcasm in some
of these comments - I don't get it - very sad -
This was a well thought out plan for this situation.
I won't respond anymore - if you live in Florida and
Have specific questions about my situation I will try to answer
Them

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 01/05/2014 12:33 PM
There is so much anger and sarcasm in some
of these comments - I don't get it - very sad -
This was a well thought out plan for this situation.
I won't respond anymore - if you live in Florida and
Have specific questions about my situation I will try to answer
Them

CaroleS, no anger and no sarcasm here.

People are simply trying to get some answers from you. So naturally many here are skeptical that your plan was indeed well thought out or even worth it at all.

What I would like to know specifically is what is the dollar amount of this budget line item for monitoring services and what is the size of your HOA (# of properies).

Can you please answer that?

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Carole,

JonD1 is just a grumpy ole man. He hasn't posted on the forum for a long while so perhaps he's going thru HOATalk withdrawal. Or he's incredibly bored on this frigid winter day. Jon has strong opinions and his delivery can be curt and sarcastic. That's his personality.

We luv you anyway Jon. Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

OBTW Jon, your association must appreciate your volunteerism since they keep voting you in. You must be doing something right. So give yourself a pat on the back. From your other post, it doesn't sound like the members give you much credit.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

Certainly -

It is a $3m budget of 1060 homes - the biggest line items are
Debt Service
Property Management
Landscape
Cable TV
Security

Of the $339k budget in security it was knowingly over budgeted by $102,000.

I set a precedent with my final judgment - which cost me $130 to file. This was small claims court, there was no need for an attorney. in fact I had many conversations with the President, Not once did he say I was wrong. He just didn't want to amend the budget. Understand the vote to change was taken in November, the budget with the old amount was approved in November and the new contract was signed the first week in January.

There is a master board and 6 community hoa's - all separate non profit corporations with no legal relationship to each other. I told the president I was going to take two actions. One the money the second, which I haven't discussed is a huge violation of the the articles and by-laws - but I digress -

For 12 years no one has complained and life has gone on with some grumbling. This issue brought everything to a head. You have to know your audience. Most of the folks living here are retired and want to be left alone. Just don't mess with their money. That may be the same everywhere.

The State of Florida really has very little enforcement of their HOA statute. But this is a non profit corporation that has to abide by those rules as well.

Getting 531 signatures to recall these two specific board members would be more energy than is available -

I have come to the opinion, that the HOA lawyers make so much money because as many of you know, who reads the docs???

As in every association there are generally a few folks willing to step up to the plate. I would prefer to say in this association we are migrating.

I hope I have answered your questions. You all may criticize from afar all you want. For this HOA this was the right decision, IMHO

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Carol

I am also curious what the per month billing per unit was for the monitoring.

Thanks

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleS on 01/05/2014 1:47 PM
I hope I have answered your questions. You all may criticize from afar all you want. For this HOA this was the right decision, IMHO

What exactly did you gain? Even you admit that the amount over budgeted went into reserves. So that just means your reserve contribution later can be lower.

So what exactly did you gain here? Honestly?

So what if something else is over budgeted next time? Are you going to sue for that too? You do understand that budgets are "best" guesses and that it takes time and money to call another budget meeting.

It seems like you want to denigrate your President for not calling another budget meeting of the membership when in fact he may very well just be trying to save the entire community money.

But honestly I do not know your specifics but this whole thing just seems rash without specifics. You understand that $102,000 apportioned among 1,060 homes is just $96.

That $96 per unit went into reserves. Which means next years reserve contribution could have just been $96 less per unit. So now EVERYONE gets to pay higher insurance premiums.

It seems to me, that you just have a hidden agenda here. None of what you state makes much sense at all.

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Also I'd like to add this. I don't know if this applies in Carole's case but it definitely applies to my neck of the woods.

The largest OPPONENTS to proper reserve funding in my HOA are the elderly.

FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276

Posted:

Take away the threat of litigation and how much worse would the behavior of the rogues, the uninformed, the ill-informed, the just don't care etc. become? Thank God there are enough folks like Carol who will on occasion stand up and do what is necessary. It's always the same voices from afar who know nothing of the specifics yet think they know enough to criticize the actions of someone in another state.

