AndrewC5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 3
Posts: 3
Posted:
Are their any real benefits?
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Does HOA benefit from owning the roads?
Started by AndrewC5 • 29 replies • 2300 views
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Are their any real benefits?
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndrewC5 on 09/12/2013 6:47 PM
Are their any real benefits?
Are their any real benefits?
I think so. Lower costs for one.
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posts: 500
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndrewC5 on 09/12/2013 6:47 PM
Are their any real benefits?
Are their any real benefits?
What are the alternatives and what are the costs and benefits of each?
AndrewC5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 3
Posts: 3
Posted:
It seems to me it would be cheaper if DOT took over the roads just because we wouldn't have to worry about having enough money to fix problems or repave. As far as I know once we turn it over to a public road their are no more costs to us.
AndrewC5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 3
Posts: 3
Posted:
The alternative is continue owning a road and being responsible for that road and all its costs of repaving etc etc
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posts: 500
Posted:
Andrew,
Does the road meet DOT standards and is it in a condition that they would accept? If the answer to those two is yes then what incentive does DOT have to accept the road? Is it a thru street or just a system of private driveways.
If the road does not meet DOT standards, then the costs to improve may be prohibitive. There was a reason your developer did not turn the road over to DOT and it may be that he did not want to spend the money to build a quality road. Just the other day I saw a local government's standard is 8 inches of concrete topped by 3" of asphalt. Builders typically lay an inch or two of asphalt over compacted dirt and call it a street.
You also have to consider that even if you build it to DOT standards that they may not be obligated to accept it. You could have spent tons of money that got you nowhere. DOT has limited resources so there is little incentive for them to pick up the costs of maintaining a road that someone else is already taking care of.
Does the road meet DOT standards and is it in a condition that they would accept? If the answer to those two is yes then what incentive does DOT have to accept the road? Is it a thru street or just a system of private driveways.
If the road does not meet DOT standards, then the costs to improve may be prohibitive. There was a reason your developer did not turn the road over to DOT and it may be that he did not want to spend the money to build a quality road. Just the other day I saw a local government's standard is 8 inches of concrete topped by 3" of asphalt. Builders typically lay an inch or two of asphalt over compacted dirt and call it a street.
You also have to consider that even if you build it to DOT standards that they may not be obligated to accept it. You could have spent tons of money that got you nowhere. DOT has limited resources so there is little incentive for them to pick up the costs of maintaining a road that someone else is already taking care of.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndrewC5 on 09/12/2013 6:47 PM
Are their any real benefits?
Are their any real benefits?
If your in an area that gets snow, like I am, the streets are typically plowed way, way, way before the county or city gets around to plowing them.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndrewC5 on 09/12/2013 8:14 PM
It seems to me it would be cheaper if DOT took over the roads just because we wouldn't have to worry about having enough money to fix problems or repave. As far as I know once we turn it over to a public road their are no more costs to us.
It seems to me it would be cheaper if DOT took over the roads just because we wouldn't have to worry about having enough money to fix problems or repave. As far as I know once we turn it over to a public road their are no more costs to us.
Not always.
Sometimes a county will separately assess the owners for the road maintenance. And considering that county roads standards can often be much higher, the costs can a lot of times be much more expensive to the owners.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
The only reason most HOAs exist is because of the private road.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posts: 927
Posted:
> The only reason most HOAs exist is because of the private road.
Well, no. Apart from the more intangible reasons (maintaining a degree of uniformity of appearance, etc.) the HOA may own required drainage areas, it may maintain a pool, etc., it might have green areas, it might be allowed a higher density than single-family houses, in some areas it might maintain a sewage treatment plant or water supply,... It comes down to specifics.
About the road...if private it could be gated (opening up a whole debate about whether that is desirable or not). City or county maintenance depends on someone else's priorities...a considerable amount of degradation might occur before the next repaving.
Well, no. Apart from the more intangible reasons (maintaining a degree of uniformity of appearance, etc.) the HOA may own required drainage areas, it may maintain a pool, etc., it might have green areas, it might be allowed a higher density than single-family houses, in some areas it might maintain a sewage treatment plant or water supply,... It comes down to specifics.
About the road...if private it could be gated (opening up a whole debate about whether that is desirable or not). City or county maintenance depends on someone else's priorities...a considerable amount of degradation might occur before the next repaving.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndrewC5 on 09/12/2013 6:47 PM
Are their any real benefits?
Are their any real benefits?
2
? privacy ?
masochism - some people enjoy 'money pits'
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
It comes down to specifics.
True. But many times it comes down to minimum requirements for road frontage. If you have 10 acres and only 200 feet of road frontage, and the city requires 100 ft minimum, you could make 2 house lots, or make a private road throughout the 10 acres and make 10 house lots.
