Sexual Offender Visiting Rights

So everyone is aware of his situation and knows he is a sex offender? So what is the worry about? You know not to take candy or pet his puppies... Let lying dogs lie and leave alone. The HOA shouldn't even be involved approving renters. Let the law do it's job if he violates.

If you are allowing him to be on the premises as a visitor, then I would say that he is not a visitor if the person he is visiting is not home. Who is letting him in the development if she is not home? A visitor should not be able to enter the development unless the person he is visiting is there to let him in.

Renee,

You have cut this guy way too much slack.

You said he was charged six years ago but passed the background check when he moved in three years ago. This is no surprise as most private background checks are crap and also because the legal system does not consider a person to be convicted until he has been sentenced. But you are not a court of law. This guy bamboozled you into allowing him in. He rented in the bad-faith belief that you would not find out about his sex crimes.

Somewhere along the line you did learn of his prosecution and failed to act. You let an accused sex offender live in your midst until the court found him guilty. Then you finally acted. But you allowed his spouse to remain and he "visits" more often than some of us normally spend at home. It is rather obvious that neither he nor his wife had any intention to remove him from your premises. The wife's sole tenancy is just a ruse to allow him to continue to reside there.

This guy has found a bunch of suckers. Not only can you not summon the will to boot this guy out once and for all, your board cannot even find the number for your association's attorney.

You ask about "accommodation." For what? A renter who concealed his pending criminal prosecution? A renter who elicted sympathies with false stories about cancer? A spouse who stood by silently while he told these stories and then lets him continue to live there?

I am curious as to just what this guy and his wife have to do to get your board off its butt?

I think this is definitely a attorney-needed situation. The matter sounds complex and may include details not know to everyone. So this individual was found guilty but have been awaiting sentencing for three years and living with his wife? It also sounds like the duo may have found a loophole of sorts. Where does he go at night? I also find it hard to dictate the terms of a visitor.

And not to sound like I'm defending a sex offender but you may risk a costly discrimination suit. My neighborhood made a covenant a few years back that banned sex-offenders from even ownership. I feared that such a covenant could open us up to more financial risk. I think the focus should be placed more on the law and if there are enforceable covenants. The wife doesn't seem to be the problem and neither does her husband. I think the problem stems from the lack of some covenants or rules.

Melissa,

Although I'm inclined to agree with you, without access to the OP's governing documents we have no idea if there is something that may apply. Without the knowledge and understanding of any statute other than the COA/HOA/Corporate laws we are all familiar with, we honestly don't know if a law is being violated or not. Without knowledge of the neighborhood the Association is in (is it near a school, playgrounds, parks, etc.) we don't know if that may make a statute applicable or not (as the OP said the individual is registered as a sex offender).

The OP is concerned. The OP would prefer to prevent the individual from being in the development. The OP may or may not have the support of the rest of the Board or the rest of the membership. It is clear that the OP wants to do something now rather than later.

Therefore, since the OP is looking for what action they can take, the only "good" advice we can really offer is to consult with a local attorney to see what options, if any, they may legally have.

Quite a variety of opinions and responses. Thank you for the comments.

To all with advice to seek legal counsel ... yes, that will be done before any formal action is taken. I simply posted to see if anyone had experienced a situation of this nature as it is a off the grid, per se. Below is my response to questions and facts as I know them (pseudonyms used):

* CLYDE's crime was discovered in 2007
* August, 2010, CLYDE was indicted by a Federal grand jury and the case was sealed - he posted bail and required to wear an ankle monitor
* October, 2010, CLYDE and BONNIE moved into community as renters - background checks came back clear and their lease application was approved by BOD
* July, 2013, CLYDE's pending trial and crime was made public - first time anyone in community knew anything
* September, 2013, CLYDE was convicted by a Federal judge - bench trial
* CLYDE remains free on bail pending sentencing date, December, and a motion has already been filed by his attorney for him to remain on bail during the appeal process - not sure how appeal process works as CLYDE has admitted to the charges
* CLYDE's conviction required him to register with the State as a sexual offender, however, his record will not show on the database until he has served time and is released
* The community is across the street from a park and Little League park and a school close by - seems none of this matters though since he is on bail pending sentencing - as the State laws are understood and not an HOA issue
* October, 2013, his landlord was served notice that CLYDE could not live in the community due to his felony - all processed through attorney
* Mid-October CLYDE moved out and is sleeping elsewhere

* Our HOA requires an application for sale/lease - attorney approved - since his indictment was SEALED the background check provided no data on his crime
* Regardless of the crime or when it was committed, our governing documents state that convicted felons cannot live in our community - and yes, we can do that in Florida and we can deny an application for sale/lease with no reason given-obviously with legal caution and review - attorney approved
* BONNIE has re-applied to live in the unit as sole occupant
* BONNIE allows CLYDE to visit her unit each day during the time that she is not at home
* CLYDE chooses to park in visitor's parking when present on property - no one is quite sure his reason as the unit has a four car driveway -- and for reasons he chooses, he parks in visitor parking areas far away from the unit and drive different cars
* BONNIE's lease application is "in process" for approval
* Quick resolve to this issue based on community feelings, conflict this is creating and legal opportunity, many feel we should deny her application and move on.
* Our attorney *is* being consulted on this new "visiting" issue

...and there you have it. I did my best to include all of the facts and details.

