OCR copy of the bylaws

Started by KellyT • 22 replies • 2109 views

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KellyT (Ga)
Posts: 25

Posted:

If you take a copy of your HOA bylaws and scan the document into a more readable text using OCR does that mean they've been amended? The bylaw document we have in our HOA files is a faxed copy from the original property manager and developer. We are now resident run. The document is readable but, there are words circled and pages are dark and paragraphs are angled. It is available to all homeowners upon request.
So, the reason for my question: We have a web-site for the homeowners, we scanned the document and placed them on-line in a clearer format, thinking no harm. It's a better copy. Anyway, now there is a homeowner who insists they have been amended, that the board amended them with out a vote of the members and that we are participating in illegal activities. What? There were also a lot of personal attacks against one of our members too. We explained to them that nothing was changed, nothing amended but, they keep insisting we are breaking the law and want them removed.

Signed,

Really???

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Kelly

If you know the documents are the same (and be sure), then throw the ball back in the complainers court. Ask them to show what is different.

I commend your association for cleaning them up and posting them online. In the long run it will prove to be a great move and save your association a lot of aggravation. Nothing to hide. We are open. We are above board.

Bravo. Well done.

KellyT (Ga)
Posts: 25

Posted:

The only thing different would be the font. Thank you John for recognizing my efforts. We are about to have a new election and having a cleaner copy will only help the board and the homeowners when re-evaluating them.

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

KellyT,

I assume you are now working with a searchable Microsoft WORD document.

When I did the similar for our Documents, depending upon the document – some of ours were originally typed using a manual typewriter on legal size paper - I did the following:

1. Made sure that when converted the scanned document type font exactly matched the original type font

2. Made sure that any typos that were in the original were NOT corrected.

3. Made sure that any strange indentations remained exactly as in the original.

4. Made sure that all scanned copy, the page numbers, and all the content on any particular page, exactly matched the original. Used “page breaks” as needed. Fiddled, played with line spacing and/or font size (shrinking, enlarging by a “point or two”) as needed to accomplish.

The ORIGINAL and the SCANNED should look exactly (almost), page-by-page. (That should eliminate anyone “saying” that any sort of amendment took place – which of course did not happen, based on what you wrote).

5. Depending on the Document, and where it could be done without changing the “look of the Document”, I added “footers” containing information such “This is scanned copy of the Recorded (if applicable) Original” Scanned by: Kxxxxx Txxxx, on Date (Month day year),etc.

If I could not work that info into a footer, then I found “space” to add that information on the cover page.

6. Also it might help of you added, probably on the cover page that, as applicable, a statement that “The original of this Document is filed in the land records etc, etc. Book, Page, etc.” Adding a note with that info should dispel any thoughts that something “got changed”

7. If there were any signatures on any of the pages, I scanned those in.

8. Also, since you are being questioned, perhaps add someplace, if any differences are found, it is a result of using OCR Software to convert, and is inadvertent, and as such, if any differences are found please notify Kxxxx Txxxxx, so they can be corrected.
-------------------

I know, a lot of work if you do as I suggest, and as I as did, but in the end well worth it. I have searched, cut and pasted into Memos, I can't even remember how may times. And of course made printer copies on request.

PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708

Posted:

Why not obtain certified copies of the document?

How are sure what you have is the same as on file with your local gov't agencies?

Maybe it is available online and you can just provide a link.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KellyT on 10/26/2013 2:37 PM
If you take a copy of your HOA bylaws and scan the document into a more readable text using OCR does that mean they've been amended? The bylaw document we have in our HOA files is a faxed copy from the original property manager and developer. We are now resident run. The document is readable but, there are words circled and pages are dark and paragraphs are angled. It is available to all homeowners upon request.
So, the reason for my question: We have a web-site for the homeowners, we scanned the document and placed them on-line in a clearer format, thinking no harm. It's a better copy. Anyway, now there is a homeowner who insists they have been amended, that the board amended them with out a vote of the members and that we are participating in illegal activities. What? There were also a lot of personal attacks against one of our members too. We explained to them that nothing was changed, nothing amended but, they keep insisting we are breaking the law and want them removed.

