Medical Examiners Car - A commercial vehicle ?

Howdy hi Group-- need some input as to the definition of a comnercial/service vehicle ....My niece is the Assistant Medical Examiner for a County here in Florida...She is on call 24/7 365......She has to drive the car home to be available at a moments notice when called to work-- ie: car accidents,shootings etc....On thursday eve she was called to an accident involving a death--- Truck hit a person on a bicycle--- It actually then turned out to be my brother...Weird coincidence.... When she was leaving her complex she was stopped by the President of the BOD and told that her car was a commercial vehicle and she was prohibited from parking it there where she lives and if she did not cease from doing so they will have the vehicle towed....Now I can see how they could prevent say a "commercial" / "service" vehicle like an electrician or plumber,someone truly in the "service" industry - but a Medical Examiner ??? The car is white with the State logo on the side drs and on the rear of the trunk identifying it as State M.E.............She has lived there for almost 2 years and it was never mentioned that it was a violation as a commercial /service vehicle...Now a new BOD has taken over and they say she is in violation..I have suggested to her that she continue to park there and let them tow it-- I would venture to say that any towing company would be stupid to tow a State ME car on a BOD President say so... Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated...Thanks Bunches LindaC

Linda:

How do your CCR's define commercial? Are you in a single family HOA? If the BOD came onto her property to tow a car from her driveway, that would be trespassing and illegal. They could depending upon the CCR's take her to a hearing and possibly impose fines, but for a car with a state logo on it, I think the BOD would be unreasonable to not allow her to keep the car.

Hi Linda:

First of all, sorry to hear about your brother's accident.

I managed a community where commercial vehicles were not allowed. We had a guy who was on emergency response 24/7/365 for the local utility. He typically parked his truck on the cul-de-sac in front of his home. We simply requested that he park it on the driveway, rather than on the street, so it was a bit less visible to other lots.

If your niece could park the car in her garage, that would take care of the problem, would it not? Otherwise, a letter from the State Medical Examiner, the county commission, etc. to the Board might be in order. She is in an exceptional situation which is beyond the normal and they should be able to make an allowance for this. It's a public service.

J. Patrick Moore, CMCA

LindaC, our association has the same rule but has found a workaround that everyone seems to enjoy. We had 2 houses out of 50 that had white, commerical vans with large logos on the side. It was suggested that they get large white magnetic covers and apply them to the side of the vehicle each night. That worked fine for a few years and now they have both moved out. A simple magnetic cover the same color as the paint should work as well.

Okay- let's see if I can address everyones concerns...........When my neice moved to where she is living she was the Assistant M.E. The complex was a rental TOWNHOME........No restrictions on parking-- NO GARAGES.....Parking spaces outside only.......The townhomes were converted over a year ago to CONDOS and her car was never a bone of contention.Now they have a mostly farty old board and they say they dont want the car parked in THEIR parking lot-- she can parked it outside the gates on the side of the road...PLEASE......... She cant do magnets on the side as there are Lights on top of the car as it is an EMERGENCY RESPONSE VEHICLE.....It's the MEDICAL EXAMINER..not a plumber................Moving is not an option due to depressed matket in Florida--and besides that why should she move ??? Because of her occupation..One day she may be doing an autopsy on one of these OLD people ....can ya see now ??????????LindaC

Linda, insulting OLD people by calling them "farty old people" is very childish and immature, and is not appreciated by some of us OLD people on this forum who devote a lot of our valuable time educating ourselves and helping our community and other board members who come here for advice and to share information.

Your sort of name calling is usually done by people who decide that they should not have to comply with the CC&R's. (People who have the "rules are made to be broken-by me" syndrome)

If you'll search through the forum you'll find many posts of your type that complain about having to comply, and at the same time they're insulting the people whose duty it is to enforce the rules. And since most of these complainers haven't even read the CC&R's all they can do is to resort to name calling and insulting "old" people. And yes, they use the same terminology as you did, only usuually they say "old farts" instead of "farty old people". None of this type of complainer are original. They all follow the same predictable pattern. Displaying ignorance of the laws and documents and throwing insults.