Renee:

I am sorry for the troubles you are having. IMO people convicted of such crimes should expect to be treated differently whether the law permits it or not. And Yes contrary to what some seem to think you have the legal right under your documents to ban certain people from your property. I have seen this before.

Now my problem would not be with Clyde or Bonnie. My problem would be with the unit owner. Not sure who they are or what sort of relationship they have with your Board but perhaps a private conversation expressing the community's concern about a person convicted of sexual crimes against children might influence their willingness to reup with Bonnie.

Over the years I have had a few come to Jesus "talks" with owners and expressed the pros and cons of the path they are on. The cons in those cases far outwieghted the pros. That was made clear. In most cases we came to an understanding.

If not then do not approve Boonie for a lease renewal. No reason to give grounds for the denial simply thumbs down. I would not wish to be responsible IF some abuse were to occur and it happened because you failed to act.

Good Luck.

Sorry but isn't the word here "CONVICTED FELON"??? Which means they have been convicted of a crime in the past and have served their time. They just lose their right to vote in a US Election and to own guns for the most part. If they are on probation or other type of release, as a sex-offender they would have to give neighborhood notice. However, I did not see that mentioned here. Which must mean that he has put in his time served.

Believe me, I am all against sex offenders convicted or not convicted. However, I also have to recognize the law. No matter what your HOA documents say, they can NOT override local, state, and federal laws. Which to me is what is going on here is trying to make your HOA rules override the reality of what those existing laws are. Granite they are weak in many areas, but the HOA can't override them.

As far as I see it, this guy is a tenant. He has no voting rights or say in the HOA's business. He just visits and goes on. People know what he is and should have the common sense of a billy goat to stay away. So stop wasting the HOA's money on this issue and live outside the HOA bubble. This guy is convicted, recognized as such, and people just need to leave him alone. Let the owner deal with the issue NOT the HOA.

Get the tar and feathers ready and ride him out of the HOA on a rail.

I have zero tolerance for anyone who abuses a child but as much as we might want to take the law into our own hands and take care of it. He or his wife don't appear from what the OP posted be in violation of the Covenant. The Covenant the OP posted said: Our governing documents clearly state that anyone with a felony cannot live in our community.

From her description of his actions, he's not living there but visiting. Note what the violation is: "living there" not visiting there. Now we can all agree that he is scum but you can't (or shouldn't) write rules or amend Covenants over one violator. Why you ask. Because then the Board would need to do background checks on each and every visitor of each and every homeowner, each and every time they visit

Besides better the scumbag you know than the harmless looking "friendly" neighbor. Remember Dennis Rader also known as the BTK Killer? He was a member of the local Church and had been elected president of the Congregation Council. He was also a Cub Scout leader. Oh, and until they caught and convicted him would have been eligible to live in the OP's HOA.

My understanding is that sex offenders can not be within x feet of the areas you describe the Association is near. Of course every State has different laws. Perhaps contacting the officers who worked on the case can result in some assistance/guidance on the issue.


That sounds like the easiest and it would resolve the issue.

In Florida, you are correct, there are rules and restrictions about where a sex offender can live. I will post an important part of the entire statute, and ask if you have a playground in your development? A school bus stop? How far exactly is the nearest school?
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/856.022

Reality check: If your NOT talking to your children about talking to strangers, then you are failing to do your job as a parent. Sorry, going to tell it as it is. It's just fear mongering to keep harping on this issue. The person is being on survelliance. People are aware of his situation. If they are not, then find out your laws on public notification requirements in your state or local area.

Sex offenders cover a range of situations and NOT just children. You can be convicted as a sex offender by being 18 and dating a 17 year old. A sex offender can be someone that had inappropriate contact with an adult. Sex offenders are NOT all "Pedophiles" and usually act upon opportunity. Which most likely the victim or victim in this case had some kind of intimate relationship of some kind as family friend or family. Sex offender's typically are not strangers. They are someone you know whether or not they have been convicted.

My advice is to follow your STATE and LOCAL laws on how to handle such issues. Your HOA is not protected by some internal force of laws. It has to obey the ones everyone else does when it comes to crime and crime committers. This guy sounds like he is on probation and following his rules pertaining to it. So use your tar for roof repairs and keep your chickens feather's on... Talk to your children and make sure they know not to talk to strangers with candy..