While I agree litigation should be a last resort, there are those who will do whatever it takes for self-serving behavior to continue unless they are stopped in a legal manner. We had a Board member when challenged actually say that a certain individual wasn't go to sue so he would continue with what he was doing. There are jerks like this, and letting them get away with whatever they want because some are uncomfortable addressing it just makes the situation worse the longer it goes on. Everyone keeps asking how much this cost her, how much is peace of mind worth and also living the way we teach our children-remember that Golden Rule that was brought up?

Litigation is much better than someone resorting to violence, so let's encourage all means of legally and peacefully resolving issues, but yes try everything reasonable before resorting to litigation. But, let's also quit the knee jerk responses that litigation is always bad for the HOA membership.

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrankS10 on 01/05/2014 2:38 PM
Take away the threat of litigation and how much worse would the behavior of the rogues, the uninformed, the ill-informed, the just don't care etc. become? Thank God there are enough folks like Carol who will on occasion stand up and do what is necessary. It's always the same voices from afar who know nothing of the specifics yet think they know enough to criticize the actions of someone in another state.

While I agree litigation should be a last resort, there are those who will do whatever it takes for self-serving behavior to continue unless they are stopped in a legal manner. We had a Board member when challenged actually say that a certain individual wasn't go to sue so he would continue with what he was doing. There are jerks like this, and letting them get away with whatever they want because some are uncomfortable addressing it just makes the situation worse the longer it goes on. Everyone keeps asking how much this cost her, how much is peace of mind worth and also living the way we teach our children-remember that Golden Rule that was brought up?

Litigation is much better than someone resorting to violence, so let's encourage all means of legally and peacefully resolving issues, but yes try everything reasonable before resorting to litigation. But, let's also quit the knee jerk responses that litigation is always bad for the HOA membership.

Very well put Frank. I totally agree with you. One of the Board members where I live told me he got on the board so he could get his way.

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrankS10 on 01/05/2014 2:38 PM
But, let's also quit the knee jerk responses that litigation is always bad for the HOA membership.

If litigation is warranted yes I agree. But it must be tempered with rationality and practicality.

Seriously Frank? You think such a lawsuit like this is warranted? Over budgeting for one line item, then stuffing the excess into a reserve account is worthy of a lawsuit?

If we called a budget meeting of the membership every single time something went over/under budget we would be having them every single month. At the tune of several thousand dollars per budget meeting.

We'd be calling budget meetings every time the grass grew too high or too low. Well crap we didn't spend as much on landscaping during that drought last year! We best call a budget meeting to appease the CaroleS's in our community lest they falsely accuse us of malfeasance and want to hold us EVIL board members "personally liable" because our crystal ball is in the shop.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GnomeX on 01/05/2014 2:04 PM

Posted By CaroleS on 01/05/2014 1:47 PM
I hope I have answered your questions. You all may criticize from afar all you want. For this HOA this was the right decision, IMHO

Gnomex

Always complicates the thought process when you throw in simple math

If your calculations are correct and I believe they are within acceptable ranges for discussion the numbers suggest each owner was overpaying less than $8 per month. Plus as the OP states this windfall was added to the reserves. Certainly some fault can be found with that.

But for the OP this was worth a legal filing. And others here think this is a positive for the community. HUH

I have to wonder what did the court rule? Repayment? Jail time? Removal from office? Death?

What or where is the victory? The victory some here cheer for no apparent reason. Other than their uncontrollable distaste for any HOA Board.

Wonder how much the insurance costs may be increasing?

FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276

Posted:

Gnomex,

Your question to me is fair. No, I do not think ONE incident of over/under budget item is worthy of litigation. From just my experience though, typically "incidents" like this are the one thing that finally broke the camel's back and forced stronger reaction so Boards would know they must do better representing the memberships' interests.

Look, you guys are always willing to criticize vocal residents, it's about time us vocal residents did the same. You volunteered for your jobs. Perform them correctly, no excuses. Coaches lose, and they get fired. Some of you defend continuous poor decisions and want to blame anyone and everyone that is critical of you. I am a Board member. I will offer no excuses. We expect the same from you or get off of your Boards. Period!

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Since it was a small claims case, why didn't one of the directors represent the HOA? It wouldn't have cost them a thing and there would have been no claim against the insurance. This is legal in Iowa. I don't know about Florida. The president should have amended the budget. Place the blame where it belongs. He knowingly included the $102,000 in the budget for something that was free.