If it weren't for some of the older people who volunteer their "valuable" time to running the community business, communities would be in worse shape than many of them are today, and that's because most of the young people don't want to be bothered.

Instead of blindly complaining and throwing out insults, you need to do some research by looking at both the state laws and the CC&R's.

When your rental townhouse units were converted to condos, there were CC&R's and Bylaws developed and your niece apparently elected to purchase one of these condos, and agreed to comply with the CC&R's by signing the deed.

If these new CC&R's prohibit parking, then the association should enforce the no parking covenant. If it doesn't, then there is nothing they can enforce.

If there is a no parking covenant, then it must be complied with and the only exception is if the state has a law that allows certain vehicles to park. Below is the Arizona parking statute.

33-1809. Parking; public service and public safety vehicles

Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit a resident from parking a motor vehicle on a street or driveway in the planned community if the vehicle is required to be available at designated periods at the person's residence as a condition of the person's employment and either of the following applies:

1. The resident is employed by a public service corporation that is regulated by the corporation commission or a municipal utility and that is required to prepare for emergency deployments of personnel and equipment for repair or maintenance of natural gas, electrical or water infrastructure, the vehicle has a gross vehicle weight rating of twenty thousand pounds or less and is owned or operated by the public service corporation or a municipal utility and the vehicle bears an official emblem or other visible designation of that corporation.

2. The resident is employed by a public safety agency, including police or fire service for a federal, state, local or tribal agency or a private fire service provider or an ambulance service provider that is regulated pursuant to title 36, chapter 21.1, and the vehicle has a gross vehicle weight rating of ten thousand pounds or less and bears an official emblem or other visible designation of that agency.

If there is a law like this in your state, and if the ME assistant vehicle is determined by the law to be in this emergency or public service group, and if the ME assistant is required to have the vehicle with her, then all she has to do is obtain a letter from the ME office which quotes the law and proves that the ME office is part of that group, and the assistant is required to have the vehicle with her at all times. Present the letter to the MC, or board of directors, and all is taken care of.

If there is no law, and if there is a no parking covenant, then she must comply with it.

You've received the advice, and now it's time for you to offer an apology to all of the people of advanced age who volunteer their time to provide a valuable service to their community and to this forum, whom you've insulted by calling them "farty old people".

Suppose the person's livelyhood was emptying septic tanks? How would you feel having the "honey wagon" parked in the driveway next to your house?

Check the CC&Rs before you purchase the property to see if you can live with the restrictions. If you can, buy the property. If you cannot, don't buy it expecting to ignore the restrictions.

William and Ron:

I do agree with you guys, if the rules are there then don't buy in that neighborhood or leave the car at work.

My questions goes back to a post Linda made about how this person bought into the neighborhood and it was converted at a later time to Condos and then the restrictions came out. If that information is correct and she was already a member then she should have been grandfathered in, but I may have misread that.