Melissa I would suggest to you going bck and read through the posts on this thread. This POS is not on probation. So please gets your facts straight before you harp on opinions that do not apply to this case.

And more than likely we don't need lectures about what you see as proper parenting. This mentally disturbed POS is working around the system. The legal system, the HOA ducuments and seems like everything else.

In the real world GPS monitoring guarantees nothing.

If on this Board I would vote not to approve the lease of the wife.

Unfortunately, there are times when a person can remain free on bond pending an appeal, and this may very well happen. He may be appealing the sentence including sex offender probation, which is life long. You are correct, GPS is only as good as the folks that are monitoring the system, and how quickly they can respond to whatever restrictions they place the defendant under. GPS is not foolproof. A for-profit GPS company (which some counties in Florida use) has no dog in the fight and actually will lose money if the person on GPS violates and is put back into jail to wait out the appeal. Just like a gated community gives residents a false sense of security, so does GPS on a criminal.

Allison I would agree GPS and the orders of protection issued by the courts are in the real world worth ZIP.

If the person involved chooses to do so they can get around either.

IMO anyone who today relies on OUR legal system to protect them and their families is a fool. Just read the local papers.

So to sit back and HOPE the legal system works to live in denial that the criminal justice system will in the end do what needs to done is foolishness.

I would do whatver necessary to have his man off the property along with his wife. Now you migh have to get a bit dirty and stretch the rules or creae your own but circumstances require that sometimes.

MelissaP1, this crime consists of adults who abuse children by creating pornography using children and distribute this child pornography to sick individuals who get off on this sort of thing. This is not a victimless crime. Please do some research on this before giving any opinions. If you think the sickness stops once his computer images are taken away, think again. He will replace video with live children.

Child porn is illegal. Consenting adults partaking in nudist beliefs is not. Big difference. CHILD PORNOGRAPHY!!!! Why do you minimize this? Besides murder, child abuse is about the most heinous crime there is. Child porn begins and ends with child abuse.

Comparison of child pornography and adults choosing to display whatever they choose, on the internet or at the beach, is a dichotomy. I am stunned that you replied with that … and then commented, “Seriously…” Please reference the replies from JonD1 and AllisonD.

“So this is a computer crime? Not a real life he did something to a child?” MelissaP1 think about what you said ….

Is there a rating system you place on the degree of the actions because it was a “computer crime”? Is it more acceptable to you because it was not “real life”? Do you not think that the children in the videos are less victimized because it was a “computer crime” and not “real life”? How do you know CLYDE stops at merely viewing online? None of us do.

To use your words: “My concern is for those who are NOT convicted sex offenders or you know about yet.” I agree and that is where good parenting does come into play. CLYDE’s issues and enjoyment with child pornography is known. What is not known is whether or not he carries it out in “real life.” In a deed restricted community where we do have our own governing rules and we can be sued, there is a certain responsibility to ensure we are doing and have done all we can to maintain safety for all. Advice on this was the intent of the original post. I do not live in Alabama, but your profile shows that you do, so maybe things are different in your state.

Child pornography laws are in place for a reason; to protect children. ANY type or form of abuse toward a child is perpetuating child abuse on every level. There is no rating system of “computer” vs. “real.” I am not addressing the HOA legality issues here; merely replying to what I felt was a ridiculous comparison you made of nudists vs. child pornography.

According to what has been shared in court documents, forensic investigation of his computer showed …
he had a myspace account where he claimed to be 17 years old (he is 57 years old) and stated that he “loved to trade pics.” Some of his online friends were as young as 12. Yes, you can go down the parenting route on this. Got it, so please do not comment as we all know your opinion. …videos of young boys exposing themselves, children tied up, videos of 7 year olds engaging in sex, videos of boys as young as 5 years old tied up and wincing in pain from abuse and images of sexually abused children. The courts stated that the images he had in possession were sadistic and masochistic.

You can jury your opinion; however, I would prefer not to know your response. The Federal judge convicted him on all accounts for what he was *caught* doing.

The HOA knows of his crime and conviction. CLYDE has been evicted from living in our community, however, comes and goes every day. So what liability would HOA have for doing nothing and sticking their heads in the sand should CLYDE choose to carry out “real life” actions while on bond, pending sentencing and appeal process? We realize this is a murky legal area. We are consulting legal advice prior to any action. My original post was to see if anyone had experience with this type of situation and could provide advice. There have been many very educated responses and advice that is appreciated.

Renee, please keep us posted. This situation effects us all.

I agree. It is not an HOA issue.

