Antenna installlation restriction

Hi folks, I have a question regarding installing antenna.

I have a balcony (exclusive use) on a second floor condo. I put up an antenna to receive OTA signal. Previously, I mounted it on the rail of the balcony, and surely I got a letter.

So now, I set up a chair, and mounted antenna on the chair. I also put a lot of heavy books on the chair. The antenna is pretty light (http://www.amazon.com/ANT751-Quality-Durable-Compact-Outdoor/dp/B0024R4B5C/ref=sr_sp-btf_title_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1380575931&sr=8-4&keywords=antenna), so in this way, it would never fall. The mounting is also pretty good. I put my antenna and chair entirely within the balcony.

Now HOA sends me another letter, insisting that I need to mount antenna on a "free standing pole", not on the chair. Are they legitimate to require this? Can I fight back? I am really frustrated. I don't want to get a stupid pole or something.

If needed, I can share a picture.

This can be a complex issue. I would suggest that you start by reading the real FCC rules (law):

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule

Your association can establish it's own rules that are consistent with the FCC law and the latitude that this law gives to associations. You should request a written copy of your associations rules in this regard. Absent any legitimate rules, then you may be OK if you do not violate the FCC rules. If the association feels that there is a safety issue due to your "installation" that may not appear to be secure, then your setup may be denied on that basis. For example, can a wind storm blow your antenna off of the balcony?

Jim

Hi Jim,

That's my understanding too. I think the only point they can possibly make is safety. But honestly, it won't really fall. If there's a windstorm strong enough to blow away my antenna, it'll definitely blow away other stuff on other tenant's balcony, such as plants etc.

I think the true reason is that they might not like the appearance of the way I put it up, but they can't really say about the appearance because of FCC rule. I really don't know how to get a free standing pole, without putting some heavy/clumsy stuff to secure it. So frustrating.

Thanks,

Hengzhou

Right, your HOA rules do not, as you know, permit you to attach anything to your balcony rail, ceiling, wall or floor. This is a very common rule and is to prevent water penetration into the building.

Our rules also state that balconies must be nice-looking and clean. They cannot be"unsightly." I know--"unsightly" is a matter of definition and personal taste sometimes. We are twin high rise twin towers so many of us can easily see many balconies of the other tower.

For me, a permanent view of a chair with a stack of old books on it would be unsightly. We only permit the erection of freestanding items, e.g., tripods.

HOAs can, indeed, make rules about the appearance of balconies/patios/decks.

Well, Hengzhou, you'd better read your HOA's CC&Rs and its Rules & Regulations for the details about what's permitted on the balconies. Since our HOA doesn't allow laundry or beach towels draped on the rails, we would't allow curtains.

But your rules may be different. Your landlord or his property mgr. should have given you copies of the documents mentioned above.

ABSOLUTELY FALSE!

You need to read the OTARD rules!

If you take the time to read the case decisions of the FCC (there are links on the FCC website) you will learn that the FCC is very adept at determining when the motivation behind HOA rules is really anesthetic when the rule claims to be otherwise.

All this person needs to do is file a petition with the FCC (free). Based on what the OP has posted, most likely the association will be shot down.

Bruce, thank you. I will file a petition with FCC.

Hengzhou

Hengzhou before you file a petition with the FCC might I suggest you go your local building supply place, buy a empty five gallon bucket, a bag of redi-mix and a piece of pipe. Fill the bucket with the prepared redi-mix, place the pipe in the center, making sure it is straight, let it set and viola you have a free standing antenna pole.

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for referring the link to me. I didn't find any particular interesting info in it, were you trying to point to me something? Thank you very much in advance!

Hengzhou

Hengzhou, you'll have to get a 90* (degree) elbow and another short piece of pipe but it can be done. Talk to the people at the hardware store and explain what you need it for, pipe comes in all sizes and strengths and they can help you get what will work best for you.

Your HOA can make any rule it wants to. That doesn't mean it will be enforceable.

Again, don't use statements like "if your neighbors can't see your balcony." That's a definite tip-off to the FCC that the real motivation is aesthetic which the FCC prohibits.

If a balcony is an exclusive use area the OTARD rules prohibit many restrictions whereas others may be allowed. For example, restrictions prohibiting drilling holes into walls may be permitted. Restrictions on mounting antennas on railings may or may not be permitted. For example, if an antenna is mounted on a balcony railing in such a manner that it hangs over the outside (into the area over the common area), a rule prohibiting this would be permitted. However, if the antenna is mounted on a railing so that it lies entirely within the exclusive use area, a rule prohibiting such an installation might not be permitted. Also, the association cannot require advance approval to determine if the antenna complies with its rules or not. The association must state in advance that "you can mount it here but not there" or, "you can mount it this way but not that way."

The OTARD rules are very complicated. While much can be learned from reading the Q&A on the FCC's website, one needs to read the case decisions to understand how the FCC really interprets and applies the OTARD rules.

For Hengzhou, I would suspect that mounting an antenna on a chair wouldn't be very safe. There are tripods with short masts that are made specifically for that purpose that are much safer.

But don't call the FCC today. They're closed.

Hengzhou, Tim's first post and Glen's & Brian's are good ideas.

