Respectful perspective on why HOA Members revolt against HOAs

Started by ErinH1 • 184 replies • 22598 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

So, I see an underlying issue here with why members are constantly revolting over HOAs.

It's well know, and historically documented that several HOAs around the country are in fact money making expeditions for individuals who know how to manipulate the system and HOA set up.

It is no surprise that there are many bad HOAs out there. There are in fact MANY good ones too.

Where homeowners end up getting their knickers in a wad is when the trust is lost.

There is NO trust, so there is conflict.

HOAs that do not, or will not get or stay transparent. Do not produce records of expenses. Have very shady items of contention that do not add up to residents. Secret meetings. Play political games to keep the HOA producing what it is they need it to produce.

There are BAD people out there. Not all of you are bad. Many of you are wonderful people. The BAD ones mess it up for all of you.

We the homeowners paying into the HOAs (especially ones that have little to no benefit), are suspect to things much easier knowing that there are so many loopholes and ways to turn our dues into your individual profits.

I am sure the stories are thousands of crooked HOAs and the things that they do to keep monies for themselves, instead of putting it into the communities where it belongs.

So, there it is. TRUST.

No Transparency. No TRUST.

Thanks,

E

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I have found that many people just don't understand what a HOA is and how it operates. That include even it's board members. It is a vicious cycle of the blind leading the blind. Then you get those people who just ASSUME crookedness no matter what on top of that. Some "urban legend" or "headline" has them believing things that aren't accurate or true.

Here is an example that bothers me most... A woman was being foreclosed on by her HOA. So she takes it to the news media. She tells some heart breaking story and that the HOA never notified her of their intent to foreclose. HOA's are just evil and money hungry. You better watch out cause they will do this to you too if you don't "fall in line".

Here is the REALITY of this woman's situation... #1 everyone has a heartbreaking story. The media just brings more attention to a bad situation and makes your HOA look bad for EVERYONE. Making sure that no one wants to buy your homes. There goes your supposed "home values" for airing out dirty laundry that isn't really dirty once you look at the FACTS. The facts in this woman case? She was renting the home out. Her renters never gave her the HOA's notices. By law the notices go to the HOA address ONLY as it is the address on record. For correspondence to go to another address is just a "courtesy". The foreclosure process includes a PUBLIC notice printed in the paper. This owner had not paid dues in over a year. Meaning that ALL the HOA members had to foot the bills. A HOA is ONLY funded by it's owner for it's owners. Do you think it's fair that someone does not pay their fair share and reaps the benefits? Especially if those benefits are going to renters?

So do you see how perception of a HOA foreclosure can be made to be evil when in REALITY this person did not pay their fair share of the dues? Would you not as a HOA member be at the meeting demanding that they pay? The options are liens or foreclosure. Liens prevent the sale of the home until the amount owed is paid. The foreclosure forces those out who don't pay at all. Both options BOTH end once the amount owed is paid. Pay the amount owed and no lien or foreclosure! Imagine that! How indeed evil and conniving is that for a HOA to have the power to make sure members pay their fair share? The same power as an individual has against their debtors...

A HOA is a non-profit but NOT in the terms of a charity. It is to spend as much money as it collects in DUES as it takes to operate/pay it's bills. Anything above that can be subject to taxation. These board members stories of taking money I just don't get. The positions should be VOLUNTEER only and the benefit is that you get to handle the every day business of the HOA. How one makes money is illegal and it's prosecutable in a court of law not a HOA.

There is no such thing as a "HOA industry". If there was... Where do I send my resume too? The CAI does exist but they are part of another industry that subject matter is HOA's. Each and every HOA is SEPERATE entities. They each have different rules and laws depending on each state they are in. A HOA's were created to be "sales tools" for builders/developers. After turn over to the owners/members they then turn into more of a corporate/quasi-government environment. Still with the intent of making sure their homes stay ATTRACTIVE to potential buyers.

I find those who accuse their HOA's of being secretive and evil, have that mentality already in their heads. One tends to accuse others of what they think or do themselves... HOA's are what you make of them... The power is always and will always be in the owners hands..

Former HOA President

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ErinH1 on 09/05/2013 10:04 AM

... the things that they do to keep monies for themselves, instead of putting it into the communities where it belongs.

Who is this "they" you speak of?

How are "they" keeping money for themselves?

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Quote:

One tends to accuse others of what they think or do themselves... .

