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Carol-annS (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
I am the president of a 12 year old HOA in Florida. We own our homes but we are in a leased land park. The owner of the park has recently notified the HOA that they will not be supplying them with a list of homeowners in the park. We have been getting this list several times a years from park management. We believe the issue is that we have been complaining about unauthorized renters within the park. Homeowners are not allowed to rent their homes but park management has a rent to own program on homes they own. We also found many valid homeowners not updated on the parks list. Homeowners who have moved, died or purchased other homes and sold their old homes are not accurately listed on the managements list. When we questions these issues with park management we were told that, because of "privacy" issues the HOA would no longer get a list of Homeowners. How is the HOA to verify a valid homeowner who can join the HOA and have voting rights if we can't identify people by ownership. A rent to own resident would have the address in our park as their address so that is not valid. Since they don't own the home they can not join the HOA or vote until they complete the sale of the home. Is the park owner, a large corporation, required to supply, the HOA will a homeowners list?
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Interesting question. IMHO unless the HOA has a contract with the landowner that requires the landowner to provide a list of owners, then I would say it's up to the landowner whether or not he provides a list.

From your description of the property, I'm presuming you are some type of mobile home park which falls under section 723. Reading the chapter titles nothing requiring the landowner to provide a list jumps out. You can see and read the section here: http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2013/Chapter723

If the landowner is unwilling to provide the information you seek, then you would need to do it the old fashioned way and contact whoever titles or deeds your homes to see who the registered owner might be. This too has a drawback because some sales take months to be recorded.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
Carol-annS (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Thanks GlenL,

I also looked at section 723 and found no reference. We are going into rent negotiations in 2014 and may have to find a way to add it to our list of issues. Yes we are in a mobile home park. We have been through a few park managers over the last 2 years and its been hard to keep up with the issues in the park. I'm sure the park owners would hope the HOA would just go away and this is a good way to make it heard for us to maintain and improve membership. We may have to contact our attorney again. If the information is public then I don't know how they can use privacy as an issue. We don't ask for the names on their rent to own properties or on the RV sites. Just the homeowners of record.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
'rent to own' is a misnomer

it would actually be a 'contract sale'

this is NOT a rental
Carol-annS (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Hi JohnB26,
So explain to me the difference, if you have time, and how does that effect the HOA rules that only homeowners can be members? Since the house is still owned by the park and not the "renter" we don't allow them to join the HOA unless they finalize the sale. So many of these types of deals have never ended in the "renter" buying the house but leaving after the 2 years of their contract with management. I think it's just a way for the park owner to fill up our empty lots with homes from another company they own so that they get rent on as many lots as possible.
Thank you for all your help.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
yep - a perfectly legal and unstoppable scam

welcome to the wonderful world of the MBA and Esquire degrees

'should' the contract purchaser fulfill the agreed term of payments they would actually own

similar to car financing - you get the title when paid in full

until then

? actual ownership ?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
yep - a perfectly legal and unstoppable scam

welcome to the wonderful world of the MBA and Esquire degrees

'should' the contract purchaser fulfill the agreed term of payments they would actually own

similar to car financing - you get the title when paid in full

until then

? actual ownership ?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
here is how it is done:

Deed of Trust
A document that embodies the agreement between a lender and a borrower to transfer an interest in the borrower's land to a neutral third party, a trustee, to secure the payment of a debt by the borrower.

A deed of trust, also called a trust deed or a Potomac Mortgage, is used in some states in place of a mortgage, a transfer of interest in land by a mortgagor-borrower to a mortgagee-lender to secure the payment of the borrower's debt. Although a deed of trust serves the same purpose as a type of security, it differs from a mortgage. A deed of trust is an arrangement among three parties: the borrower, the lender, and an impartial trustee. In exchange for a loan of money from the lender, the borrower places legal title to real property in the hands of the trustee who holds it for the benefit of the lender, named in the deed as the beneficiary. The borrower retains equitable title to, and possession of, the property.

The terms of the deed provide that the transfer of legal title to the trustee will be void on the timely payment of the debt. If the borrower defaults in the payment of the debt, the trustee is empowered by the deed to sell the property and pay the lender the proceeds to satisfy the debt. Any surplus will be returned to the borrower.