10 is more profitable.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/12/2013 8:40 PM
Posted By AndrewC5 on 09/12/2013 6:47 PM
Are their any real benefits?
Are their any real benefits?
If your in an area that gets snow, like I am, the streets are typically plowed way, way, way before the county or city gets around to plowing them.
I think I would rather pay to plow a public road in front of my house than own a private road and have to pay for plowing AND paving when it's due.
As it stands now, the public road in front of my house IS plowed before the county gets around to it thanks to my teenager & his ATV with a plow. Probably 300' of frontage is cleared.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
I think it's humorous that people believe they don't pay to maintain public roads already.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/12/2013 8:40 PM
Posted By AndrewC5 on 09/12/2013 6:47 PM
Are their any real benefits?
Are their any real benefits?
If your in an area that gets snow, like I am, the streets are typically plowed way, way, way before the county or city gets around to plowing them.
And in some cities (like mine), the side streets aren't plowed at all - only the main roads.
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 09/13/2013 9:50 AM
I think it's humorous that people believe they don't pay to maintain public roads already.
I think it's humorous that people believe they don't pay to maintain public roads already.
This man speaks truth.
Unfortunately people believe whatever the hell they want to believe.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 09/13/2013 10:27 AM
If your in an area that gets snow, like I am, the streets are typically plowed way, way, way before the county or city gets around to plowing them.
Posted By TimB4 on 09/12/2013 8:40 PM
Posted By AndrewC5 on 09/12/2013 6:47 PM
Are their any real benefits?
Are their any real benefits?
If your in an area that gets snow, like I am, the streets are typically plowed way, way, way before the county or city gets around to plowing them.
And in some cities (like mine), the side streets aren't plowed at all - only the main roads.
And with cities and even county governments under severe budget problems, this is becoming more commonplace.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 09/13/2013 9:50 AM
I think it's humorous that people believe they don't pay to maintain public roads already.
I think it's humorous that people believe they don't pay to maintain public roads already.
Sure we do. I don't think anyone has said they don't pay for public road maintenance. But when a road is private, there is a direct cost associated with the maintenance of that road. When that road is turned over to a local municipality, there is no immediate tax increase to account for that additional road, but there is an immediate obligation decrease for those in the HOA.
The repair/replacement costs can certainly be assessed to the same owners in the future from the municipality, so free may only be temporary.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/13/2013 11:37 AM
Posted By BrianB on 09/13/2013 9:50 AM
I think it's humorous that people believe they don't pay to maintain public roads already.
I think it's humorous that people believe they don't pay to maintain public roads already.
Sure we do. I don't think anyone has said they don't pay for public road maintenance. But when a road is private, there is a direct cost associated with the maintenance of that road. When that road is turned over to a local municipality, there is no immediate tax increase to account for that additional road, but there is an immediate obligation decrease for those in the HOA.
The repair/replacement costs can certainly be assessed to the same owners in the future from the municipality, so free may only be temporary.
This also is not always true.
Our county isn't going to immediately assess us for our roads. They however WILL NOT accept a road dedication without the roads being in "NEW OR NEAR NEW CONDITION" which means the roads be resurfaced with a full 2 inch asphalt overlay as well as upgrading the roads to county standards.
But people here simply do not BELIEVE it. They are under the assumption that if they can disband the HOA, the county will be FORCED to accept a road dedication of our roads in their current condition. Many with this mindset are low-income and uneducated that think they are going to dodge a bullet of paying anything.
So instead of just paying for road maintenance for our private roads, these people want to ignore all the engineering & planning costs, the legal costs, and the upgrade costs they will be imposing on all of us if they get what they want.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posts: 796
Posted:
I'm sorry, but can you point out those people in this thread? They don't seem to exist from what I've read.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/13/2013 3:51 PM
I'm sorry, but can you point out those people in this thread? They don't seem to exist from what I've read.
I'm sorry, but can you point out those people in this thread? They don't seem to exist from what I've read.
I was speaking in the context of "people here" as in "people here" in our HOA.
But like I said, even if there is no immediate direct tax cost, still you will often have an immediate direct cost to bring private roads to public standards before any road dedication will even be considered. In those cases, keeping the roads private are often the cheapest option.
We are facing that in our HOA. Many people within our HOA are under the assumption the county will take our roads "as is". Not going to happen.
Another HOA in our county (one of the largest HOAs in Washington state, it is literally a small town) is also dealing with this. They are on the side of a small mountain and it isn't just a road problem, they also have a massive culvert system in need of dire repair with current bids around $24 million. The people there want the county to take over the roads and the culvert system to avoid that direct cost. There is no way that is going to happen even if that HOA brings it up to county codes. The county simply doesn't have the budget for it and they are under no obligation to do so even if they did have the funds.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
The people there want the county to take over the roads and the culvert system to avoid that direct cost.
