Operation and Maintenance of Common Area

I'm in a Southern California HOA and yes, I know, everything is different in California. It has been a while since I have been here, but I've written in the past about my dissatisfaction with my HOA and board. Our business practices are terrible, the board does little that is by the book. For example, I have to wait 6 months or more for meeting notes I request, which are about a half page long. Our former property manager was very sympathetic (he was fired--sigh--and was property manager #5.) I have lost touch with him, but he told me that the HOA could not simply ignore maintenance, by law if something was broken it had to be fixed. He said it was illegal to ignore maintenance requests.

Our CCR's are sort of vague about this, only saying, under "Operation and Maintenance of Common Areas," that the Association has a duty "to operate, maintain, and otherwise manage or provide for the ... common areas." Which shall be kept in a "first class condition and in a good state of repair." Not sure what that means; even things that work well are hardly in first class condition! Not exactly sure either what Davis Stirling says on the subject.

I know it is hardly a great idea to ignore maintenance, but is it also illegal? Where can I read more about this?

the CCRs are a contract between ALL the owners

if you feel the contract is being violated, see an attorney

NOT THE WEB POSTERS, who only offer their best uneducated personal guess

Thanks for the info. I've never seen the communityassociations website, has lots of useful stuff.

Tom,

I will add, and know that I am not an attorney, that even if the lack of maintenance was considered a violation of CA law, it would likely be a violation of civil laws and not a criminal issue. Civil laws are enforced through the courts by the parties involved. It's typical quicker to solve the issue internally.

Perhaps the lack of repairs are due to financial issues for the Association. You may want to review the finances and verify that they are on solid ground.

Sometimes, the issue can be concerns by the Board over not having money in the future. If the Reserves are fully funded, then these concerns are not always valid. The only way to address this issue is to vote in new Directors who don't share those concerns. Perhaps you will volunteer to serve. This way you will have a direct vote on the issues before the Board.

Tim

I can assure you it is absolutely not a matter of money, we have much, much more than ever before. (Am I not supposed to state an amount because of privacy concerns?) It is a matter of apathy. We really don't do maintenance unless something completely falls over and breaks. There is a large amount of deferred maintenance, but a lot of money. I was on the board and could no longer really stand it. I don't come to this website too much anymore; the end you are probably right, if I really wanted to make a change I should engineer a board coup. But there is so much apathy you can't get any support once you are on the board. So much different than those posts I see here often in which people rail against the board that ordered them to remove a plant from their door stoop. I think I would be happier in one of those!

The complex has 22 units and all in with operating budget and reserves we have $200,000.00. Much more than we used to. I think the sum is high and reflects deferred maintenance.
1.) Not sure what you mean by "reserves for gate intercom." There is no specific item.
2.) At a board meeting in 2012 there was a decision to research whose responsibility these windows were. I have heard nothing further, and minutes from the board arrive very slowly.
3.) The property manager is very responsible about forwarding me the balance/expense report. I do not think I implied otherwise. I encourage other residents to request them.
4.) I think the board has very poor business practices. I want no part of them. I think I have more power as a non-board resident. I have been unavailable for the meetings.
5.) I was unaware this was a large board. I guess you think this is a small HOA. I think at this point there is only one individual who really wants to be on the board, I believe they can't imagine being without a property manager and having to do all the work themselves. I think the president is only on the board because he believes no one else would do it. It is only 22 units.

1.) Usually there is a list of reserves items, e.g., there'd be a component called "Gate--Replacement," Gate Intercom-Replacement, etc. If the intercom isn't on your "Reserves Schedule or list, it'll need to be repaired or replaced part of your operating budget. If it's not listed, usually there's a line item or category called "Contingency." Finds could be expensed from it. In Ca, a summary of that list should be sent to you once a year.

The $200k is most likely split up into two "budgets." One is your annual operating budget, and one is how much woners need to contribute to reserves eah year.

2.) Are you telling us that your CC&Rs don't specify what the Board's (or "Association's") responsibilities are regarding maintenance? If they don't say say window repair, the HOA probably isn't responsible.

4.) Owners who are non-directors in CA are permitted by law to attend board meetings. In some HOAs, several owners will attend an HOA meeting and forcefully but politely request, for example, that the intercoms be fixed. Your bylaws should state how many board meetings must be held per year.

5.) I 've read a lot of posts on this forum and usually a board would be three members in your size HOA. Your bylaws, if you're incorporated, probably state how many directors you're supposed to have.

There is no "They or Them" in a HOA it is just you and your neighbors. So if no one is doing anything it is because everyone is waiting on "Them" to do something. Not enough money is going to resolve that problem. If you want something done then volunteer to do it or find a contractor who will. No problem submitting a contractor name for the board to call.