Signed,

Really???

The online copies of our documents contain a disclaimer that they are not to be construed as "official" copies of the documents. They are verbatim copies for reference only; the format may be different. This disclaimer also tells homeowners where and how they can obtain official copies.

OCR software is not perfect. When I converted our documents to HTML for uploading onto our site I painstakingly went through each document to correct any OCR errors. The process took me several weekends.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

May I point out something here? By-laws are INTERNAL documents of the HOA. They are NOT required to be filed anywhere but with the HOA itself. There is nothing "illegal" about having them available in electronic form and available. If they are that bad, then I suggest you follow the rules dictated IN the documents on how to change and modify them. Some require a special meeting and 75% of the members vote to change them. Read them to find out what it takes to rewrite yours. I am not saying they aren't necessary to have. By-laws typically fill in the blanks of the CC&R's. The CC&R's are more of an "Outline" of the HOA and the by-laws the book.

Now if your talking about Covenants and Restrictions (CC&R's) those are indeed legal documents. They are on file at your local courthouse. They go with your deed and are your restrictions to that deed. The by-laws may sometimes be filed alongside them but not required. I'd suggest going to the court house records department and getting a copy there.

Often people confuse the By-laws with the CC&R's. I want to make sure that has not happened here. There are differences between the two. You also should have "Articles of Incorporation" documents. That is what incorporates your HOA. Those are available at the STATE level.

Another document that may be around is the Architectural Control documents or ARC. That document involves the outside appearances of the homes. Those are internal to the HOA as well. However, there are a few HOA's that only have those or some that do not have any at all. May want to find out about that. There would be reference in your documents to a "ARC" committee to find out if there are indeed a set of ARC documents.

Former HOA President

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

If you take a copy of your HOA bylaws and scan the document into a more readable text using OCR does that mean they've been amended?

If no text has been changed, and the document is the same word for word, it has not been amended. It is exactly the same. Amending would mean changing something. The font doesn't matter, nor if you printed it on colored paper, etc. It's the words that matter.

FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927

Posted:

>If you take a copy of your HOA bylaws and scan the document into a more readable text using OCR does that mean they've been amended?

Of course not. However-

Good practice would be to describe the document as an OCR version of the original, and to state that in the even of any inconsistencies that the original version rules.

Also- why not also post the scanned original as a .pdf?

You might want to remind the complainer of the actual dictionary definition of the word "amend."

KellyT (Ga)
Posts: 25

Posted:

People DO confuse the Bylaws and CC&R's often and on top of that don't even bother to read them. I have located all the documents in our files and with the register of deeds. Thank you Melissa.

KellyT (Ga)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Well done EllieD! Thank you for all the useful information.

KellyT (Ga)
Posts: 25

Posted:

SteveM9,

That's what I thought. Hey, what about crayon? wink

KellyT (Ga)
Posts: 25

Posted:

I agree. Thank you, FredS7.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Kelly,

We actually make pdf copies of the documents.

When we lost some originals, we obtained copies from the courthouse. We did clean these up but, as John suggested, we made darn sure that the original and cleaned up version were the exact same.

I agree with John, have the member specify what sections they believe are amended. It is possible that they are original owners and are looking at an older document that was amended at some point in time and the member just doesn't recall.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/27/2013 7:27 AM
May I point out something here? By-laws are INTERNAL documents of the HOA. They are NOT required to be filed anywhere but with the HOA itself.

Melisa and her one size fits all answers. They are not required to be filed except when the CC&R's require it (ours do) or it is required by state law (Ohio's does), check your CC&R's AND state your statutes to see if filing is required where you live.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Oops that should be (AND your state statutes)

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 10/27/2013 4:04 PM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/27/2013 7:27 AM
May I point out something here? By-laws are INTERNAL documents of the HOA. They are NOT required to be filed anywhere but with the HOA itself.

In VA, Condominiums (COAs) must file the Bylaws with the CC&Rs as a deed restriction.
However, HOA's do not need to file the Bylaws.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 10/27/2013 5:33 AM

OCR software is not perfect. When I converted our documents to HTML for uploading onto our site I painstakingly went through each document to correct any OCR errors. The process took me several weekends.