Group--- Let me first apologize if I offended anyone by using the term "farty old people". I LOVE OLDER PEOPLE.....They are my basis for being whom I am... In a short while I too will be called "elderly" but hopefully with the grace of God I wont harrass younger people like these people at this subdivision are.
At my brothers funeral yesterday I had a lenghty conversation with my neice about the "car" situation.
Lets see if I can explain what has transpired..This development is in a very richey area of town..When the real estate market was at its prime in Florida the move was to convert luxury rental townhomes to Condos- It WAS all the rage in Florida...NUMEROUS older persons bought these these units when the RENTERS could not afford to stay-- The renters were forced from their homes because of the "greedy" real estate market.Now picture almost 2/3 of the new OWNERS never intended to occupy these units and then offered them back to the renters at almost double the rent !!!! This was a little over a year ago..Now my neice has lived there for over 2 years and purchased the unit to LIVE there...She was in possesion of the car at all times...Never a bone of contention till recently.....A few of the people who serve on the board say " IT LOOKS BAD TO HAVE A MEDICAL EXAMINER CAR IN THE PARKING LOT" So they STRONGLY suggested she not park it there but place it outside the gates on the side of the road.....She has politely explained to them that this is an unreasonable request as she is on call 24/7 365 and just because a few THINK it looks bad to have a ME car parked in the parking lot it not a valid reason for their request...So then they said-- Well then we are going to call it a "commercial vehicle " according to the rules and have it towed.....Now for 14 months it was never called a commercial vehicle ...but with a new board they say it is.....The new board is also upset that the 2/3 absent owners have rented out their units to "PROFESSINAL" "YOUNG" people and they were under the impression that this would be a mostly "older" persons community.....SO when I used the term " farty old people" it was used in a term to be disrepectful......it was a description of the type of persons my neice is dealing with....Thats all...no disrespect intended at all......They have even gone as far as telling some of the younger girls/women there that they must be fully clothed when they arrive at the pool then change into swim suit only for swimming....No sunbathing....Of course this is not a written pool rule but some mere suggestions from some of the elderly women in the complex..Also no swimming attire when in the parking lot to wash your car....Must wear shirt and shorts...Only a mere suggestion - not a written rule....So in closing I think ??? most of you will feel and understand the slang I used and grant me a pardon and not kick from the forum.......LindaC

Linda, the information and the tone of your posts suggest to me that you have more of an agenda than a problem. And I have to wonder why you are fighting her problem for her and why you are fighting it here.

Again, William provides the answer - it's all in the CC&Rs (and possibly state or local laws). If the HOA tells her she may not park on the property, and she continues to do so, they can take whatever legal action is provided for in the CC&Rs (there's that word again). They won't likely tow it but they can probably fine her for each day it's parked in violation.

Has she actually asked the board (not just one member on the street) for permission to park the vehicle in the development? I recommend that she ask to bring this before a board meeting, that she bring written justification, and that she be very polite and non-confrontational. If she doesn't get permission she may opt to have an attorney review the CC&Rs (third instance) for a legal opinion.

Well it looks like the've got your niece on that one. Personally, I don't think I would buy into an association where the "rules" could be easily changed by the BOD and changed again by a following board. This is the first time I've seen or heard of such a clause. Imagine the BOD having the right to force everyone to get rid of their dogs or buy only white cars!

The CC&Rs I've read or heard about require a vote (usually 75%) of the members to change a covenant. We are facing this right now to ease our trash put out time. It's a PITA, which can be good in some circumstances.

Again, she can only work within the CC&Rs, appeal the decision, or seek legal advice. It's possible that the board feels that if they allow her vehicle they will have to allow taxicabs, plumbing trucks, landscaping trucks, etc. After all, if she can have her ME vehicle why cant the other members have their work vehicles parked in their driveways. There's a large planned community in MD near where I used to live that has banned all trucks (including personal pickups) since the 1960s. All these vehicles can be seen parked outside the development overnight and the owners walk or carpool to them each day.

Aside from the commercial vehicle issue, what do the CC&R's say about "parking" of vehicles?

We are dealing with this issue in our Community at this time.
When people purchase their home, they read their bylaws and CCRs,
and then they sign on the dotted line agreeing to these rules.
They have a right to drive whatever vehichle they want, however,
they do not have the right to park it in their Community.
Every other resident in her Community, has a right to have those
rules enforced.

Our covenants say the same thing but we are interpreting it to mean that we can establish Rules & Regulations / Policies & Procedures not specifically spelled out in the Covenants (things like nsf charges - our bank bills us $15 so we pass it along).

It is also the basis many Association’s use to power their ACC when something is decided based on aesthetics; there have been several court ruling that support it as well.

