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DoreyC (New Hampshire)
Posts: 5
Posted:
We just found out an owner in our HOA is renting out his house for short terms, like weekends, weeks, of vacation rentals of less than 30 days. Our CCR's do not allow this practice. Those owners, to get around this, are having tenants sign a 31 day contract, and discounting their tenants rates for whatever time tenants wants to rent. How do we stop this as sometimes they have 10 or so people renting.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Welcome to the forum, Dorey.

Do you mean the owners have 10 or more different parties a month rent the house?

If you can prove that more than one party rents the house in a month, I'd say start fining the owners for the excess rental groups during that month.

We have the same policy as yours. Early this year, a short term renter for a long weekend showed onsite management a letter from the rental agent to tell anyone at our HOA who inquired that they were "relatives" of the Owner. The letter also instructed them to never go to the management office or ask questions of our security officers. These renters did not like the sleaziness involved.

Well, this letter formed the grounds on which we fined the owner for violating the 30-day rule. No short terms problems with that owner for several months now.
DoreyC (New Hampshire)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Meant to say, in one rental for long weekend there were 10 people. It has been observed by other owners during any given month, there are sometime four different renters. Your suggestion, if we could prove it, to start fining for the overage in rentals per month. Now to suggest that to the board. Thank you.
ValerieS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 244
Posted:
"If you can prove that more than one party rents the house in a month, I'd say start fining the owners for the excess rental groups during that month."

Is there a provision in the governing documents disallowing more than one person or parties from renting simultaneously? Is it 30 days in a calendar month? If not, then the owner can pretty much manipulate the calendar as he/she sees fit.

Sounds like they have found a clever/sneaky way around your rule. Are these owners who are observing more than one rental person/group per month observing any other issues?
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Have you sent a letter to the owner telling him to stop and of your intention to fine?
DoreyC (New Hampshire)
Posts: 5
Posted:
The board has sent them a letter, but no response as I understand. The board is on top of this case at this time, but since it is early yet, so we have to wait and see what happens next.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Well, Dorey, if 10 people stay in the house simultaneously and your rules place no limit on how many stay at one time, I don't think you have a case.

OK, your Board's on it. They won't get very far though if the infraction fine isn't specified in your rules or elsewhere in your governing documents. Or is $250 for the first violation with the possibility of doubling for future violations of that type.

In reality, $250 is peanuts in this case, but if tripled, owners would definitely pay attention. In addition, if violated more than once, we could stop occupants from using our gym, pool & other amenities.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Dorey, if it were me, I would find out who regulates hotels/motels in your city, county and state and sic them on the owner. I would imagine at the very least he is guilty of not paying "room use tax" which is a much bigger problem than an HOA fine. Oh and don't forget your local Fire Marshal, I would be willing to bet there are special codes that are applicable to short term rentals. Let the government do your dirty work for you. Almost forgot since he is doing short term rentals, he probably needs a business license and I doubt he is paying any local taxes either.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
Wasting your time.

The problem is proof.

So far you have not shown any.

Good luck finding records of lease or rental.

'It's friends of mine staying over'.... and cash transactions.

Now if you have parking or or other violations you can PROVE... .
DoreyC (New Hampshire)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Thanks all for your input. I see we have our work cut out for us to prove. If we can get proof that is the quest..........The state and town agencies is a great place to begin!
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 11/25/2013 3:41 PM
Dorey, if it were me, I would find out who regulates hotels/motels in your city, county and state and sic them on the owner. I would imagine at the very least he is guilty of not paying "room use tax" which is a much bigger problem than an HOA fine. Oh and don't forget your local Fire Marshal, I would be willing to bet there are special codes that are applicable to short term rentals. Let the government do your dirty work for you. Almost forgot since he is doing short term rentals, he probably needs a business license and I doubt he is paying any local taxes either.

Sound advice.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Dorey,

There are many other steps your association can take to curtail this nonsense.

You could adopt a rule that the association must approve all leases. You could then treat any non-approved renters as trespassers and fine the unit owner for non-compliance.

You could adopt a move-in/move-out fee. The normal rationale for this fee is to pay for damage to the property during moving but it can also be used to discourage short-term rentals. If the fee has not been paid, the tenant is a trespasser and the unit owner is subject to a fine.

You could also adopt a parking sticker system. No sticker and the car gets towed. Every owner gets a sticker when he shows up in-person.

A part of me thinks it is a bad idea to inflict a hardship on the innocent renter, but then I have to ask if they are really all that innocent. They know they are renting in a condo complex and not a hotel. The restrictions are recorded so they have no reason to claim ignorance of the prohibition against short-term rentals. Besides that, they must be aware that they have signed a 30-day lease without paying for 30 days and without an intent to remain for 30 days. They are willing accomplices and not innocent victims.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I'm with you Larry. The renters are signing leases for 30 days even though they're not staying that long. They are willing accomplices.

But it sounds like Dorey's HOA might be detached homes whereas some of your ideas might work in condo settings.

But even in our high rise urban towers, most short-termers just bring luggage and look like any legitimate houseguests in these furnished condos. A move fee wouldn't apply. As "guests" of the owner they can park in our visitor parking area of the underground garage or have written permission to park in the owners space(s). Often, they take taxis to us from the airport and get around by walking in our setting.

Of our 200+ condos, there seem to be only 2-3 units that are used this way and we have no proof of this. None of these rent out their units constantly.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Assuming that the unit has standard door knobs, there is a device that I think is called a "Key Blok." It fits over the door knob and locks in place, preventing the door from being unlocked or even opened.

You can put one of these on the knob and when a renter tries to enter you say that you believe someone other than the owner has been living here. Since no one has provided us with a lease for approval or paid the move-in fees we have no reason to believe that you are here lawfully. Leave now or get arrested for trespassing.