That is your OPINION. It is not reality and the law. If someone is selling drugs in the neighborhood, you call the police to report it. You don't call your next door neighbor or BOD member. The HOA has to act within local, state, and Federal laws. The last I checked selling drugs was illegal on all those levels.... Selling drugs call the police and let them follow the law to catch the persons in the act.

Let's get this straight... You do NOT call the police if someone violates a HOA rule do you? No you call the HOA. Let me give an example: The HOA has a rule that you can't leave your garbage can out on Tuesdays. Do you call the police when you see one out on the street on Tuesday? No. That is a violation of a HOA rule. Now, if that garbage can comes up missing? Do you call the HOA to report the city provided garbage can was stolen? No. You call the police.

I hate to bring up the Trayvon case but it is a prime example of what mistakes a HOA can make enforcing laws they have no business doing. The HOA was funding and had a neighborhood watch. One of the HOA members shot and killed someone they suspected was or had committed a crime. He was arrested and charged. Later we know not found guilty and released. However, the victim's family SUED the HOA. Which meant that ALL the members of that HOA was responsible for the actions of the shooter. Does that seem right or fair to you? No.

If the HOA had NOT taken on the responsibility of enacting laws by it's armed or unarmed members on a voluntary basis, the HOA case would be non-existent. It would have simply been a Neighborhood Watch member who shot and killed a suspected criminal. The HOA had nothing to do with it all as they did not fund the volunteer community effort.

You as a HOA member are not responsible for the crimes that occur in your HOA. If you want to be, go ahead, pay for it by hiring lawyers and filing lawsuits. It's your dime. As far as I am concerned, if someone is committing a crime in my HOA, I call the police and have my tax dollars go to work for me instead.

Your opinion does not translate to reality. The issue still is NOT a HOA responsibility or something it is to provide. Safety is your priority. Not everyone else.

A rental contract is between the owner and the tenant. The rental contracts have to regulate that. Make sure background checks are to be done by the owner and in the reason a lease can be terminated. Otherwise Tenant rights kick in and not even the owner can do a thing about that.

The HOA can not control who becomes a member. It does not approve sales contracts. The bank loan has to be done with that restriction. Someone pays cash? HOA can not say a word.

If you do ever have a criminal move in... Most likely they are a renter and not owner. Which means they still have no voting rights or involvement in the HOA activity. So why would it matter?

Now your HOA may restrict one from running on the board with a criminal history. However, that has to be written into your documents.

Sorry people but a HOA does NOT protect you from reality and natural disasters. It does provide you a nice looking place to live in.

John: Hello

Jon: Hello John, this is Jon.

John: How are you Jon?

Jon: I am good and you John?

John: All is well Jon.

Jon: Glad to hear that John. The reason I called is I think someone is dealing drugs from one of our homes.

John: Wow. What do you suggest?

Jon: We gather the BOD and discuss it.

John: Do you think if they are in that trade they might have guns?

Jon: Does that matter?

John: Are you nuts. Fu@!% the BOD, call the police. Do you need the number?

I understand/agree a BOD doing their best but, but, but....

Just my opinion.

Considering that fines can't be levied out of thin air... You got lucky. A smart owner would know a HOA can't just fine you without a fining schedule in place and agreed by all. It would be nice if one could. The truth is that HOA's can't lien or foreclose for fines in most states. Which makes fines pretty much useless to enforce. The reason most HOA's get by with issuing fines is because people are under the impression (urban legend) HOA's can do this.

It isn't like my HOA wasn't full of sex offenders or thieves. We had a kids who would routinely break into homes and other crimes. One of them was a board member's son. Which I caught red handed stealing a cab ride and me and the cabby chased him through the neighborhood. People smoked weed in the clubhouse bathrooms. Numerous other issues occurred as well. So I am not deaf, dumb, and blind to this issue. I even created a neighborhood watch program in our neighborhood.

So my advice comes from being in charge of a neighborhood watch program with the police, taking criminology courses in college, and experience living in a bad neighborhood. Wish it could be that one could run a bad element out of their HOA and neighborhood. It's just not that easy without breaking the law yourself. Hence, why I am trying to prevent a huge expensive mistake in trying to do the right thing... I am sorry but it's best to use the law to it's fullest even if it doesn't seem to be working.

Ahh, but the Board acted within it's authority and fined on the issues they could fine on.
The Board explained to the member that based on the actions of the tenants, the fines would likely continue until the tenants were no longer tenants.

This is acting within the Boards authority and I support those actions.

The OP never indicated that association covenants/rules or regs were being violated. If they are, then this would be an option for them. If they are not, then the Board simply doesn't have the authority until a violation happens or governing documents are amended.

My issue is that when a Board amends documents to go after one individual, they often write the proposed change without thinking about how it may affect others (hence by examples of church groups and girl scouts).