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AmyA1 (Washington)
Posts: 101
Posted:
Our HOA is attempting for the 3rd time to make the quorum for our Annual Meeting. We are down to 4 Board Members (7 required) for the first time in years we have more people running of the Board than the required open positions, but can't get to the vote. We have 499 homes with 51% quorum, 1st meeting 180, 2nd was down to about 160. We also have on the ballet an amendment to the Bylaws to lower the quorum. The board is threatening, per our HOA lawyer, to have the court's take over, which would cost us thousands of dollars... and has even told people to send in blank ballots to simply make quorum. (we accept mail-in, proxy and in person)

I have gone around and talked to people.. asking them to vote. Not sure if anyone else is.. but doing my part.

What I'd like to know.. what can we do if we don't get the quorum at our next meeting? Should the BOD select/elect members so we have enough board members? (which they should of done long ago, we have only had 5 board members for the last yr) I'm not sure who is even acting as our Chairman since she resigned after our last failed meeting.

I am an active member, have been on the board in the past and running again. But we need help and currently nobody on the current board is accepting phone calls.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AmyA1 on 11/11/2013 6:19 AM

I have gone around and talked to people.. asking them to vote. Not sure if anyone else is.. but doing my part.

Rather than asking them to vote, have a handful of blank proxy forms and ask to be named their proxy. This may get more results.

Quote:
Posted By AmyA1 on 11/11/2013 6:19 AM

What I'd like to know.. what can we do if we don't get the quorum at our next meeting?

If there is no quorum, there business can not be conducted. Expecting that you are incorporated as a nonprofit (most Associations are but check to be sure), Title 24 RCW
CORPORATIONS AND ASSOCIATIONS (NONPROFIT)
would apply.

Per RCW 24.03.100 and RCW 24.03.105 specify that existing directors will stay in office until their successor is elected/appointed or until they resign and that, unless your governing documents say otherwise, that vacancies may be filled by a majority vote of the sitting directors.

Now, providing your Board is honorable, if there is no quorum, the board could explain all of this to the members in attendance. Then ask that the members complete their ballots anyway. Explain that the ballots would not be an official vote as not meeting the quorum prevents that from occurring. However, the existing Board can use those ballots as input from the membership when they make appointments to the Board.

This only works if the Board is honorable and those currently sitting are willing to resign so another may take their seat. If anyone isn't willing to resign, then my provided option doesn't work (and only a recall or meeting a quorum could be used to force them out of office).

AmyA1 (Washington)
Posts: 101
Posted:
Great ideas.. if our CC&R's and Bylaws were not so outdated and down right blocking business getting done. They state you can only hold ONE proxy..
Of the 5 members we currently had.. they are holding positions since our first attempt in Sept to hold a meeting. One member (who was our Chairman) had to resign due to family health issues.. I can blame her and she did stay for an extra 2 months.
We are a nonprofit and the Board can elect a replacement.. but they have turned down many that have been interested and have been running with only 5 members for the last year. They keep it just enough to have a quorum of the board. I know many of our members would be very upset if ballots where open with out the meeting being held, so not sure if that would work.
I was Chairmen of the Bylaws committee and we a set of revised Bylaws ready to take to the members since July... just waiting on the Board to make a move. But since we have our limitations they decided to first amend the quorum so it would be easier to pass the complete revised Bylaws.
The board has set up a discussion meeting for members on Thursday, I will bring up these things up.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posted:
AmyA1, at the very least your current Board should invoke RCW 64.38.025 Subsection 3 to ratify your Board's budget. You don't need a quorum of members for that at least.

See RCW 64.38.025 Subsection 3
"Unless at that meeting the owners of a majority of the votes in the association are allocated or any larger percentage specified in the governing documents reject the budget, in person or by proxy, the budget is ratified, whether or not a quorum is present.

We just used it for the 1st time ever. We didn't have a quorum problem. We've had a problem for years of not being able to get a dues increase passed with the budget. Only 57 people showed at the annual meeting but it would have taken over 180 people to show and reject the budget.

Out of the 57 people that showed, only 9 voted FOR the budget and dues increase, with 48 voting AGAINST.

So the budget and dues increase passed.

The grinding and gnashing of teeth was quite a sight.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GnomeX on 11/11/2013 8:31 PM
AmyA1, at the very least your current Board should invoke RCW 64.38.025 Subsection 3 to ratify your Board's budget. You don't need a quorum of members for that at least.