You've made a few assumptions here. I forgive you.

Saying that accusing entities that are well known to pocket and mismanage others funds is precursored by the stators own dishonesty is about as valid and accurate as saying if you think politicians are scumbags you are probably one too.

Folks accuse for reasons. NO transparency is one. Got nothing to hide? Then show us everything.

Pretty much along those lines.

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the time you took to write that.

E

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

edit: "accusing SOME entities", as ALL HOAs are not bad thing.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Erin:

I just have to wonder have you ever served on an HOA Board?

If you have were you then stealing money too?

I find it amazing how you and others come to some conclusion that fraud, theft and misbehavior of all kinds is that common place. Are some Boards not up to the job? Hell most people I know can't handle their own finances foreget about he finances of their property. Are some Boards giving i their best shot by not up to the task because of the limitations of their members YES but does that rise to the level you seem to be suggesting where everyone has lined their pockets?

And where oh where do you and others get the notion "transparency" guarantees honesty? Our property has an annual budget of just under $400,000 if I turned over the records to each and every owner my guess most would have no clue what they were looking at. So just how does that prove or ensure everything is on the up and up?

If you are honest you are honest transparency does not make people honest. And having trust in people or requiring the Board to build trust with each property owner is IMO not all that important. Yes, its feely good but does little to get the job at hand done.

I have served on my Board for 26 years. During the last 10 as President.
Our assets have grown 15X fold over those years. Hell, 7 of the other 8 BOARD MEMBERS CAN'T TELL YOU HOW THAT WAS DONE. THEY ALSO CAN'T HANDLE THEIR OWN PERSONAL FINANCES. And in those 26 years I have taken nothing.
But the property has benefitted enormously.

So I don't live on a property where people stole all the money and when they came out of the coma it was to late. I got up one night wlaked down to the meeting sat down and watched and listened. Found out there was crap going on and fixed it.

The problem with HOAs is not the rouge, illegal, thieving Boards as some not so deep folks like to claim. The problem goes back on step further to the uninvolved, disinterested, lazy owners who THINK someone else will do THEIR job for them. That's not life.

Mnay folks who come to this site and moan and groan like small kids never attend meetings, never bothered o read their documents, have no comprehension of what it costs to keep the lights on or the lawns mowed or the insurance coverage in place. Magic, the thieving, dishonest, lowlife Board who some claim make a living from all the money they steal each day. Myself I find those sorts of generalities insulting and demeaning. By I forgive you, for you know not what you have done.

If you don't like what's going on in your HOA just like if you don't like what's going on in your country get off your behind and do something. It's your property. It's your money. It's your home. Is that not worth an effort? For most easier to sit back and post babbling stories about how the HOA has done you wrong and SOMEONE, just not YOU should fix it.

Arrogance,ignorance and lazy very comkon character traits for those who whine about their out of control HOAs.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

I can see you're upset and taking it personal.

Here are the facts:

Members should not have to think about an HOA. We don't even want to be in them. They do nothing for us. Literally we pay them for absolutely nothing.

They have a golf course. It's a piece of crap. End of story. They are dumping money into something that the economy does not support.

Same goes for the lake. Complete money suck. It's more like a stagnant pond that is too nasty to go into anyhow.

I have made it a point to state that not ALL HOAs are bad, but SOME of them are.

Now, that our golf course management company has collapsed under the economy, the HOA will now have to foot the bills for the golf course that no one uses, thus increasing assessments on members that DONT use the crap golf course. It should be shut down, sold, or done away with.

Same goes for the HOA. It has no purpose. There is a lake. It's not usable. No one uses it. Fish die all the time. It's a 7 foot deep pond that smells nasty most of the year.

Do you partially see now? We the members should keep putting OUR money into this mess of an association.

I am merely stating facts.

Bad HOAs keep asking for money. Bad HOAs that can't manage your money end up costing you more.

That is the bottom line.

Maybe you should come be our president and clean up this mess.

Many of us would appreciate that.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Additionally, I PAY HOA dues per month so I DONT' have to do anything. That's why its dues. I am paying for a service. If I had to cook my own food I wouldn't need to go to restaurants.

They work for me. HOAs owe their members better.

We are essentially paying HOAs to mismanage our money, to come back to ask us for more money, for more nothing.