It's not the same as over or under budgeting for something like lawn maintenance. I think there is more to the story. Like the President had a pet project he wanted funded and this was a way to get the money.

JoK2 (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

This is a good case study for current boards and HOA members as a whole.

CaroleS (Florida)
Posts: 97

Posted:

Exactly! I pretty much put the whole story out there - there are no hidden agendas I don't have time for that. This was the straw that broke the camels back - there is a sense of entitlement - oh just send it to the lawyers don't read it - though the president did ask me if I would settle in the very beginning - I said sure he wouldn't -

And I will tell you that they are fighting a bit too hard - which leads e to wonder if there is something they would prefer I don't find out? I don't know - it is my understanding that in Florida this will become a big

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Free for 18 months and then have to pay again. Mmm... So 18 months from now you and your neighbors are okay with a new speciall assessment or dues raise? Seems putting the money in reserves and still pay same amount could have only served to help everyone. A HOa is ONLY funded by it's members for it's members. Seems like good budgetting and foresight to avoid a huge dip in 18 months from now. Plus a HOA is a non profit. It is NOT to make a profit. This would NOT be a profit but secured funds in reserves. Always a good idea.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. This shows what happens when one does sue and wins... Is it really a win? A Peric victory? Raised the insurance rate, had the HOA incur legal costs, and still 18 months from now have to have a special assessment to raise funds for the new security bill??? Mmmm...

Former HOA President

FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276

Posted:

She won. Do you think a judge who reviewed the facts might know a little more about this than you Melissa? And people will move within 18 months. I don't think they want to pay for something coming down the road just because it makes budgeting easier. I think like most rational people, I'll hold onto my own money, even if it is for only 18 months.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503

Posted:

Congrats. I know it probably wasn't easy and you are getting some hate on this board. But I think you did a good thing and were kind to share your experience.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

I agree, congrats. It takes guts and perseverance.

My only disagreement is with the method. Cutting off your finger in order to get people to pay attention may not have been the best method. After everything is done, your still missing a finger. (wink)

In the end, in the future I can only hope you use those guts and perseverance to help fix your HOA instead of damaging it, costing members even more.

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM9 on 01/06/2014 6:16 AM
I agree, congrats. It takes guts and perseverance.

My only disagreement is with the method. Cutting off your finger in order to get people to pay attention may not have been the best method. After everything is done, your still missing a finger. (wink)

In the end, in the future I can only hope you use those guts and perseverance to help fix your HOA instead of damaging it, costing members even more.

The damage was caused by the HOA president, not Carole. As I said before, place the blame where it belongs. Why do many on this forum rush to blame the person who is trying to set things right? I can forgive an honest mistake and poor judgment but in this case, the President was purposeful in his actions. Even honest mistakes and poor decisions have consequences. Sometimes those consequences affect others. That is life.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

The damage was caused by the HOA president, not Carole. As I said before, place the blame where it belongs.

I disagree. I do not place the blame directly on Carole nor only on the HOA president. Officers and board members are a position that the members vote upon, and can easily recall and remove that person(s). I blame the "members" for not having enough guts or foresight to remove these people before it reached this point. In the end, its the members that will be paying more each month of their hard earned money because they failed to pay attention and/or do something about it.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

If I have the facts straight. The issue came about as the newly contracted security company was willing to wave the yearly fee of $60K (for 1000 homes) for two years and the BOD did not reflect this savings in a dues reduction. If my figures are right, the savings is $60 per year ($1.00 per week), per home.

Melissa raised the question of what happens in two years? Will it require an assessment/dues increase that the owners have to vote on? If so what do you assume the odds are they will pass it?

The BOD was foolish in not addressing this which I believe they could have easily done without reducing dues. Something along the lines of a savings has come our way for several years which means we should allow us to keep dues at there present level for the next few years. Great news.

The question is did Carole, even while right, open a Pandora's Box for little more then $1.00 per home per week? You be the judge.

Some never understand how they won every battle they fought but they still lost the war.

FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276

Posted:

John, Steve, others;

You assume the only potential cost was this specific incident. This more than likely was typical behavior of this Board as Carol pointed out, the proverbial straw...

Correcting this type of behavior will more than likely force the Board, and at least some residents, to pay closer attention and to, as one of you pointed out, communicate better. Though the long term savings as well as peace of mind is difficult to quantify in monetary value, no doubt it would be significant not just to Carol but to the others as well who are agreeing with her actions.

