Noise

I am wondering what a board can do when there is a complain from one owner about noise coming from an upstairs neighbor. The neighbor has already approached the one above but didn't get anywhere. Noise is coming from 'normal' activities like walking around, loud talking, moving furniture, accidentally dropping items, etc. The problems is that it happens at all hours. It usually starts at 5-6am and goes on until past midnight.

The association regulations allow hardwood floors and the unit above has laminate installed with a cork sound protection. For the longest time the board kept saying that this is normal and refused to intervene. Over the past few weeks I spent some time in the unit to witness the situation and I can agree - it's bad. It's not just an imagination. Complains come from only one unit because it's one unit directly below the other.

what no-one wants to hear, but true none-the-less:

the structure itself is absolute garbage

it DOES meet minimum code, but is not in the samr universe as 'best practice'

live with it or move out

JohnC, thanks for the attack and your absolutely useless response. If you got nothing to add to a conversation just skip it all together. There are no points for the highest number of posts.

For the rest of you, those that are extremely helpful. Have you had any experience with acoustics testing in units? Our CC&Rs clearly state that the sound insulation need to meet a certain rating. Would this be something that our board may consider?

There goes another dream ruined. I as sure I had read you got a prize after 5,000 posts

No experience with acoustics but it would be helpful if you posted the entire section of your CC&R's dealing with the flooring issue.

If the upstairs owner installed flooring that conforms to your requirements, then there is a problem with the CC&R's. If his flooring does not conform then he is in deep doo doo as both your association and the downstairs owner have a basis for taking legal action against him.

Thanks Jeff - This is good info - I'm curious - How would you go about measuring the dB or determining the rating? Is this in the manufacturer specs?

Larry

In my HOA you will be allowed to park it in your driveway, just not overnight. Park it in your garage and no issues.

Yep - I agree - Neighbor to Neighbor. Perhaps the new county ordinance might have some teeth. In reading the document, there is a very clear, strict guideline that should make it easier to enforce. Tks.

Our 12 y.o. twin tower high rises require a 11C of 59 or higher. Our ARC accepts all kinds of hard surface flooring and, nowadays, it seems like we have 1-2 applications monthly as condo units are being sold quite rapidly and new owners are refurbishing them. In addition, our ARC Guidelines specify:

"If a contractor specifies the use of something other than the products mentioned above, a product spec sheet from the manufacturer must be supplied with the architectural application showing an IIC rating of 59 or higher.
If a combo foam product or cork will not to be used as an underlayment, it is the homeowner's responsibility to pay a fee for an outside consultant to determine if the installation meets or exceeds the noise requirement of an IIC rating of 59 or higher. The consultant will be selected solely by the Architectural Committee. Please be advised that this may impact the time period a homeowner estimates to complete the installation.
EXPANSION GAP REQUIREMENTS:
All perimeter areas of the installation (where the floor meets the wall) must allow for an expansion gap of 1/4" to 3/8", width wise, to limit the noise transference and buckling that causes noise transference."

If a cork underlayment is used, it must be 3/4 inch. We have no complaints of noise. All applicants must be approved by the ARC, who alone or with our mgr. asst. can inspect the work in progress.

John,

In this case there was no specific product required. Whatever they put down, including carpet, has to meet the noise standard.

"Acoustical Limitations. Hard-surfaced floors such as marble, granite, tile and hardwood, etc. must have proper noise insulating materials installed so as to avoid noise problems with neighboring units. Such floors must have a minimum 52 dB FIIC rating. Whenever floors are re- carpeted, they must also meet or exceed a 52 dB FIIC rating."

I have no idea what FIIC ratings are but I would be that there is a whole army of expert witnesses in California who can explain it.

Fred, thank you for getting me past another "Duh!" moment.

FIIC = Field Impact Insulation Class

Online I found a report written by an acoustical consultant in 2004 for someone in Washington state. You can read it at http://www.soundseal.com/pdfs/FIIC%20Pergo%20laminated%20wood%20floor%20over%20redupax+.pdf

The way I read this guy's report, the test subject property had plenty of sound deadening and it still failed to meet the 52db standard.

The report details the testing procedures:
The procedure used in the test was made in conformance with ASTM Designations
E1007-97, “Standard Test Method for Field Measurement of Tapping Machine Impact
Sound Transmission Through Floor-Ceiling Assemblies and Associated Supported
Structures.” The FIIC value was determined using the typical IIC contour from ASTM
Designation E989-89, ”Standard Classification for Determination of Impact Insulation
Class (IIC).”