The county doesn't care if you need to drive 5mph over potholes in a 4x4 to reach your house via dirt roads. If you don't fix them, no one will.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GnomeX on 09/13/2013 5:38 PM
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/13/2013 3:51 PM
I'm sorry, but can you point out those people in this thread? They don't seem to exist from what I've read.
I'm sorry, but can you point out those people in this thread? They don't seem to exist from what I've read.
I was speaking in the context of "people here" as in "people here" in our HOA.
But like I said, even if there is no immediate direct tax cost, still you will often have an immediate direct cost to bring private roads to public standards before any road dedication will even be considered. In those cases, keeping the roads private are often the cheapest option.
We are facing that in our HOA. Many people within our HOA are under the assumption the county will take our roads "as is". Not going to happen.
Another HOA in our county (one of the largest HOAs in Washington state, it is literally a small town) is also dealing with this. They are on the side of a small mountain and it isn't just a road problem, they also have a massive culvert system in need of dire repair with current bids around $24 million. The people there want the county to take over the roads and the culvert system to avoid that direct cost. There is no way that is going to happen even if that HOA brings it up to county codes. The county simply doesn't have the budget for it and they are under no obligation to do so even if they did have the funds.
Sorry, my bad. Since we're all "here", I thought you meant people here, not there
Yeah, expecting the county to step in as a benevolent savior is a bit of a stretch. They should have thought of that before.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/13/2013 7:25 PM
Sorry, my bad. Since we're all "here", I thought you meant people here, not there
Yeah, expecting the county to step in as a benevolent savior is a bit of a stretch. They should have thought of that before.
Sorry, my bad. Since we're all "here", I thought you meant people here, not there
Yeah, expecting the county to step in as a benevolent savior is a bit of a stretch. They should have thought of that before.
No problem. I should have made that clearer. I've just mentioned it in so many other threads I forget this is a new audience.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/13/2013 7:55 AM
If your in an area that gets snow, like I am, the streets are typically plowed way, way, way before the county or city gets around to plowing them.
Posted By TimB4 on 09/12/2013 8:40 PM
Posted By AndrewC5 on 09/12/2013 6:47 PM
Are their any real benefits?
Are their any real benefits?
If your in an area that gets snow, like I am, the streets are typically plowed way, way, way before the county or city gets around to plowing them.
I think I would rather pay to plow a public road in front of my house than own a private road and have to pay for plowing AND paving when it's due.
Many plow owners won't plow public streets unless the city hires them (as it's the city who owns them).
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I have lived in associations where the streets were private and in some where the streets were public.
PROS
We could keep non-owners off them and we could have gated them.
CONS
We had to pay to maintain them. This was the major turn off.
Our HOA is a dead end street with several cul de sacs. We get only residence traffic and the town owns the roads. Best of both worlds to me.
Bottom line is private roads can get very, very expensive.
PROS
We could keep non-owners off them and we could have gated them.
CONS
We had to pay to maintain them. This was the major turn off.
Our HOA is a dead end street with several cul de sacs. We get only residence traffic and the town owns the roads. Best of both worlds to me.
Bottom line is private roads can get very, very expensive.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/14/2013 6:11 AM
Bottom line is private roads can get very, very expensive.
Bottom line is private roads can get very, very expensive.
I would say that they can get as expensive as properly maintaining a community pool can be.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/14/2013 6:21 AM
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/14/2013 6:11 AM
Bottom line is private roads can get very, very expensive.
Bottom line is private roads can get very, very expensive.
I would say that they can get as expensive as properly maintaining a community pool can be.
How true. Having lived in 5 or so associations my list of what I want and do not want is rather lengthy. Mainly my do not wants are based on costly infrastructure/amenities such as pools, tennis courts, clubhouses, golf courses, septic systems, wells, parks, private roads, parking lots, etc. The list goes on.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Matthew,
Unless you want to gate your community, I can see no advantage to owning private roads.
Unless you want to gate your community, I can see no advantage to owning private roads.
JH3 (Maryland)
Posts: 67
Posts: 67
Posted:
There is no reason for an HOA to own anything. Taxes pay for everything that an HOA would otherwise pay for.
The reason HOAs own roads is to reduce the cost to the government, which keeps tax rates lower, but tax rates still include road maintenance - just not the HOAs, you have to pay additional taxes (assessments) for that particular road.
The reason HOAs own roads is to reduce the cost to the government, which keeps tax rates lower, but tax rates still include road maintenance - just not the HOAs, you have to pay additional taxes (assessments) for that particular road.
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