It is also very disingenuous of some here to point out that new Board members should just be elected when there has been numerous threads and posts on this site attesting to how difficult it is to get people to volunteer as well as just getting enough residents to show up to vote, in some cases just to meet the quorum requirements. Please, get real!

I for one agree strongly that if you are going to criticize you have to also volunteer-whether that be to mow for free or....

Time and again we have had to deal with Board members who just go along with whatever the developers want and it is obvious because they make statements they prove they are either unethical or have no clue as to what our governing documents state, or both IMO. They are the first to attack those who do offer constructive criticism, and I mean attack!

Sheila, from the other thread, you make some great points, but JMHO, leadership is situational, and different styles will be necessary at different times. The truly great leaders know this and also do not have to be told when their own style fits and when it does not.

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

In my opinion, this is not only a Florida "thing". All Associations in all states, have budgets, so this discussion is applicable to all States and Associations.

CaroleS, Now that you have posted and provided some additional information, what happened is becoming clearer. However, I am still not clear on the time line.

How far in advance is the Budget Prepared? Is your Budget Year the same as the Calendar Year?

Assuming that it is, work on preparing a Budget for the upcoming year probably started in September or October. Was it known then, let's assume September, that a new contract for monitoring services, was going to be signed in January of the next year, and that the first 18 months were to be free?

Who prepares the Budget, the President, the Treasurer, a Budget Committee, or the Management Company?

Am I correct in assuming that the Board approves the Budget at a Board Meeting prior to presenting it to the Members/Owners, at either their September or October Board Meeting, so as to have the “numbers” ready to present at a November Meeting.

You wrote: “a vote to change was taken in November”. And you wrote that “the budget with the old amount was approved in November”.

Would you please explain further? Who "voted to change" in November? And who "voted to approve" the Budget in November? The meeting that you refer to as a “Budget Meeting” – was that an Owner, Membership Meeting with the typical requirements of Quorum, etc?

I am just trying to understand the sequence of events. Thank you.

ValerieS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 244

Posted:

Congratulations Carole!

Unfortunately, sometimes a court judgment is the only means to an end. I am sure it sent a strong message.

SuzanneL (Florida)
Posts: 32

Posted:

Carole, can you give me the Florida statute regarding not assessing for services not received?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrankS10 on 01/06/2014 7:16 AM
John, Steve, others;

You assume the only potential cost was this specific incident. This more than likely was typical behavior of this Board as Carol pointed out, the proverbial straw...

Correcting this type of behavior will more than likely force the Board, and at least some residents, to pay closer attention and to, as one of you pointed out, communicate better. Though the long term savings as well as peace of mind is difficult to quantify in monetary value, no doubt it would be significant not just to Carol but to the others as well who are agreeing with her actions.

It is also very disingenuous of some here to point out that new Board members should just be elected when there has been numerous threads and posts on this site attesting to how difficult it is to get people to volunteer as well as just getting enough residents to show up to vote, in some cases just to meet the quorum requirements. Please, get real!

I for one agree strongly that if you are going to criticize you have to also volunteer-whether that be to mow for free or....

If you're referring to the thread on New Year's Resolutions for homeowners started by JonD1, thanks for the compliment.

After reading all the comments in this thread, I still have to wonder why Carole didn't rally her fellow homeowners the first time and demanded a clearer explanation from the Board president. I also wonder why the president didn't take the time to explain it and maybe this would have been avoided. And finally, this is an example of something I personally would prefer to see handled in an alternative dispute resolution setting - if done right, it costs less money and aggravation and make it easier for both sides to find common ground followed by a resolution. Sometimes you do have to duke it out in court and I'm not mad at Carole for going that route (it sounds like she did try to get an explanation), but I still have to wonder what might have been if someone (I don't care which side) had stopped for a moment, taken a deep breath (or two or three) and thought the thing through a little bit more.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JoK2 (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

Every action has a reaction, and in today's world of a false sense of entitlement, it only takes one wrong reaction to set off the whole chain of reactions that puts it into a court case. It's easy for us on the outside to see how this whole issue could have been avoided, by all parties.

Sadly, this type of reactive listening or communicating will continue because in today's world, not only do HOA's as a whole have a seriously bad reputation, they are also full of homeowners who feel they are entitled to everything and anything they ask for. And some sit on the board. Congress is a perfect example of this type of communication and as you see, it's not very healthy for anyone.