I think on the next episode of her show Martha Stewart is going to show us how to make a tapping machine.

Fred,

From what the OP quoted of his own covenants, there are no particular materials specified. Whether an owner lays hardwood or carpet, it must meet the 52db standard. Therefore, no matter what materials the owner used his installation is wrong if it cannot pass the 52db test. Please go back and read what the OP quoted from his covenants.

I am not sure what you meant by "The '52 dB' standard seems to give good isolation, but not an excellent block of sound transmission." The standard that must be met is 52db and there are test procedures for quantifying the performance.

My point from posting the online report was this was an example of a typical wood-frame construction (or maybe slightly above average as there was insulation between the floor joists) with high-quality flooring and sound deadening products, and it still failed to meet the 52db standard. That is relevant because it is not likely that the upstairs owner in the OP's case has used any better materials.

You wrote "If the correct materials were used the only cause for action I can see is if there are continued, extreme activities upstairs." This is incorrect as the covenants do not require any specific materials but do require a specific result. Since owner has changed his flooring and the unit below is now complaining (witnessed by the OP), the owner has the burden of proving that his installation meets the noise standard regardless of what materials he used.

Yes, and a "52bd FIIC rating" is established by testing according to ASTM procedures after installation. I have never seen a rating on any of the flooring products I have ever purchased and the results will be a combination of the products, how they were installed, and the structure on which they are installed. Since a manufacturer cannot control how is product is installed or where it is installed any claim that it will meet a noise standard is nonsense.

I'm not saying that our Guidelines are the most accurate or useful, but they were designed by our developer's staff. As noted above, we have no noise problems. in our high rises. Here's more from our ARC Guidelines for hard surface floors in our high rises:

Two factors, which (in combination with other structural and environmental factors) determine a hardwood floor DC rating, are:
1) the kind of hardwood flooring material installed, and
2) the kind of underlayment used.

Examples of materials commonly found in XXXXXXXXX hardwood floor installations are the following:
• KahrsTM laminated plank flooring (sometimes referred to as "engineered")
• TuplexTM Underlayment (a combo foam product consisting of one layer of polystyrene beads layered between two sheets of polyethylene film)
• Quick StepTM laminated plank flooring (sometimes referred to as "laminate") TuplexTM Underlayment
• Cork may also be used if it is a minimum of 3/4 INCH. The same IIC rating of 59 is expected to be
obtained.

Not all hardwood flooring and underlayment combinations will meet the DC 59 standard.
If a contractor specifies the use of something other than the products mentioned above, a product spec sheet from the manufacturer must be supplied with the architectural application showing an IIC rating of 59 or higher.
If a combo foam product or cork will not to be used as an underlayment, it is the homeowner's responsibility to pay a fee for an outside consultant to determine if the installation meets or exceeds the noise requirement of an IIC rating of 59 or higher. The consultant will be selected solely by the Architectural Committee. Please be advised that this may impact the time period a homeowner estimates to complete the installation.

f/y/i: FIIC = Field Impact Insulation Class (FIIC) Test

50dB = a 'hi end' dishwasher

49 dB = a premiun outdoor heat pump @ 3' distance

50dB = a 'factory' harley-davidson exhaust idling @ 5' distance

52dB woud be 1.5 times as loud

see: http://www.pac-intl.com/pdf_test/test_fcs1_dswa_fiic_51_raw_full_report.pdf for what is required to comply with a typical FIIC

people who write CCRs need to consult engineers as well as accountants and lawyers

OOPS

there goes all the profits

> 50dB = a 'hi end' dishwasher

> 49 dB = a premiun outdoor heat pump @ 3' distance

I do not believe that these numbers can be compared with the IIC ratings.

These numbers reflect the sound intensity (relative to a reference, but that's another story). I believe that the IIC ratings are meant to measure attenuation, that is, the decrease in sound intensity due to transmission through the medium.

By the way, perceptual studies show that a 3 dB change is not detectable or barely detectable, and 10 dB is perceived by most people as twice as loud. Yes, the dB scale is logarithmic but so is the ear's response.

Understanding (and measuring) noise is remarkably complex. By the way, when you talk about sound intensity ratings (like the heat pump mentioned above) there is also a frequency weighting. So usually these numbers are denoted dBA, since the "A" scale roughly accounts for the different degree of annoyance caused by different frequencies.