It's worse that the US Government.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I agree with what Jon said:

The problem with HOAs is not the rouge, illegal, thieving Boards as some not so deep folks like to claim. The problem goes back on step further to the uninvolved, disinterested, lazy owners who THINK someone else will do THEIR job for them. That's not life.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

I think that HOA professionals here that are doing a great job at their HOAs should not take what we are saying personal.

OUR specific HOA is not necessary, IS a problem, and is a waste of money.

There is no benefit to members that non members do not get, except the members who were stuck with the HOA have to pay lots of money, while people not in the HOA in the same community also get nothing.

Get it?

What's happened is that OUR mismanaged HOA has gotten itself into a corner in OUR scenario, not everyone else's who reads this board.

So, with the understanding that some people are just WHINERS, there are people with real problems who sought out a site to get some answers from professionals like yourselves, we may want to accept that there are poorly managed HOAs out there, and not take it personal or think that it's just some whiny member who's lazy.

My two cents.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Erin

The main HOA defenders here are the first to admit that not all HOA's are bright, honest, etc.

What many here do say is:

1. Do not throw the baby out with the bath water.

2. Remember the Boy That Cried Wolf Fable.

3. Understand ones docs and what can be done to change things.

4. Many should get off their azzez and take action versus bytch about it. You will find that is how most out here on BOD's came to being on their BOD. They were pizzed/concerned about something and they took action. Many were rebuffed and/or tricked the first few times they tried, but they kept going.

Hope this helps.

LoriL1 (Florida)
Posts: 78

Posted:

Erin,

It is clear from your statement "They work for me. HOAs owe their members better." that you don't have a thorough understanding of HOAs. Yes, you are a member, but so are the individuals that are volunteering as board members or committee members. They also pay dues each month. An HOA is comprised of owners, some volunteer and others, like yourself, don't. It really is a good thing that not everyone feels the way you do, or no one would be doing anything. If the members that are currently volunteers in your HOA are doing such a bad job, this is all the more reason for you to get involved and make changes for the better.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

So why do you choose to live in an HOA?
It's clear that you're precisely the disinterested, lazy, uninformed (all intentionally it seems) owner that simply complains about what VOLUNTEERS are doing. Don't like it? Get involved and fix it or move. Simple.

"Trust" has no place in your discussion. It's disinterest and apathy along with an attitude of entitlement, all on your behalf.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Not all communities are created equal but I will say this: apart from the occasional homeowner who doesn't care what they signed up for, I would say it isn't rebelling membership that is the problem but rebelling boards. When you have a board made up of the minority making decisions you are bound to upset some people. THEN you get some people "rebel.". My neighborhood didn't care much about a HOA. It was always a voluntary social club but then they pushed a mandatory conversion against our wills and the poop hit the fan. The "rebelling" homeowners were labeled outsiders but funny that when a court ruled in favor of the homeowner 75 percent of the forced members withdrew membership, meaning they were only paying because they thought they had to.

There are plenty other neighborhoods that run smoothly. I think it all depends onn the management.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Agreed on all.

Thanks folks.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I like to say a HOa's budget is like laying your checkbook on the dining room table and everyone in the house has a say on how that money is spent. The parents being the board members and the children the general membership.

So how transparent and honest are you going to be with your income if your the earner of that money? Do you think your kids make the wisest decisions when they see money? Does your spouse? It is human nature when it comes to financial to want control and keep it closely guarded. Add that to multiple sources who kick in the funds, the board in charge has to realize ALL that money is every members. It is just every member wants special treatment.

So you ask a HOA to be open and honest but also responsible with the money... Sometimes you can not have it all. It may be more responsible to pay the utility bills than new pool furniture...

Former HOA President

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ErinH1 on 09/05/2013 1:59 PM
I can see you're upset and taking it personal.

Here are the facts:

Members should not have to think about an HOA. We don't even want to be in them. They do nothing for us. Literally we pay them for absolutely nothing.

They have a golf course. It's a piece of crap. End of story. They are dumping money into something that the economy does not support.

Same goes for the lake. Complete money suck. It's more like a stagnant pond that is too nasty to go into anyhow.

I have made it a point to state that not ALL HOAs are bad, but SOME of them are.

Now, that our golf course management company has collapsed under the economy, the HOA will now have to foot the bills for the golf course that no one uses, thus increasing assessments on members that DONT use the crap golf course. It should be shut down, sold, or done away with.