With all due respect, Bruce, HOAs with common area or exclusive use common areas may have rules that prevent water penetration into the common area walls, balcony decks, etc. That's why such devices cannot be attached to a railing by penetrating it. I did read the FCC Q&A.

My note about aesthetic issues, Bruce, was NOT about the antenna, but about the stack of books on the chair. We only have a couple of dishes here and both are on free standing tripods.

Hengzhou, it occurs to me that your HOA requires Architectural Committee approval to erect antennae. Once again, I urge you to read your HOA's documents, including its architectural guideline. The Architectural Committee per FCC regs must act quickly on your request.

Hi Bruce/Folks,

Please see an image of how I set up my antenna. It may sound unsafe when I said that I mounted it on the chair. But, the antenna is pretty light (a little over a pound), and my piles of paper and chair is pretty heavy (I can even add more on top of it). Personally speaking, it is a very secured and safe "makeshift" installation.

However, I am starting to make a pole as suggested by the people on the forum. Thanks for all the useful advice!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60253610/Temp/antenna.jpg

Hengzhou

You are WAY off base. The HOA cannot require advance approval no matter how quickly they claim to act. The FCC does not say the Architectural Committee must act quickly, it say advance approval is PROHIBITED for exclusive use areas.

Many HOA boards have thought as you do and they got shot down. That's why I've suggested reading more than the Q&A. You need to take the time (a lot, I agree) to read the declaratory judgements to gain an insight into how the folks at the FCC really think and how the OTARD rules are interpreted. You will find that even in recent years associations have tried the same stuff that was tried in previous years by other associations as was rejected by the FCC. That's what comes from reading only the Q&A.

Can you explain to me how mounting a dish to a rail with a bracket can cause water penetration into walls or decks?

Sorry, Hengzhou, but your antenna isn't covered or protected by the OTARD rules.

1. It's bigger than 1 meter. The rules cover antennas one meter or less in diameter. Your antenna is longer than that. From the picture one can conclude that the antenna is longer than the chair is high. Typical chair seats are 17" from the ground and the back appears to be at least that long. That's 34" and the antenna, if standing on the ground, appears as if it would be higher than the chair.

2. The rule doesn't cover "stick" or what in technical terms is sometimes referred to as a "yagi" antenna. That's what you have. From the FCC's Q&A:

"Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?"

"A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal."

3. Furthermore, the antenna is not mounted to efficiently receive a direct broadcast signal. TV broadcast signals are horizontally polarized which means to be most effective, yagi antennas should be mounted in the horizontal plane. Yours is vertical and is pointing upwards as if to receive a signal coming from the sky. You have lost the gain that can be obtained from the parasitic elements (directors and reflectors) of a yagi antenna.

Simply put, your antenna is not protected by the FCC OTARD rules and apparently is not permitted by your association.

Take it down.

I use this antenna mounted inward on my patio and haven't had any complaints. it's a little more in cost, but it's such a high gain antenna you could lay it flat on the floor of your patio and still get an amazing signal.

http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-ClearStream4-HDTV-Antenna/dp/B001BRXW74/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1380668199&sr=8-9&keywords=hd+antenna

In all due respect, you are now grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to be right and have the last word..

Many associations that have been shot down by the FCC were represented by attorneys. What a waste of homeowners' money.

Balcony rails made of tubular steel do not necessarily equate to water penetration into walls or decks. Furthermore, you did not address how a clamp, that doesn't penetrate the tubular steel, causes a problem.

ARC approval still is prohibited. Period! If the concern is safety, the association must specify how the the safety problem can be mitigated.

Federal law trumps Davis-Stirling.

Who told you it wasn't a yagi antenna? The link you provided is merely an Amazon.com link that does not provide any detailed specifications.

I'm an electrical engineer with education in antenna design and I know a yagi antenna when I see one. Even looking at the picture on Amazon.com it has all the characteristics of a yagi antenna. Elements 1, 2 and 5 appear to be active elements (counting from the left). Elements 3 and 4 are parasitic elements and are either VHF director elements or UHF reflector elements, or both. Elements 6, 7 and 8 appear to be director elements. Judging from the relative length of these elements, I would guess that element 6 is a VHF director and elements 7 and 8 are UHF directors. I've been doing this since before 1960.

You may get the most channels, but that's because you've lost the directional characteristics afforded by a yagi antenna because of the way you have it mounted.

It's still not covered by the FCC OTARD rules. Sorry, but if it was, I would be the first to tell you.

For heaven's sake, Bruce. In one of my posts, I supported your suggestion that folks take a look themselves beyond the FCC Q&A. This is so especially if it's an issue in their HOA. It's not in mine.

No need to debate the extent to which water could intrude into our common area walls, ceilings, balcony floors. It's in black & white in our original CC&Rs. I see lots of balconies in three neighboring HOA's towers and they, too, do not have items attached to their balcony walls, railings, ceiling, etc. No one here ever has complained about this CC&R. I thought perhaps there was a similar one Hengzhou's HOA, but I was only guessing. Do note, Bruce, he didn't mention his clamp set-up till much later in the thread.

Right, Melissa, I think we all noticed that Hengzhou is a tenant. We don't know if his owner was notified of the infraction or not.