It is called initiative. Do not expect anyone else to have it. That is the problem here.

You are probably right, I feel like I need an attorney, and more back up from other residents. But I don't think it is fair for Melissa to say I lack initiative. I was on the board. I met with a repairman for the broken intercom and got an estimate. I called two other board members and said I wanted to vote on moving forward and they agreed. That is three votes out of five. But everything is done by consensus, usually via email. When someone ignores an email the discussion ends. At the next meeting one board member said "we shouldn't discuss new maintenance issues at this meeting." When I objected I looked around the room the other board members were staring distractedly off into space. They just don't want to get in the middle. I quit the board the next day. Aren't a lot of those things, such as cancelling the agenda and doing business via email illegal? Why would anyone participate in such a board? I feel like I do not have any legal protection. Really, they can get away with this? If you object, your only recourse is you should show more "initiative?"

What a stupid jerk.
Maybe in such circumstances it is better to NOT be on the board.
I'm sure you can come up with another obnoxious remark.

Sure, I am happy to repeat myself here, I also want the last word.
I completely disagree that under such circumstances being on the board is the best solution.
I think their business practices are dreadful and I want no part of them. And, yes , I have said so.
Their was no response, I think the board members would rather not be on the board.
I am working in other ways on HOA business.
Please do say something nasty so I can respond yet again.
Boy this website used to have better discussions.

I disagree that working outside the board and fighting it never works. If it is a do nothing board that is the best thing. I am part of the HOA and working within it, more convincingly than the board is.

Thomas, you wrote that when you were on the Board, you " . . . met with a repairman for the broken intercom and got an estimate. I called two other board members and said I wanted to vote on moving forward and they agreed."

In CA, three on a five-member board--a majority--may not discuss pending HOA business by phone. They only may place it on the agenda and discuss, deliberate, vote at a meeting.

And you are right, Thomas, a Board may not vote by email in CA except in an emergency. In the old days-prior to 1/12, I believe-- when email votes were acceptable, consensus was required.

It's also true that only items on an agenda that's posted 4 days in advance of an open meeting (2 days in advance of executive session) may be discussed at the meeting in CA. so the other director was correct, Thomas.

When, Thomas, did you resign from the Board?

Can you share what it is you're doing "outside" the Board that will improve your HOA? I agree that can be effective, but only if you have a lot of community support.

You accuse them of of poor business practices, you want no part of the situation to correct any of it, but have the time to come here and complain about it...

Well for starters, you need to go to the meetings. You may find your Association is not in as good of financial shape as you think. $200,000 is not a lot for reserves especially if your Board is trying to save up for expensive projects. Maintenance isn't cheap.

Bottom line is you admit you are in the dark and you are WILLINGLY in the dark as you are not going to these meetings. Your time would be much better served by actually attending meetings to fully inform yourself instead of coming here to complain about it.

I often get complaints like yours. What do we get for our money? Why is there no maintenance going on?

I tell them look in the mirror. The people here vote down every dues increase then complain there are no services. Now we are down to just road maintenance and now are looking at $600,000+ to repave our degrading roads as no one wanted to fully fund the roads.

And guess what. They voted down a $10 increase in the dues last year then have the audacity to complain.

Attend your meetings. You may find that your apathy is far more damaging to anything your Board is doing.

Thomas,

What you're experiencing is an "old trick" - an innocent trick in my opinion - that fools unaware HOA board directors into thinking their HOA finances are healthy. They can only count the money in the bank and cannot see the hidden expenses lurking in EVERY common area amenity that needs maintenance and replacement after it ages out. To not supply meeting minutes and other board business information to an investor, like yourself, is to masquerade incompetence. Whether or not you attend the meetings, the minutes of those meetings should be accessible to the investor/member of the HOA>

I don't think there is criminal mischief in deferring maintenance. It's the board simply counting cash savings while not taking time to acknowledge there are amenities with built-in repair costs that would "eat" that money if they cared for the property. In summary, your HOA isn't as financially healthy as its board may believe. It's the easiest philosophy for half-engaged board members to follow.

This happened in my HOA common areas for most of the 1990's and early 2000s. It's taken over two years to convince many of my co-directors and neighbors that while we may have $40,000 (and growing) in our reserves, the hidden maintenance and replacement costs throughout our community is over $150,000 - and that's if we SPEND money on maintenance and replacement equipment. Otherwise, that $150,000 would keep growing.....and the bill would come due anyway in the form of immediate and unexpected amenity "death."