Same goes for the HOA. It has no purpose. There is a lake. It's not usable. No one uses it. Fish die all the time. It's a 7 foot deep pond that smells nasty most of the year.

Do you partially see now? We the members should keep putting OUR money into this mess of an association.

I am merely stating facts.

Bad HOAs keep asking for money. Bad HOAs that can't manage your money end up costing you more.

That is the bottom line.

Maybe you should come be our president and clean up this mess.

Many of us would appreciate that.

Erin:

I'm not upset. But your post was asking why people revolt against their HOAs.
It's Thursday night here. Cool weather quiet outside wih a slight breeze The lawns are mowed. The property is picked up. The contractor we have repalcing one of our roofs has packed up for the day. Looking out MY window no one here is revolting. And my guess there might be perhaps one or two other HOAs around the country who just might not be under full attack.

"Members should not have to think about an HOA."
Just where does that FACTOID put together? It's your home, your investment, probably the largest investment of your life and you should not be bohered to think about it? That is not a fact that's a plan for disaster!

Just where oh where does it say that. So you get to live on auto-pilot while someone else you don't boher to know handles your financial affairs. Not for me.

And YES Erin I see that in your opinion the HOA is being run poorly. So besides coming here and detailing the shortcomings of your HOA which IMO will do nothing what is it you have done? Where are all the other property owners?
Sitting back hoping someone on a white horse rides in to save the day?

Why did you buy into this community? Did you not look ino its operation befoe hand? Did you not understand the cost of a golf course as an amenity is enormous? Did you not consider the benfit of purchasing a home there?

Erin you speak about the HOA as if it is some distant entity that operates solely to cost YOU money. The FACT is YOU are the HOA. You and the other owners who either voted for this Board, didn't bother to vote, have sat back and complained but done little or are waiting like others for the government or some agency to make things right. In most cases that no will be happening.

And I appreciate the offer to come out and work on your property but at this time I am no for hire.

Let me make to final points. When I found stupidity, dishonesty, and arrogance present on my Board I decided to do what needed to be done for myself. No one looks out for YOU like
YOU! Can't pay someone to do that job because they might not perfrom the job required and they might take your money at the same time.

To clean up the mess here took me 14 YEARS. Pleading and asking for those
property owners to
support changing out the Board and the MC. Then one night after the elections were held the President and VP who had both
served for years
and the Treasurer. Then the MC was terminated.

So if you wish things were different
make them different. Not any real use as I see it posting on sites like his discussing the big picture when the litle picure where you live seems
to be less than desirable.

Good Luck

EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/05/2013 4:35 PM
I like to say a HOa's budget is like

The parents being the board members and the children the general membership.

Do you think your kids make the wisest decisions when they see money?

That analogy seems condescending, like board members are smarter than the other homeowners.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

How is that condencing? You are assigning that attribute to the board. They may be smarter though considering they got involved in their HOA and do something. If that is your definition of smart... Some days I question that as intelligence...

Former HOA President

ValerieS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 244

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EricH8 on 09/05/2013 5:54 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/05/2013 4:35 PM
I like to say a HOa's budget is like

The parents being the board members and the children the general membership.

Do you think your kids make the wisest decisions when they see money?

That analogy seems condescending, like board members are smarter than the other homeowners.

I agree that the analogy is demeaning. I view the Boards relationship to its members more like a business PARTNERSHIP. Her odd comments do explain a lot about her thought process though...

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Quote:

That analogy seems condescending, like board members are smarter than the other homeowners.

Eric,

The way it was taken out of context, I agree that it is condescending.

However, if it is placed back into context, it could show a difference between needs and wants. Children typically want to spend the money on the latest and greatest gadget (wants) whereas the parents may want the same thing but know they need to put money away to pay for a new roof.

Here is what was said in context:

I like to say a HOa's budget is like laying your checkbook on the dining room table and everyone in the house has a say on how that money is spent. The parents being the board members and the children the general membership.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

With all due respect Erin, the title of this thread implied a "respectful perspective" but you appear to deviate from that subject and present your personal opinions on HOA corruption. That won't get you many fans here. I am not the biggest proponent of HOAs and agree that there are good and bad ones out there, and in the same regards, there are good and bad residents within HOA communities as well. BUT you must be careful of over-generalizations. I have been unlucky to have two horrible experiences with HOAs (my only two) that will most likely curb my purchasing behavior in the future (this is typical if placed in the context of customer retention). What becomes counter productive is if you ask a question on people's perspectives as to why homeowners may "revolt" and then proceed to go on a diatribe against HOAs.