I think she would have better luck classifying it as something else. Everyone is assuming that there are only two classifications; if you can prove the card is a third then those rules don't apply.

Linda:
The Board cannot change the INTENT of the covenant or bylaws by creating a new Rule. They can only EXPAND on the covenant/bylaws or allow them to be UNDERSTOOD MORE CLEARLY with the creation of a RULE. This fact was communicated to our group at a meeting by an HOA lawyer.

Covenant/Bylaws need to be voted on and the change officially recorded; R&R do not, as your quoted section implies. At the meeting, your niece needs to be armed with knowledge of her covenant/bylaws re section on 'parking of vehicles'.

- If there is no mention of parking of COMMERCIAL vehicles in the covenant docs, this Board is actually adding verbiage without member vote and they are
not allowed to do it officially, since it is not part of the 'recorded' docs.

Linda, this is the section of the CC&Rs you posted:

"***Additional Rules and Regulations : The Association may promulgate such other rules and regulations as it determines to be on the best interest of the Unit Owners and such additional Rules and Regulations shall as long as they remain in force- be deemed additional covenants and restrictions as the to the ownership ,use and occupancy of the Condo Property.***** "

It appears to me from this wording that they have the right to prohibit any "type" of vehicle that they want to. The "additional Rules and Regulations" carry the same weight as the original CC&Rs. As I said before, I don't think this is a good thing, but it appears to be legal unless it violates a state or local law.

Even though this is an "upscale development" that doesn't prevent a plumber or electrician or even a septic tank cleaner from buying into the development and parking his/her vehicle if it's not prohibited.

As far as your thinking "it would be a "security" benefit to the whole place having these highly visible "deterrent" vehicles in the parking areas", many would agree, but what you as an individual (and not even a member, just related to one) think is irrelevant. Has your niece considered running for office on the board? Has she contacted the other residents who would be affected by this change?

There are ways to allow the police, ME, etc, vehicles while prohibiting "trade" vehicles.

But doesn't the line she quoted ""***Additional Rules and Regulations : The Association may promulgate such other rules and regulations as it determines to be on the best interest of the Unit Owners and such additional Rules and Regulations shall as long as they remain in force- be deemed additional covenants and restrictions as the to the ownership ,use and occupancy of the Condo Property.***** " state that they are "covenants and restrictions"? Wouldn't they then carry the same weight as the original covenants?

This may be splitting hairs, but the quoted section states that "The ASSOCIATION may promulgate rules....", not that the BOARD may. So wouldn't this mean that the ASSOCIATION (with the usual 2/3 vote of all members) could pass a restriction on commercial vehicles, but the BOARD doesn't have that power?

Or is the general feeling that since the Board was elected to represent the Association then they do have that power on their own?

After reading this over many times, I interpret it like this:

The board is able to develop other "rules and regulations" for the community.

Given that we know it takes a large percentage of the community to amend or add, or remove a covenant in the declaration, this section cannot be intended to give the board authority to amend, add or remove. Otherwise in would be in direct conflict with the section of the declaration that states the percentage required to add, delete, or amend a covenant in the declaration.

I think what they are saying is that the Rules and Regulations must be complied with just as the covenants and restrictions, and can be thought of as such.

Therefore, in the case of the commercial vehicle issue, if there is no discussion about commercial vehicles, or about parking, then the board cannot develop such a rule because it would conflict with the section that requires a certain percentage of the community.

If the declaration has a section that deals with no parking of vehicles and lists boats, trailers, RV's etc, then a rule could be developed that would define these vehicles, and they would be able to prohibit vehicles over a certain size such as a 1 ton pickup truck, or a vehicle with body modifications, etc.

Unfortunately, the wording of the section is nebulous, and if it is going to cause a large problme in the community, then the community should draft an amendment to that section as well as a new section dealing with parking. Then the vast majority of the community, about 75% will have spoken.