The right of the trustee to sell the premises is called foreclosure by power of sale. It differs in several respects from the power of a mortgagee to sell mortgaged property upon default, which is called a judicial foreclosure. A foreclosure by power of sale is neither supervised nor confirmed by a court, unlike a judicial foreclosure. While the rights received by a purchaser at a foreclosure by power of sale are the same as those obtained at a judicial foreclosure, there is a practical difference. Since the sale has not been judicially approved, there is a greater possibility of litigation over title, thereby making title to the purchased premises less secure than one purchased at a judicial foreclosure. In addition, the lender may purchase the property for sale under the provisions of a deed of trust, since the neutral trustee conducts the sale. This is not the case in a foreclosure, unless contract or statute provides otherwise, since the mortgagee must act impartially in selling the property to satisfy the debt. Some mortgages may, however, provide for foreclosure by power of sale.

The procedure for a foreclosure by power of sale is regulated by statute, a characteristic shared by a judicial foreclosure. All interested parties must be given notice of the sale, which must be published in local newspapers, usually in the public notice columns, for a certain period of time as required by statute. The sale is usually open to the public to ensure that the property will be sold at its fair market value.
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
Carol Ann, can you elaborate? The homes are situated on a leased parcels? Is the HOA mandatory for all unit owners? Or is it a voluntary association? If its mandatory, someone must own the unit while its being 'rented towards ownership' and be required to pay dues, yes? and JohnB26, are you saying that the Deed of Trust puts the property into like a purgatory where ownership is too cloudy to enforce deed restrictions?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
..... borrower places legal title to real property in the hands of the trustee .....


welcome to the necessity for 'title searches' before enforcement to determine actual ownership
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
John and Allison:

Deeds of trust have little to do with rent-to-own contracts.

Under pressure from the mortgage industry, Arizona adopted the deed-of-trust about 40 years ago. From the borrower's standpoint, it is the same as a mortgage. Mortgages are still legal but all but impossible to obtain. The lenders like deeds of trust as it allows them to foreclose in as little as 90 days. A deed of trust is recorded as a lien against the property just like a mortgage would be. When purchasing under a deed of trust, the buyer(s) receives a recorded deed in his/their name(s) only and the deed of trust is recorded as a lien against that property. The buyer is then the legal owner of record for the property. There is no "cloud" on the title.

Rent-to-own contracts seem to have little regulation and are just one more scam perpetrated on the poor. The renter/buyer has little chance of ever completing the sale and little if any of his payments actually go toward the purchase. Maybe someone out there has purchased a home with a rent-to-own contract but I have yet to meet one. I would not take a rent-to-own situation seriously until I see a deed in the name of the buyer, with or without some form of lien against the title.

Carol-annS (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Hi Everyone, and thanks for the great info. Who knew I would have to become a "expert" in all this stuff.
We are in a leased land mobile home park in south eastern Florida. For years only people who purchased homes were allowed in the park. A few years ago, the company who owns our park, a REIT, purchased a mobile home manufacturer and sold these homes in the park. I owe one of them myself. Oh, the park also has a limited amount of RV sites as well. After Andrew, the big hurricane, most homes where destroyed and they changed the land use to both manufactured homes and RV's.
Well two years ago the owners started a "rent to own" problem on houses they installed. Also on homes that they had to take over from owners for non payment of rent etc. I agree that these never turn into sales. Usually if a renter really likes the park they find a reasonable used home to purchase and the cycle begins again. But our bylaws say that only Homeowners can join the HOA. It is not mandatory. Our issue is without a list of "homeowners" from the park how do with identity renters from homeowners? As I stated before because we questioned that homes not owned by the park were being rented privately without managements knowledge and again the Rules and Regulations we all received when we purchased our homes, as well as the lack of the required vetting process imposed on all new homeowners, the HOA was concerned that the park was not controlling who was living in our park. All family members are to be registered and vetted and anyone else moving into an existing home was suppose to follow the same procedure. We experienced a large amount of robberies and home break in last summer and it was not controlled until the HOA forced management to change the gate system and identify and remove unauthorized people who would not register or who didn't pass the vetting process. This year we see the same problem and could confirm it by the list of homeowners the park supplied the HOA in October. The HOA year runs from November to October 31st of the following year. When we questioned these issues again we were notified that a list would no longer be supplied to the HOA. How do we solicit new homeowners as new members if we can't identify homeowners from renters? I know we can check public records but with 547 lots this is a large task and has no guarantee of accuracy because the records are sometimes years behind. So that's our problem. I was wondering if there was a requirement that the HOA must be supplied a list, as I believe this is like HOA busting, but have not contacted any State agencies yet because of the holidays. Any idea's on how to approach the park corporation on this issue? Again that's for all the information. I learn something new everyday on this site. Not a bad thing at all.
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
What are the benefits of belonging to the HOA? I only ask this because it seems like the company that owns the park has a lot of control over everything that is happening there. It seems to me that the neighborhood you thought you had moved into is slowly disappearing. What is the company responsible for and what is the HOA responsible for? Is there any benefit to the company for the HOA to remain?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
I know we can check public records....