If you look at the many threads on this board that are started by people who come to this board with problems (like I did 5 years ago) you will find a common theme among those threads - transparency. My issue involved what was eventually deemed by the courts as an illegal conversion from voluntary to mandatory. Some here on this board disagreed with those assessments and some agreed but what raised the biggest flag and what instigated my own "revolt" was when I asked one simple question of the board I was given the shaft. I simply asked what vote took place and what was their legal basis to support such a conversion. I was stonewalled from the get-go, threatened with legal action, banned from meetings, and provided false information - all designed to deterred myself (and my neighbors) from fighting the HOA (the attorney responsible for the conversion actually told a neighboring HOA that their methods were a legal "gray area" and would stand so long as nobody challenged them).

Had the HOA responded with a simple response, like a vote count or a statute citation, I probably would have continued to pay into the HOA.

Sure there are other underlying problems to various revolts, such as unpopular proposals, selective enforcement, lack of compassion, etc., but I think when those issues are raised if the HOA is transparent with their actions and communicates effectively with the membership, the membership will make an informed decision and cause for revolts would be minimized.

It is also no secret that HOAs can be legal moneymakers but that does not mean everyone involved is on the take.

My personal belief is that the attorney responsible for those conversions in my neighborhood did so to create a revenue stream. They converted many neighborhoods in Central Florida with their dubious methods and it makes sense. They advertise being sort of HOA gurus and collections specialists. What better way to make money then to convert 900 homes to mandatory, establish stricter covenants and restrictions, grant the BoD more power, and then sit back and wait for infractions to start to roll in. Then the lawyer can send out a boiler plate enforcement letter and request hundreds in legal fees. There isn't much money to be made in the voluntary association market. The lawyers went out of their way to defend the court case in my neighborhood, practically working pro bono for the HOA, because they were defending their entire business model.

Now my other neighborhood had that same attorney but when a new board took hold they switched attorneys. That attorney continued with enforcement letters and such but it is my belief that they were incompetant. For instance, despite my having representation and notifying the HOA, their attorney ignored my attorney and continued to harass me with enforcement letters, even when informed that per Florida law the covenants they seeked to enforce were no more. That attorney stopped once it was made clear that I wasn't going away and they were wrong. This wasn't the first time something like this happened, either.

It is my opinion that many HOA attorneys (at least here in Florida) seem to err on the side of HOAs. It was actually very difficult for me to find individual representation because many of the attorneys versed in HOA law work for HOAs. I was lucky enough to have a friend who had amazing legal teams. This isn't true for all attorneys but I think that considering how prevalent HOAs are in Florida, the legal culture here is to doubt the homeowner and fine them into submission.

The media, of course, loves abusive HOA stories.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK7 on 09/06/2013 2:12 PM

It is my opinion that many HOA attorneys (at least here in Florida) seem to err on the side of HOAs.

I would expect any attorney to error on the side of their client.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

Let's look at some of the numbers.

There are around 350,000 HOAs in the United States, with an average of 4 Board members per HOA for a total of 1,400,000 Board members representing approximately 50,000,000 homeowners.

How many people, Board members, on this site are regular helping posters on this site? less than 100.

How many people initially come onto this site praising the HOA they moved into. less than zero would be a rough estimate.

How many people moved into a home not realizing they moved into an HOA, let alone, knew what one was? numbers might stagger you.

How many people in this country would watch the news, if all that was broadcast was, good news? Not many, including myself. We have a desire to see bad things.

How many regular poster here would stay if everything that was commented on was, good things?

My point is, we are here because there is an audience. We probably came to this site seeking help with our own HOA, myself included. Many on this very site told I was no more than a problem maker and the Board had much more experience in handling the affairs of the association. Documents requests were unreasonable, just a trouble maker. With the help of a community, we got things cleaned up, changed management companies, changed attorneys. In a year and a half, we manage a positive change.

Problem that still exists out there is that too many individuals are sitting on Boards with too much absolute power. If they want to exact some form of justice on someone for not following their rules or those they may have interpreted for their own benefit. Change is difficult and sometimes, not without repercussions.