What can the unit owner do? Go to court and tell the judge that the association has prevented him from breaching the terms of the covenants and interfered with his scheme to evade occupancy taxes? He has a fat chance of winning that one.

PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 11/25/2013 8:15 PM
Assuming that the unit has standard door knobs, there is a device that I think is called a "Key Blok." It fits over the door knob and locks in place, preventing the door from being unlocked or even opened.

You can put one of these on the knob and when a renter tries to enter you say that you believe someone other than the owner has been living here. Since no one has provided us with a lease for approval or paid the move-in fees we have no reason to believe that you are here lawfully. Leave now or get arrested for trespassing.

What can the unit owner do? Go to court and tell the judge that the association has prevented him from breaching the terms of the covenants and interfered with his scheme to evade occupancy taxes? He has a fat chance of winning that one.


How is it my association can essentially tresspass upon my property and apply devices or apparatuses to prevent entry to my property based on suspicion of a covenant violation?

I assure you the HOA will have overstepped it's authority by doing such.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PeterD3 on 11/26/2013 4:32 AM

How is it my association can essentially tresspass upon my property and apply devices or apparatuses to prevent entry to my property based on suspicion of a covenant violation?

I assure you the HOA will have overstepped it's authority by doing such.

You are probably right but what will the owner do? Take you to court to preserve his "right" to continue to use his property in violation of the covenants and various ordinances? His remedy is to comply with the covenants.

BTW, the rationale behind the lockout is not suspicion of a covenant violation but suspicion of occupancy by squatters. The persons seeking to enter are not the owners and no rental agreement has been presented to the association, so they must be squatters. The owner should be grateful that he has such vigilant neighbors.

Also, it's usually not trespassing unless a sign has been posted or the owner has verbally told one to leave. Since most CC&R's prohibit signs, that leaves only the owner to make a verbal demand. And since he is not present, there is no trespass.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 11/25/2013 8:15 PM
Assuming that the unit has standard door knobs, there is a device that I think is called a "Key Blok." It fits over the door knob and locks in place, preventing the door from being unlocked or even opened.

You can put one of these on the knob and when a renter tries to enter you say that you believe someone other than the owner has been living here. Since no one has provided us with a lease for approval or paid the move-in fees we have no reason to believe that you are here lawfully. Leave now or get arrested for trespassing.

What can the unit owner do? Go to court and tell the judge that the association has prevented him from breaching the terms of the covenants and interfered with his scheme to evade occupancy taxes? He has a fat chance of winning that one.


I think this is extremely risky advice and dangerous. The HOA is suspicious of visitors and so they decide to lockout the property unless the homeowner goes to court and prove the visitors are not renters?

Where does it end?
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I'm with Kevin & Peter. Too draconian and risky for the HOA . As a director, I need to protect its assets and see lawsuit written all over this advice.

In addition, in our high rise case and probably in the cases of detached homes too, there's no way of telling who "those people with the luggage" are. Could be the absentee owners themselves, their invited friends/family.
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
Also its bad advise because you are punishing the wrong people. The renters probably have no clue that the landlord is breaking rules. The best advise so far was to look at your local codes and ordinances to find rules that are being broken and to notify the taxing agency that collects on businesses and hotel room tax.
LauraR5 (Tennessee)
Posts: 220
Posted:
I would call codes and tell them that you believe someone is operating an illegal boarding house. The rules for short-term vs. long-term rentals are different. No one wants a flop house in their neighborhood, especially if a dwelling is not zoned for it. I'd bet that your city has zoning ordinances on how many non-related people can occupy a single-family home at a time.
DoreyC (New Hampshire)
Posts: 5
Posted:
It is something we are concerned with, the renters> They certainly are aware of signing a 30 day lease, and not staying that long, paying for that length of stay, they are willing accomplices of the "owner". also, parking stickers is a good idea, and seeing the signed leases by the owner's tenants. As it stands we do not know who these people are, where they come from etc. Owners say these people who occupy the house every weekend, during the week and other periods of time are just friends, co workers or relatives. The owners use several listing websites to get tenants. If their renters are friends, co workers or relatives, then why do they need a listing website? I can see this will be a long haul to solve this problem in our neighborhood of detached houses. Thanks for the advice.

AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304
Posted:
Agree with Laura- there is more than one way. Your city or county ordinances may be specific about short-term rentals.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
I'm wondering how this owner is reporting his rental income on his income taxes. Probably isn't. It's certainly complicated with all those short-term rentals. He may be breaking federal and state tax laws as well.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
You could contact the NH Dept of Revenue, I'm sure they would love to hear about it.

Or.... a little more evil.....

You could fill out a rooms and meals tax form "for him" based on the rates from the web site. Fill his name, in all the income lines, for each month for 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and mail it in without a check. Let him fight it out with them. 9% tax!

PS. If you do this...... tell no one. Take it to your grave.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 11/27/2013 6:40 AM
You could contact the NH Dept of Revenue, I'm sure they would love to hear about it.

Or.... a little more evil.....

You could fill out a rooms and meals tax form "for him" based on the rates from the web site. Fill his name, in all the income lines, for each month for 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and mail it in without a check. Let him fight it out with them. 9% tax!

PS. If you do this...... tell no one. Take it to your grave.

I love this but as said....zip lip.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Hey look, Mr Smith's illegal rental has a lien from the state of NH dept of revenue for $24,000. Very odd. ;-)
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 11/27/2013 6:40 AM

Or.... a little more evil.....
You could fill out a rooms and meals tax form "for him" based on the rates from the web site. Fill his name, in all the income lines, for each month for 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and mail it in without a check. Let him fight it out with them. 9% tax!

Steve,

I do believe that you are the new Prince of Darkness! Love it.

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