If you're not attending your meetings, you need to start attending them. There's a chance members of your board may not be physically able to perform certain physical duties or have the management chops to accurately assess situations. In these cases, you may need to step forward and learn the financial ropes of your community. Everyone likes first-class amenities in their communities.....it's a belief you can responsibly fund them that divisions arise.

whine whine, bitch bitch, moan moan, groan groan

but

take NO action except to quit and then write others to (see above)

CAVEAT EMPTOR

I'm excited that five other residents signed my latest petition, for another much needed repair. That is six signatures and there are only 22 units; and five of those are on the board. I think it is a great way to participate and express my concerns with the other residents. The people I spoke to are concerned, but it is clear none of them want to be involved and on the board. They are grateful that someone else is willing to do it, even if they have little confidence in them. I think that is a big problem.

Yes, when I was on the board I called two board members, essentially to lobby for my proposal. I said I wanted to move forward, and wanted to propose this as an agenda item. They said they were in favor of moving ahead.

You think that is wrong?

As I said , I was upset that when we had a meeting a board member, with whom yes I sure do not get along with at all, said "we can't discuss maintenance concerns." They cancelled the agenda items I had proposed. Surely this is not acceptable. This is the kind of incident that makes me not want to be on the board. There really seems to be nothing to stop this. I objected at the meeting. I looked around and the other board members were staring off into space, looking uncomfortable.

This was the 2nd meeting in a row like that!

So, yes, that is exactly the kind of thing that makes me think the board is ruined, I'd rather circulate petitions and let the other residents know of my concerns. I don't really care if the board ignores me, I've lost much respect for them, but at least I have a voice.

All these comments about "this means your a quitter." I'm don't buy it. I'm not the one that has given up on my messed up HOA.

Have you even read the rules on how to conduct a meeting before accusing those having them of not doing it right? Meetings don't always go like we want them to go in our head. Our meetings were open once a month meetings. Which could mean it could take 3 months for a light bulb change. The first meeting to acknowledge the burnt out light bulb. The second month meeting to agree to replace hire a contractor if needed. The third meeting to have discussed payment of the contractor and any issues that arose. Technically speaking this would be the appropriate way to have a light bulb changed. Doesn't sound right or the HOA acting functional?

So before you jump into how your HOA is or is not doing their job, make sure you know how they are to do their job. Did we wait 3 months for a light bulb change? No. That also then meant we did not act in accordance to the rules either. Would you complain about that?

I find most people who complain about their HOA conducting business don't know the structure and rules involved in running the HOA. That doesn't mean the HOA is doing it right. It just means that one should read up their rules to see how it is to be done. Oh, and by the way, meeting notes can take 2 - 3 months before being available too. Considering the 1st meeting you take the notes, the 2nd meeting to ratify the notes. A 3rd meeting if there were changes from the 2nd meeting. So don't just assume that procedure is off if you don't get immediate results. It is a democracy after all of volunteers.

Carol, our meetings are 30 days apart. So the April meeting notes would be available 30 days later at May's meeting. However, if there was a disagreement of the notes at the May meeting, that could delay them until June to be released. The changes would have to be approved in the June meeting before release.

You can see if one followed the rules to a "T" that it could indeed take months before a reply can be officially drafted, accepted, and sent out. Even bringing something up in today's meeting can be tabled till the next meeting a month away. Which is most likely the case that you are talking about.

I've studied different meeting methods when I was in school. Davis-sterling is a meeting method. It happens to be mandatory in some states for HOA's but not all. It's a good guideline and recommended. However, not the only way to have a meeting. Our meetings are dictated by the rules on what to cover. So we follow that guideline when conducting our meeting.

Now am I saying that we waited months for resolution to issues? No. We always kept things in motion. If an emergency came up or something needed addressed, we would meet or talk about it then include it in the meeting. Remember we are in charge of the daily operations of the HOA, and the monthly meeting were held to discuss what we did on the owner's behalf on a daily basis. It was more of a briefing and decision time for items that owner's should be aware of for feedback. I was always open when it came to discussing why this or that was spent when the report came out.

It doesn't matter, Melissa, the length of time between meetings. Owners may review approved minutes or draft minutes 30 days after the open meeting in Calif. A draft should be time stamped DRAFT if an owner wants a copy.

I'm informing Thomas about the CA Davis-Stirling Act because, well, he lives in CA not Alabama. I didn't know if he was aware of D-S.

Davis-Stirling is not a meeting method. It's the law in CA only, not in "some states, Melissa." It only has to do with Common Interest Developments (CIDs). I believe you've mixed D-S up with Robert's Rules of Order, which is about procedures at meetings or "assemblies" of many kinds all over the USA. It's a required "meeting method" for HOAs in one or more states.

The website by the CA HOA attorneys is Davis-Stirling.com, Thomas--'scuse my typo!