See RCW 64.38.025 Subsection 3
"Unless at that meeting the owners of a majority of the votes in the association are allocated or any larger percentage specified in the governing documents reject the budget, in person or by proxy, the budget is ratified, whether or not a quorum is present.

We just used it for the 1st time ever. We didn't have a quorum problem. We've had a problem for years of not being able to get a dues increase passed with the budget. Only 57 people showed at the annual meeting but it would have taken over 180 people to show and reject the budget.

Out of the 57 people that showed, only 9 voted FOR the budget and dues increase, with 48 voting AGAINST.

So the budget and dues increase passed.

The grinding and gnashing of teeth was quite a sight.

I don't see how 64.38.025 would apply towards a dues increase. The statute seems to only apply towards a budget.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Gnome,

You can't conduct business at a general membership meeting without a quorum present. Therefore, without a quorum, the members would be unable to vote on anything.

Kevin,

Since assessments are determined by the budget, unless the governing documents limit the amount a Board may increase assessments without a membership vote, if the budget calls for higher assessments and the budget is approved (well, not rejected in this case) then the increase in assessments would have been approved.
AmyA1 (Washington)
Posts: 101
Posted:
We have been following that RCW for yrs. The way our Bylaws are set up we have to hold a special meeting in Dec to radify the budget and hold our Annual meeting (election of board members) in Sept.
AmyA1 (Washington)
Posts: 101
Posted:
But Gnome is correct.. I know it doesn't make sense but here it is
RCW 64.38.025
(3) Within thirty days after adoption by the board of directors of any proposed regular or special budget of the association, the board shall set a date for a meeting of the owners to consider ratification of the budget not less than fourteen nor more than sixty days after mailing of the summary. Unless at that meeting the owners of a majority of the votes in the association are allocated or any larger percentage specified in the governing documents reject the budget, in person or by proxy, the budget is ratified, whether or not a quorum is present. In the event the proposed budget is rejected or the required notice is not given, the periodic budget last ratified by the owners shall be continued until such time as the owners ratify a subsequent budget proposed by the board of directors.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Thanks Amy. Now I understand.

The purpose is for the members to have the opportunity to reject the budget. If apathy is high, the budget will always be ratified.
AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304
Posted:
Faced with this situation a few years ago. It came down to a few determined people who went door to door, spoke with homeowners, and collected their proxies and then brought the proxies to the meeting so that a quorum could be established. It was ridiculous but it accomplished the goal. Don't know if my community could ever get away with that now due to the high number of rentals that are the direct result of the housing market crash.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KevinK7 on 11/12/2013 12:26 AM

I don't see how 64.38.025 would apply towards a dues increase. The statute seems to only apply towards a budget.

See this thread and the associated news article. here

The news article doesn't really go into the finer details.

Basically to summarize, the plaintiffs in this case argued that a budget includes not only the expenses but also the dues rate needed to fund those expenses. The defendant (the HOA) argued otherwise, that the dues should be handled separately from the budget. Plaintiffs argued this was ridiculous, that a complete budget includes both expenses and the income necessary to fund those expenses.

The court agreed with the plaintiffs. IE a budget as defined in the statute should include both income(dues) and expenses, be voted on together, and that the HOA bylaws that set the bar of a dues increase to 60% approval of those attending the meeting as null and void since it conflicts with the statute.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 11/12/2013 4:21 AM
Thanks Amy. Now I understand.

The purpose is for the members to have the opportunity to reject the budget. If apathy is high, the budget will always be ratified.

Exactly. Our current attorney works with the Washington Legislature on HOA law and he informed me that was precisely one of the intentions of this statute. That an HOA could still function with an operating budget even if the members are apathetic or worse try to use quorum tricks.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GnomeX on 11/12/2013 2:26 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 11/12/2013 4:21 AM
Thanks Amy. Now I understand.

The purpose is for the members to have the opportunity to reject the budget. If apathy is high, the budget will always be ratified.


Exactly. Our current attorney works with the Washington Legislature on HOA law and he informed me that was precisely one of the intentions of this statute. That an HOA could still function with an operating budget even if the members are apathetic or worse try to use quorum tricks.

My understanding was that budgets and assessments are different. So from where I was coming from essentially the HOA has set assessments and then draft a budget based on their expected revenue. If more is desired, they would first have to raise assessments. Interesting to see the difference in laws between states.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KevinK7 on 11/13/2013 12:44 PM

My understanding was that budgets and assessments are different. So from where I was coming from essentially the HOA has set assessments and then draft a budget based on their expected revenue. If more is desired, they would first have to raise assessments. Interesting to see the difference in laws between states.

