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KP1 (Colorado)
Posts: 73
Posted:
I replaced 2 windows 4 months ago with prior approval of the Board. The old windows were non-opening and 28 years old and inefficient energy wise. I sent the board photos of the vinyl double paned double hung windows prior to installation and told them that since they only came in tan and white, I would have them painted to match the building paint scheme. I gave the board the date that windows were to be painted, bought the matching paint and work was completed (note here VP lives right next to me and saw the job being done). Vinyl windows should not have the interior track painted so only the flat surface facing out can be painted. I just found out via board meeting last night that the President and VP no longer approve of the window as it looks now, since the tan track is visible and inconsistent with other windows.
Our docs state this:
"Owners Maintenance Responsibility of Units and Apurtenant Limited Common Elements. For purposes of maintenance, repair, alteration & remodeling, an owner shall be deemed to own the windows, doors, interior non-supporting walls, the materials making up the finished surfaces of the perimeter walls, ceilings and floors within the unit, and the unit doors and windows. Such right to repair, alter and remodel shall carry the obligation to to place any finishing materials removed with similar or other types or kinds of finishing materials of equal or batter quality."
I looked up the definition of finishing materials per construction terms - (in construction), materials and items used to improve the service and decorative qualities of buildings and structures, as well as to protect structural members from atmospheric and other effects. The main finishing materials in modern construction include finishing mortars and concretes; natural and artificial masonry materials; decorative ceramics; materials and items made from wood, paper, glass, plastic, and metals; and paints and varnishes.

Finishing materials are usually designed for interior or exterior finishing; some materials are used for both (for example, natural decorative stone, ceramic materials, and architectural glass). A special group consists of materials and items for covering floors, which must meet a number of specific requirements (negligible wear, high impact strength, and so on). Finishing materials also include acoustic materials, which are used simultaneously as sound-absorbing coatings and as a decorative finish for the interiors of theaters, concert halls, and motion-picture theaters.

An arbitrary distinction is made between finishing materials proper, which are used mainly to form decorative and protective coatings (varnishes and paints, wallpaper, polymeric films, linoleum, and so on), and structural finishing materials, which also perform the functions of enclosing members and are components of such members (decorative concrete, facing brick, glass blocks, and molded glass).

I have looked through all our docs and rules and have not found anyplace where it says one is required to get approval for door/window replacement and if not done by board standards, board can remove them. Other noteables.
Structural Changes are- No structural alterations to any unit shall be made or similar work within the common elements shall be done w/o prior consent.
I looked up structural definition - windows do not apply.
Common Elements - means the entire project except all units
Management & Control of Common Elements - HOA is responsible for the Exclusive management and control of the common elements and all improvement thereof. HOA shall be responsible for the maintenance & repair of the exterior surfaces of buildings & improvements, including painting, replacement of trim, caulking.....
Use of common elements - Nothing shall be altered, removed, constructed on common elements w/o board approval.

Sorry for the length of this - just wanted to provide as much info as possible.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, especially if you have had a similar experience.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
I try to keep it simple: Ask the board to clearly show you in writing what rules you violated. My favorite line is "So that I can better understand and comply with both the intent and letter of the law, can you please provide me with a copy of it, or show me exactly where it can be found, thank you so very much."

Remind them also that you had prior approval, and that you did exactly what that approval required. Keep all the rest of the information you have gathered, it is good research.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 12/11/2013 7:20 AM
Remind them also that you had prior approval, and that you did exactly what that approval required. Keep all the rest of the information you have gathered, it is good research.

This sounds to me like a breakdown in communication. My guess is the KP1 didn't tell the board that the tracks couldn't be painted and that the track color would be visible from the outside. Perhaps KP1 didn't think that was important, or maybe didn't know that until after the windows were installed. The board, on the other hand, assumed that the windows, after painting and when viewed from the outside, would look like all the other windows. It just goes to show the little details that we overlook can become major issues. Unfortunately, learning from experience doesn't enable to change the past.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
KP,

I have similar windows. What color did you paint yours?

You might be able to spray paint the tracks with a thin coat of enamel. Hobby shops normally have spray paints that are intended for use on plastic. My own windows have a fair amount of play between the frames and tracks. Latex would go on far too heavy but a light spray paint might not be a problem.

Another possible solution would be to cut some thin plastic strips, paint them the same color as the exterior, and insert them into the tracks. You could remove the plastic strips if you wish to open the window. Again, you can normally find this kind of material at a hobby shop.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
KP

Did you not assure them the window frames would be the same color (white)? Are they?
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Spray paint the tracks and call it finished. Not worth the headache and the windows will blend in with the rest of the units.