GeoM (Missouri)
Posts: 28

Posted:

To those who feel the need to criticize why she didn't go to the members, did you miss the part about needing 531 signatures for recall? If that is 2/3 of the members, then Carol lives in, like myself, a very large HOA. She stated it would take more energy than available. When breaking down the math, don't forget that while $1/wk doesn't sound like much, $102K is a LOT of money! I always hate it when our Board tries to justify its costs by breaking down the cost per household per week to make any increase appear less significant.

Another mention was made regarding keeping the funds in a reserve account. Probably no one else reading this has such a problem, but in my HOA, until we got an excess of over $20,000 (budgets have run from $18K-$22K) there was only one account. Prior to that, whenever there was an excess it got spent down (secretary wrote online: "we spent it because it was there") which is why the dues were raised in 2010 to 3x the former years to cover the near insolvency we were facing from poor management. After the second year of dues increases, there was over $42K in the checking account by mid-fiscal year. Knowing what happened in 2005-09, the 2011 BOD at least had the foresight to separate the monies. Because of that, the president withdrew $20K without notifying the CPA, purchased four $5K CDs---and kept them in his gun safe in his home! (Oh, somewhere I should mention that despite my insistence, we have not had an audit for the past [at least] 20 years.)

And why must those like Carol who have to sue in order to get a Board's attention be accused of having a hidden agenda? Like she says, there's not enough hours in a day to try and figure out how to "manage" a hidden agenda!

ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120

Posted:

Quote:

How do I put this --- I guess like so: WELL SAID, FRANK!!!!!!

"Don't sue, don't sue, don't sue, nose meet face, Jon meet Jon, Mike meet Carol, Dr. Phil, etc. Don't sue, don't sue. Just take the abuse and the crimes and unknown and eat it with a happy slice of cake. Whatever you do, don't sue. Just accept the fact that a contract is breached or a law is broken." The suggestions and advice of COWARDS.

Fight, sue, bring the matter to the attention of EVERYONE. If you can't get an answer where an answer is supposed to be given, you -- an OWNER - has a right to sue. And sue you should. Sitting silently by because "you don't win" would be like saying, "Why do you NEED to sit in the front of the bus? The back is just as comfortable and you're getting to the same place? Let it go." Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

Fight on, HOA/COA owners. Take it the courts until the courts can't take seeing us anymore.

ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120

Posted:

Congrats on your victory! As you know, you have set a standard not only in your COA/HOA but in general. It's on record and another COA/HOA could rely on this ruling if they wanted to do so if applied to their case. BRAVO!

Also, you showed that these games won't be tolerated. Considering people live in these places for years (decades), it's worth the COA incurring the cost of a law suit now for the betterment of the association moving forward. Board members die/move on, but your investment will be your investment until it is not. And YOU MUST PROTECT IT.

You were right. You did right. Good for you!!!!

And the argument of suing yourself is beyond stupid because the courts are filled with people suing their local, county, state and federal government for issues that matter to them and involve their property. But nose meet face, WE are all paying for those cases in our taxes. Maybe WE as citizens should just let the government on all levels do whatever they want without litigation because "NOSE MEET FACE," it's costing all of us. And we shouldn't rock the boat? Just let those in power (in whatever capacity) do whatever they want -- legal or otherwise -- unchallenged.

Ummmmmmm - hell no.

Bravo to you!!!!

ChrisA13 (New Jersey)
Posts: 120

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeoM on 02/15/2014

And why must those like Carol who have to sue in order to get a Board's attention be accused of having a hidden agenda? Like she says, there's not enough hours in a day to try and figure out how to "manage" a hidden agenda!

THAT IS THE FIRST QUESTION THE COURTS SHOULD ASK THE LAWYERS WHO REPRESENT THE COAa/HOAs. Why did this person need to sue? Why did you, THE CORPORATION, not find a way to resolve this matter before she/he needed to sue? Why are you, the corporation, wasting money defending an issue that does not require a defense because it is YOUR DUTY to perform in a certain manner? Why are we here in court when YOU have duties to the owners and they do NOT have duties to you or power to change the situation?

WHY do owners need to sue? Only because there is no other option and that, if the courts were not on the side of corporations, would realize right off the bat.

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