I used to use an OCR software product that had been developed in France. It came with my American-made scanner. When it found words or characters that it did not recognize, the software would revert to French. I had to read the results very carefully as many words had been spelled with that French character that looks like a collision between the letter C and the numeral 5.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Respond by asking which law is being broken and what has been amended.

JH3 (Maryland)
Posts: 67

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/27/2013 7:27 AM
May I point out something here? By-laws are INTERNAL documents of the HOA. They are NOT required to be filed anywhere but with the HOA itself. There is nothing "illegal" about having them available in electronic form and available. If they are that bad, then I suggest you follow the rules dictated IN the documents on how to change and modify them. Some require a special meeting and 75% of the members vote to change them. Read them to find out what it takes to rewrite yours. I am not saying they aren't necessary to have. By-laws typically fill in the blanks of the CC&R's. The CC&R's are more of an "Outline" of the HOA and the by-laws the book.

Now if your talking about Covenants and Restrictions (CC&R's) those are indeed legal documents. They are on file at your local courthouse. They go with your deed and are your restrictions to that deed. The by-laws may sometimes be filed alongside them but not required. I'd suggest going to the court house records department and getting a copy there.

Often people confuse the By-laws with the CC&R's. I want to make sure that has not happened here. There are differences between the two. You also should have "Articles of Incorporation" documents. That is what incorporates your HOA. Those are available at the STATE level.

Another document that may be around is the Architectural Control documents or ARC. That document involves the outside appearances of the homes. Those are internal to the HOA as well. However, there are a few HOA's that only have those or some that do not have any at all. May want to find out about that. There would be reference in your documents to a "ARC" committee to find out if there are indeed a set of ARC documents.

Careful. It depends on the state. Maryland Requires every association document to be filed with the courts, Articles, CCRs, Bylaws, ARCs, Rules & Regs, Policies, MOUs, etc.

CCRs can be very specific, not all CCRs are outlines. Bylaws are definitely not "the book." Both documents are very important.

Not all associations have Articles of Incorporation - so that is entirely elective and not something you SHOULD have.

ARC filings, again, depend on the state.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JH3 on 11/06/2013 9:06 PM
Not all associations have Articles of Incorporation

MAY be true -

BUT -

If your association is incorporated (and many are) articles of incorporation (or something similar) are likely required to be filed with the Secretary of your state.

Easy enough to check. Many states now allow you to search for them online at a Secretary of State's website.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JH3 on 11/06/2013 9:06 PM

Careful. It depends on the state. Maryland Requires every association document to be filed with the courts, Articles, CCRs, Bylaws, ARCs, Rules & Regs, Policies, MOUs, etc.

JH,

Can you cite where that is located?

I saw the Maryland requirement for the Bylaws to be filed if the Association is covered under the condominium act but I didn't see such language in the homeowners act.

I was also unable to locate the requirement in either act for Resolutions (rules/regs) to be filed with the State. I expect that I missed it so I'd appreciate the assist.

RonW7 (Ohio)
Posts: 122

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KellyT on 10/26/2013 2:37 PM
If you take a copy of your HOA bylaws and scan the document into a more readable text using OCR does that mean they've been amended?

I would say no.

I've done this myself before I was even on the board because I suddenly found myself looking at the by-laws quite frequently. I put a lot of time into converting the paper copies into a PDF. Not only is it text-searchable, but it has a table of contents where you can click each item in the table and be taken to that part of the by-laws. It's pretty nice.

When I became HOA president, I sent the PDF out to all residents and advised them that this is not an official document, that it is to be used only as a reference to the original. This means that, if anyone needs to question something, they can look it up in the PDF first, but then validate what they've read in the faxed copies. The reason why I advised this is because our paper copies are pretty lousy with ink spots and facsimile/copy artifacts. The OCR program I used was unable to decipher adversely affected text, so I had to proofread the entire thing and make corrections to the best of my ability. It's entirely possible that I could have interpreted a word or two incorrectly which could be interpreted at making amendments. A disclaimer at the very top of the electronic document should cover you here.

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