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SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
We have a homeowner who's been chronically delinquent for YEARS (long before I brought my home). At first, she woudl pay up, fall behind and repeat, but in recent year's she's gotten really flaky and won't pay anyone anything, it seems

When we sued her, she filed for bankruptcy, but our attorney eventually got a relief from stay because she wasn't paying anything and the case was ultimately dismissed. We then moved forward with plans to do a foreclosure - this woman would be one of MelissaP1's classic "stop the bleeding" cases, because the board has decided we just want her gone since she hasn't paid and isn't going to.

The day before the sheriff's sale, she filed chapter 13 AGAIN (didn't tell our attorney or the sherrif's department). The judge had a hearing to see if the case should continue because she'd filed a year earlier and our attorney presented a letter written by the board treasurer (yours truly) urging him to remove the relief ftom stay (again). Incredibly, he said the case would continue and would see what the womanhad to say 60 days later.

That hearing is coming up next month, and if my schedule permits, I plan to attend and plead the board's case - has anyone ever done this before? If so, do you have any do's and don'ts that could help incrase our chances? Thanks in advance for any tips you can provide - and for letting me vent, as always!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I haven't done this.
Since I haven't done this, if it were me, I would rather the attorney represent the Association.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Shelia,

I am not sure from your post just what kind of court you will be appearing in and I'm not clear whether you plan to be a witness or to represent your association. Could you clarify what you anticipate doing and in what court?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Is the HOA pursuing the foreclosure? Not sure how the Chapter 13 filing will effect that. It's rather complicated but I believe bankrupt filing does not relieve HOA dues. It does other debts. The foreclosure should still be able to go on but your most likely NOT going to get a dime. Please don't bid on the property either. You all don't want it. However, finding a possible bidder would not be a bad idea at this point. Foreclosures are done PUBLICLY so nothing wrong with letting people know about it.

I did testify in court but not for bankruptsy. It involved the home we foreclosed on. The renter sued the owner because the owner had a rent to own agreement and tried to make the renter pay the backed dues (causing the foreclosure). My testimony just consisted of testifying the records presented in court were indeed the records of the HOA's. The cross examination by their attorney just consisted of what the HOA paid for out it's dues. They tried to make it seem the HOA was to pay for water, utilities, and cable. We don't do that and it's the owner's responsibility ONLY. Had to establish we were stand alone homes and NOT condo's.

Believe me, it's not what you believe it's going to be on TV when testifying. It's kind of boring. Basically, just verifying the facts on documents. Which I would make sure to have all your documents and Treasurer reports in line. That's going to be the most of your case.

Former HOA President
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posted:
We are dealing with a chapter 13 and per our attorney, it isn't necessarily a bad thing for the HOA.

From what I have been informed, a chapter 13 in a nutshell is like a payment plan but it is court enforced. HOA dues are what is considered "secured debt". As long as the bankruptcy court is informed of the HOA dues, your HOA should get paid.

However you have to make sure the debtor is doing their part and fully informing the court of the HOA debt. THIS IS KEY! The case I am dealing with, the debtor was going around and bragging to neighbors and friends that she never paid dues and was going to file bankruptcy to stiff our HOA. This deadbeat omitted the HOA debt when testifying in court (which from what I am told is a criminal act should we decide to pursue it). I had to go to one of the first bankruptcy hearings to inform the court that this person has over $3,000 in unpaid dues. The look on their face was priceless.

For us to get paid, we had to file what is called a proof of claim and an amendment to the debtor's payment plan.

Funny thing is, we were offering payment plans to everyone in arrears this summer. So now this knucklehead gets to pay for their attorney fees as well as pay our attorney fees on top of that.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
in general, it's a bad idea to volunteer to go under oath. Once you do, the other attorney can ask all kinds of questions, and be limited only by what the judge decides to limit. You could be asked about all your past troubles with the lady, and then asked how it made you feel. Did you get angry? Upset? Did you ever confront her? WHat did you say? Did you ever threaten her, use foul language, harass her? Do you harbor ill feelings towards the woman? Can you recall other members who were behind in their dues? What did the board do with each of them? Why didn't the board do X, why did they do Y instead. Did the board ever discuss her situation in a meeting? What was said? How about out of a meeting? Did you ever talk with your neighbor about her situation? Another board member, ever? In all those years, you never ever said to another board member, during a swim time, bbq, at the mail box "What are we going to do about Mrs. Smith?"

being under oath is a can of worms you should never open voluntarily.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Thanks GnomeX, I knew there is something about HOA dues and bankruptcy that another step had to be taken. I knew that HOA dues are not necessarily part of the normal process. It's good to know how to follow up on that properly as HOA dues fall a different subset of sorts. Considering that banks are to consider them as part of your debt load when purchasing a home. I kind of consider them like paying your gym dues and that process. Anyone who's tried to cancel their gym membership knows what I am talking about...

Testifying in court isn't all that bad once you know how to answer. Keep it simple with "Yes/no" answers. Their questions are already loaded enough without adding more to it. Which is sometimes what they want you to do. So avoid trying to clarify something. Hopefully, you spend some time with the lawyer first to go over some possible questions and how to answer. That would be a GREAT help!

Unfortunately, there was no prep for me when I went to the court. Never met the lawyer nor even knew the clients involved. Which they did ask me if I knew them. I did not even know for sure who I was testifying for! All they did is present a folder the HOA gave them on the foreclosure matter. I testified it was indeed the records. The other side asked me a few questions but that was it. I was in and out in less than 10 minutes.