there is your answer

even if a list was supplied, how would you check it for accuracy ?

you wish to form an association ?! go right ahead - form it !

since the landowner(s) are not homeowners why would they help you ?

grow up, become adults responsible for yourselves, and quit whining
Carol-annS (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Hi AllisonD

The HOA was formed years ago so that we would have the right of first refusal if the park got sold. We missed an opportunity when the original park owner needed to sell after Hurricane Andrew. We wanted to have the opportunity to buy the park if it ever went up for sale.
Over the years, the HOA has grown in it's involvement with problems arising from some mismanagement of the park. We are one of many that the REIT owns but we are a profitable park to them. Our problems seem to stem from a middle regional VP who really hates all HOA's in any parks. She thinks we should never complain about anything. We pay rent and expect the company to keep up their obligations regarding the grounds, the pool and spa, and general maintenance. The HOA gets funds from the corporation to run social events in the park and we have a large group of homeowners who volunteer to keep us busy all week look. We do have a great life in sunny Florida. But I also think that without community input through an HOA all companies will let everything slide as long as they can. Funds will be cut, capital improvements will be put off and the general care of the park will decease. As always the bottom line is their first concern. If no one complains why fix it? I am just trying to find a non adversarial way to get this information.
Thanks for all your help.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
PUBLIC RECORDS SEARCH

? does your county's web site have a GIS application ?

oops ..... it would only tell you the LAND OWNER of record

as per the list of tenants....ask your LANDLORD

if you don't like living there -> MOVE

or

seek redress in the appropriate court if you can for breach of contract

remember: legally, if not an owner, you are a tenant
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By Carol-annS on 12/28/2013 2:43 PM
Hi AllisonD

The HOA was formed years ago so that we would have the right of first refusal if the park got sold. We missed an opportunity when the original park owner needed to sell after Hurricane Andrew. We wanted to have the opportunity to buy the park if it ever went up for sale.
Over the years, the HOA has grown in it's involvement with problems arising from some mismanagement of the park. We are one of many that the REIT owns but we are a profitable park to them. Our problems seem to stem from a middle regional VP who really hates all HOA's in any parks. She thinks we should never complain about anything. We pay rent and expect the company to keep up their obligations regarding the grounds, the pool and spa, and general maintenance. The HOA gets funds from the corporation to run social events in the park and we have a large group of homeowners who volunteer to keep us busy all week look. We do have a great life in sunny Florida. But I also think that without community input through an HOA all companies will let everything slide as long as they can. Funds will be cut, capital improvements will be put off and the general care of the park will decease. As always the bottom line is their first concern. If no one complains why fix it? I am just trying to find a non adversarial way to get this information.
Thanks for all your help.

What do your governing documents say is the purpose of your HOA? It looks like a classic case of mission creep. You do not seem to be operating for the purpose you were originally created for, and this means that its not making sense; there is no obligation for the park owner to reveal new homeowners. So if you lease your property, your lease must state what the owners are responsible for. Also there are property owners, do you know what their responsibilities are in relation to the park? Do the owners pay dues for anything? It reminds me of when my Dad's Manhattan apartment went condo.... the renters felt like 2nd class citizens and really the building owner did not want any renters, they wanted everyone to be owners.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
DOH
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Carol

It sounds like the prior owners might have been more gracious, wanting to fill all lots, sell homes, etc. and were willing to listen to their lot renters. Now it seems you have owners that say it is our park, we will run it as we wish.