PS. You ordered the wrong kind of windows. You should have ordered painted aluminum with matching tracks.
KP1 (Colorado)
Posts: 73
Posted:
Photos of windows and description were given to board members and approved prior to installation.

We have 4 buildings with 2 windows on each end. Of the 4 buildings, only one has the exact same windows on each end. One building has stained glass on one end and clear single pane on the other. Mine has my new double hung on my end and stained glass on the other. The last building has the same as mine. So out of 16 windows 4 are like mine, 10 are stained glass and 2 are single pane glass. The stained single pane glass is the original and is 30 years old.

Thanks some of you for some very creative thoughts and ideas.
KP1 (Colorado)
Posts: 73
Posted:
Additionally, I was told the Design Review Committee or Architectural Committee needed to approve. However, neither of these committees are mentioned ANYWHERE in our docs or rules & regs. While I think the intention was to legally document the existence of such a committee many years ago and adopt that policy officially it was never entered into covenants or rules.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KP1 on 12/19/2013 6:42 AM
Additionally, I was told the Design Review Committee or Architectural Committee needed to approve. However, neither of these committees are mentioned ANYWHERE in our docs or rules & regs. While I think the intention was to legally document the existence of such a committee many years ago and adopt that policy officially it was never entered into covenants or rules.

Committees are usually appointed by and serve at the pleasure of the BOD. Covenants would rarely call for such.

Typically when one has an issue with a committee, they can appeal the committee ruling to the BOD.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/19/2013 2:03 PM

Committees are usually appointed by and serve at the pleasure of the BOD. Covenants would rarely call for such.

If the covenants do not require approval by the association, then the association has no lawful basis to adopt such a requirement.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I agree with Larry. But must say I'm surprised that an architectural review committee or mechanism of some sort is not required in KP1's governing docs. In my HOA, for instance, such a committee is required by our CC&Rs and some of the guidelines are spelled out in our CC&Rs too. In addition, in CA HOAs, homeowners have the right to appeal ARC's decisions to the board.

KP1, is it possible there might be some sort of state statutes/laws that address such committees?
KP1 (Colorado)
Posts: 73
Posted:
The Board has said there is such a committee but there is no written word anywhere in all docs that one exists. The board does have the power to create such a committee but I believe it should be specified at least in the rules and regulations. There is zero written in the R & R's about architectural changes, committees or requirements. I believe it is simply lack of follow thru. I have researched many other existing docs of HOA's nearby and they all have this item written and worded very carefully (detailed) either in covenants, R & R's or both. I have found this to be common for our board to say it is so but be unable to show in docs where the authority comes from. I have requested reviews of docs and R & R's, indeed our docs are old and in some cases outdated. Some of the current R & R's are no longer actually required or enforced. For instance, my neighbor just painted her cement patio yellow but did not request permission from the board. The patio is a limited common element maintained by the HOA. The board did not even know this was done, before my windows actually. Patios/decks are not permitted to be storage areas but are used as such w/o consequences - some by existing board members. I think it's just lack of will to do what's required. I know it is voluntary and did serve myself for a few years. I left because I felt decisions were made w/o authority and that decision making process bothered me. People just do not have the time, or that is the reason given.
KP1 (Colorado)
Posts: 73
Posted:
The Board has said there is such a committee but there is no written word anywhere in all docs that one exists. The board does have the power to create such a committee but I believe it should be specified at least in the rules and regulations. There is zero written in the R & R's about architectural changes, committees or requirements. I believe it is simply lack of follow thru. I have researched many other existing docs of HOA's nearby and they all have this item written and worded very carefully (detailed) either in covenants, R & R's or both. I have found this to be common for our board to say it is so but be unable to show in docs where the authority comes from. I have requested reviews of docs and R & R's, indeed our docs are old and in some cases outdated. Some of the current R & R's are no longer actually required or enforced. For instance, my neighbor just painted her cement patio yellow but did not request permission from the board. The patio is a limited common element maintained by the HOA. The board did not even know this was done, before my windows actually. Patios/decks are not permitted to be storage areas but are used as such w/o consequences - some by existing board members. I think it's just lack of will to do what's required. I know it is voluntary and did serve myself for a few years. I left because I felt decisions were made w/o authority and that decision making process bothered me. People just do not have the time, or that is the reason given.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KP1 on 12/25/2013 10:07 AM
The Board has said there is such a committee but there is no written word anywhere in all docs that one exists. The board does have the power to create such a committee . . .

The board may create all the committees it wishes to but the board and its committees have only those powers expressly granted in the declaration or granted by law.

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