Anyone can testify in court so your volunteer status should not matter. Everyone is a volunteer in your HOA. Good for you for testifying. It can only help. Just be prepared with the documents the lawyers may present or your HOA should have handed over. That is what they will question you about.

Former HOA President
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Thanks everyone for your comments!

Our attorney will be at the hearing, along with the trustee(who’s suggested dismissing the whole thing because the homeowner hasn’t paid anything) and homeowner’s attorney (assuming she paid HIM – I believe that also became an issue when she went chapter 13 the first time). Our attorneys suggested someone from the board come and make a statement because judges sometimes takes pity on the “poor set-upon homeowner” sitting in a courtroom with the creditor’s attorneys everywhere, all looking for their pound of flesh, as it were.

And with the wretched reputation some HOAs have, he thought it would help the judge to see how it affects the HOA, as opposed to hearing those stories about the little old lady whose big bad HOA took away her house because she was only $400 behind in dues.

I don’t intent to run into court and make a slap dash statement (personally, I'd rather slap the homeowner silly and walk out!) and will be working with them on preparing it, complete with a few notes on her long, sorry history. The cross examination, if any, doesn’t really bother me (just went through my very first deposition as part of my job). In fact, this lady has such a lousy payment history, I would think she’d be hard pressed to explain herself (then again, we ARE about to go through a hearing on this mess).

I'm told the woman's mortgage company is basically controlling all this - who knows, maybe I should take them to task for doing nothing while the debt keeps piling up, forgetting the dues help keep the property in some sort of shape, which also helps protect their interests. Seems to me if they're so interested in not losing money (they did work out a loan modification with her during the first go-round), maybe they should do like another homeowner's bank recently - the account soared over $10K, but they paid it off (I guess it's being added to her mortgage)

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GnomeX on 09/24/2013 7:22 AM
We are dealing with a chapter 13 and per our attorney, it isn't necessarily a bad thing for the HOA.

From what I have been informed, a chapter 13 in a nutshell is like a payment plan but it is court enforced. HOA dues are what is considered "secured debt". As long as the bankruptcy court is informed of the HOA dues, your HOA should get paid.

However you have to make sure the debtor is doing their part and fully informing the court of the HOA debt. THIS IS KEY! The case I am dealing with, the debtor was going around and bragging to neighbors and friends that she never paid dues and was going to file bankruptcy to stiff our HOA. This deadbeat omitted the HOA debt when testifying in court (which from what I am told is a criminal act should we decide to pursue it). I had to go to one of the first bankruptcy hearings to inform the court that this person has over $3,000 in unpaid dues. The look on their face was priceless.

For us to get paid, we had to file what is called a proof of claim and an amendment to the debtor's payment plan.

Funny thing is, we were offering payment plans to everyone in arrears this summer. So now this knucklehead gets to pay for their attorney fees as well as pay our attorney fees on top of that.


Yup. Your situation is a lot like mine - this homeowner met with our attorney at one point (before chapter 13 #1) and smirked, saying she'd just file bankruptcy if we went after her. That attorney has since left the firm for a larger one and less stress (works in probate now) - if she were still around there probably would have been fireworks at that first hearing!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
PatriciaH4 (Texas)
Posts: 42
Posted:
I've noticed that in many bankruptcy cases, the homeowner doesn't have a clear idea of how things work, almost as if their attorney didn't explain things fully.

In all but perhaps one or two bankruptcy cases we've had, the homeowner filing seems to think that all the dues will be forgiven and/or paid during the course of the bankruptcy. Several years later, when they come out BK and the HOA can legally start up the collection process again, they owe several subsequent years of HOA fees as well as the multitude of legal fees that have been tacked on because of the bankruptcy.

I have heard "but that was included in the bankruptcy!" many, many times and I really believe some bankruptcy attorneys don't explain it in easy terms to understand - that the only thing paid through the bankruptcy court is what was on the books at the time of filing (pre-petition debt). The clock continues to tick and unless they pay their dues every year (excluding the year BK was filed), they will still owe a whack of money when it is all over.

Then the cycle begins again...
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatriciaH4 on 09/24/2013 11:02 AM
I've noticed that in many bankruptcy cases, the homeowner doesn't have a clear idea of how things work, almost as if their attorney didn't explain things fully.

In all but perhaps one or two bankruptcy cases we've had, the homeowner filing seems to think that all the dues will be forgiven and/or paid during the course of the bankruptcy. Several years later, when they come out BK and the HOA can legally start up the collection process again, they owe several subsequent years of HOA fees as well as the multitude of legal fees that have been tacked on because of the bankruptcy.

I have heard "but that was included in the bankruptcy!" many, many times and I really believe some bankruptcy attorneys don't explain it in easy terms to understand - that the only thing paid through the bankruptcy court is what was on the books at the time of filing (pre-petition debt). The clock continues to tick and unless they pay their dues every year (excluding the year BK was filed), they will still owe a whack of money when it is all over.

Then the cycle begins again...

I've had the same thing happen as well. Maybe it is the attorney but in many cases I think some people are just plain stupid, suffer from selective hearing, or just believe whatever the heck they want to believe.

I cannot tell you how many times I explain things to people and I KNOW I give them all the facts and it just goes in one ear and out the other. Even with other Board members!

Had another lady send me an email this month saying we were illegally going after her for unpaid dues after her Chp 7 a year ago. Well the bank took another year to foreclose, so she is on the hook for a year dues. I even called HER attorney to confirm the dates and he told me to have them contact their office to explain this to them. Some people just don't listen...

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