I doubt there is little you can do without some legal representation and even then, you all do not own it.
Carol-annS (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
ARTICLE II
PURPOSES/MISSION
The XXXXXXXXXX HOA shall engage in any activity or business permitted under the laws of the United States and the State of Florida; mainly to represent homeowners in all matters common to the rules, regulations and operations of the community with the owner of XXXXXXXXXX Manufactured Home and R. V. Resort. This would include, but not
be limited to restrictions, maintenance, use of park property, security, rent and other use fees. In the event that the homeowners purchase the community, then the corporation would own, operate and manage the community on behalf of the homeowners. The Corporation shall not participate in the carrying on of propaganda and the Corporation shall not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements) any
political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office.
The mission of the xxxxxxxxxx HOA is to represent the homeowners by coordinating and negotiating issues with park ownership and park management and any agency or organization which offers assistance to owners of manufactured homes.

This is our mission statement. I removed the name of the park as I don't think it's allowed on this site and I don't know that my question can't apply to others. I don't think we expanded our mission statement. Again, I think our problem will have to be solved by talking to the park owners and explaining our issues. We don't eliminate renters from any activities and are happy to have legal renters in the park as long as they have been vetted and follow the rules. Our concern is we are a homeowners HOA and how do we know who the homeowner is without a list. We can always do the heard work of checking records but I think we need to try and work with park management and owners.
Again, I appreciate all the input.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
your 'mission' sounds very lofty

y'all formed a corporation in an attempt to fulfill same

it is EXACTLY the same mission of every tenant

In the event that the homeowners purchase the community....


AFTER y'all purchase the community, THEN, y'all will be in charge.

Until then y'all are, in fact, tenants.

GET OVER YOURSELVES

CAVEAT EMPTOR
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
Carol-annS it sounds like the Park owners are the ones who make the rules and your HOA is there to provide a unified voice for homeowners. You haven't said whether membership is mandatory or if the new homeowners have their own HOA. What about your lease? Does it mention the HOA (as it existed at the time you signed your lease)? Anyone can create an HOA and you can have a membership body but you cant make other entities deal with you. For instance, FP&L does not deal with my entire association as a whole to provide electricity for individual homes. We could ask them to provide electricity to our association as a whole, but we can't make them do it. We do however, make it mandatory for all homeowners to be members of the HOA and pay dues, because the plat and deeds say we can legally. In your case, it does not seem as though your HOA can make the park owner do anything, unless there is something on your lease that states it. Is there anything in your lease that mentions the HOA or who is responsible for maintenance issues and how to resolve them?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
pps. a properly executed 'rent to own' contract would use a 'deed of trust' to protect BOTH parties
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 12/30/2013 6:01 AM
pps. a properly executed 'rent to own' contract would use a 'deed of trust' to protect BOTH parties

"Properly executed" is at the crux of the problem. Rent-to-own contracts seem to be drawn up by landlords without much input from attorneys. I always suspect that such agreements are carrot-on-a-stick incentives to get the tenant to keep the property in better condition than he might do otherwise and it allows the landlord to tell the tenant to "Fix it yourself; it's your property" even though the title is unlikely to ever transfer.

I am not aware of any regulation of rent-to-own contracts in my state. Are there any states that do regulate these contracts.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:


down here most rent-to-own deals (contract sales) are as follows:

owner is renting the property and paying a mtge.

tenant expects repairs to be made

owner is losing $

owner and tenant agree to raise rent by about 20% one time + annual property taxes

owner draws up rent-to-own contract for 30 years

tenant signs

tenant will own the home after 30 years ~ but ~ but ~ builds no equity 'along the way'

deed of trust filed

tenant is now 'owner' and supplies all maintenance and pays all taxes

owner 'off the hook' for mtge. + gets a small/reasonable profit over time

should new 'owner' default - all is well as a deed of trust merely requires a quick court visit to restore since it is not a mortgage loan but a purchase contract

win - win for both parties

hopefully

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