Yeah there are many that view it that way. In this view a budget is essentially just projected expenditures. This Washington State statute has even been interpreted that way in the past by many HOAs(including ours) and it wasn't until this recent court case that such a view has been challenged.

In fact, from what I have read of this HOA's appeal, that is precisely what their attorney is arguing, that dues and budgets are two separate things.

Here is the appeals brief of this case.
Appellant's Brief

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Interesting. Personally I agree with the two being separate. While I understand the need to operate and conduct business, I can also see the potential for abuse. My neighborhood had many aspirations despite lacking any legal authority (as ruled by a court). Had this been the case they would have inflicted a lot of harm on the neighborhood. They wanted to build multimillion dollar walls, increase landscaping, purchase land and build a clubhouse, and take over county properties, such as a little "lake.". All this in a decidedly middle-class neighborhood during an economic depression (they believed this would return our property values to boom levels).

They were able to accomplish some of their goals by getting the county to create MSBUs and add improvement costs into our taxes using a minority of approval (the measures failed our internal votes) but with our neighborhood so large (close to 1000 homes), combining budgets and assessments would have allowed the board to accomplish their goals and solidify power before a proper legal challenge could be made (they were very aggressive litigiously).

I think you are in a tough spot being you have all this pre-existing stuff and a membership that is very apathetic and/or ignorant and I could see how such a law could help atleast maintain things.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KevinK7 on 11/13/2013 11:08 PM
Interesting. Personally I agree with the two being separate. While I understand the need to operate and conduct business, I can also see the potential for abuse. My neighborhood had many aspirations despite lacking any legal authority (as ruled by a court). Had this been the case they would have inflicted a lot of harm on the neighborhood. They wanted to build multimillion dollar walls, increase landscaping, purchase land and build a clubhouse, and take over county properties, such as a little "lake.". All this in a decidedly middle-class neighborhood during an economic depression (they believed this would return our property values to boom levels).

They were able to accomplish some of their goals by getting the county to create MSBUs and add improvement costs into our taxes using a minority of approval (the measures failed our internal votes) but with our neighborhood so large (close to 1000 homes), combining budgets and assessments would have allowed the board to accomplish their goals and solidify power before a proper legal challenge could be made (they were very aggressive litigiously).

I think you are in a tough spot being you have all this pre-existing stuff and a membership that is very apathetic and/or ignorant and I could see how such a law could help atleast maintain things.

I know the potential of abuse is very real. However I can also see why the legislature did this and other things (like mandate reserve studies) as many HOAs across the state that were built in the 1970s and 1980s are facing severe problems due to not properly funding reserves on assets that require infrequent maintenance (like roads). In the above HOA's case, it left dues artificially low for decades and according to one attorney, only funded its reserves at 7%. This particular HOA is on the side of a small mountain and now has a failing culvert system and many members against dues increases are wanting the County government to basically bail them out by taking over its culvert system and 50+ miles of private roads. Not gonna happen.

They better pray their area doesn't get hit with huge snow storms before they can raise enough revenue to save their culvert system. This happened a few years ago in another area of the county that did not have any culvert system and it resulted in major mudslides. The county petitioned the federal govt for disaster relief. Luckily it happened in a sparsely populated area. This particular HOA is densely populated and should mudslides happen there, people could literally die from their lack of sensibility. They want to save a buck by keeping dues low with no sense of possible consequences.

We face the same thing in our HOA. People voted down dues increases for decades, we have lost virtually all recreational amenities and are down to just management costs overhead, insurance, couple of green belts, street lights, roads, and an empty leaking clubhouse. Same thing. People begging us to petition the County to take over our roads so they don't have to pay for them. Not gonna happen, the County has no obligation to take over our private roads.

And the icing on the cake, 3 weeks ago, one of the major pushers to keep the dues low is now threatening to sue the HOA for failure to maintain the common areas including the roads. He even submitted a motion 3 years ago at the annual meeting to LOWER the dues. Then after making his legal threats he then went on a tirade that the Board was wasting money on re-roofing the Clubhouse to stop the water leaks. So essentially he wants to starve the HOA of revenue, turn around and sue the HOA for failing to maintain the common areas, and even object when we do spend money on maintaining remaining common areas like the Clubhouse. This guy is something to behold. Also he is one of the ring leaders that wants to disband the HOA.

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