People that move into HOAs have signed documents, or so they were supposed to have, that bound them to certain rules and regulations. If they don't, using the association's money, (yours) can fine you, take you to court, get a judgement, take your house, etc. Turn the tables, what if they don't follow the rules that exist to supposedly regulate them, whether as Board members, management companies or attorneys, what happens to them.

I hear individuals on this site talk about having only closed meetings because their state doesn't require them and that no one would show up anyway. Why not send everyone a newsletter at the least and communicate to the members exactly what you are doing and the state of affairs of the community they invested in.

Someone here says that HOAs were sale tools of the developer/ builder. Maybe 30 years ago, but reality is, because of the economic downturns in the last couple of decades, that cities and municipalities now control the development of HOAs. HOAs, especially smaller ones are in trouble. Delinquencies have risen, occupancy has changed substantially in certain area to rentals, which ultimately leads to less pride in ownership.

I see many associations operating with less than a minimum of Board members, meaning they have no authority and yet management companies and attorneys keep taking their money, no questions asked.

There are many, many outstanding HOAs out there. If you ask them their secret, I bet the top answer would be communication. To the other, would hurt to educate yourself, but no matter the best of luck.

EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 09/06/2013 1:59 PM
Eric,

The way it was taken out of context, I agree that it is condescending.

What does "taken out of context" mean? If a stand alone quote has a misleading meaning compared to reading the same words within the complete text, the quote was taken out of context. The process of quoting should not be equated to "taking out of context". Quoting is an accepted practice. I quoted instead of repeating the full text of MelissaP1's message so it would be more clear what I was referring to. In either case, Melissa is saying the board members are like the parents and the other homeowners are not as wise, like children, about making financial decisions. I could use bold emphasis to make the same point in less compact form:

Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/05/2013 4:35 PM
I like to say a HOa's budget is like laying your checkbook on the dining room table and everyone in the house has a say on how that money is spent. The parents being the board members and the children the general membership.

So how transparent and honest are you going to be with your income if your the earner of that money? Do you think your kids make the wisest decisions when they see money? Does your spouse? It is human nature when it comes to financial to want control and keep it closely guarded. Add that to multiple sources who kick in the funds, the board in charge has to realize ALL that money is every members. It is just every member wants special treatment.

So you ask a HOA to be open and honest but also responsible with the money... Sometimes you can not have it all. It may be more responsible to pay the utility bills than new pool furniture...

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 09/06/2013 2:21 PM
Posted By KevinK7 on 09/06/2013 2:12 PM

It is my opinion that many HOA attorneys (at least here in Florida) seem to err on the side of HOAs.

I would expect any attorney to error on the side of their client.

I didn't mean the attorney's of HOAs. I meant the attorneys who generally deal with real estate with a particular focus on HOAs. I consulted many in the area (between Tampa and Titusville - the I-4 corridor) and the general consensus is that as an individual fighting a HOA, the odds are against the individual. Everytime I posed questions to attorneys I generally got the answer of "You probably misunderstood your covenants" or something along those lines. When I would elaborate the lawyers would usually shift gears and insist I was somehow mistaken. The only lawyers who stated otherwise were either attorneys who don't generally represent associations or attorneys who actually looked at all the information presented to them. A lot simply ignored any documentation I had and would just assume things about the situation.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

HOA'S have a "child-parent" relationship. What is so offensive and condencending about that? Seriously, The parents are head of the house hold and the children live within that house hold. That correlates to the HOA board members are the "parents" in charge of the household operations/budget while the "Children" are a part of the household but not contributors of budget/household responsibilities.

Your mentality gets in your way if you think people are treating you like a child. I recognize a tantrum when I see one. If you can't put things in perspective, then realize you have no focus.

Former HOA President

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK7 on 09/06/2013 5:45 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 09/06/2013 2:21 PM

Posted By KevinK7 on 09/06/2013 2:12 PM

It is my opinion that many HOA attorneys (at least here in Florida) seem to err on the side of HOAs.

I would expect any attorney to error on the side of their client.

Were you paying them for their advice?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

Melissa,

Parent/child relationship?

I have an equal vested interest and contribute equally to the checkbook. Yes, I do have a say! The child who doesn't contribute, doesn't have a say.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

That is a good way to say it Richard.... Apathy in HOA's have most of the board members doing the work and those who don't get involved act like the children...

Former HOA President

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/06/2013 6:53 PM
That is a good way to say it Richard.... Apathy in HOA's have most of the board members doing the work and those who don't get involved act like the children...

And sometimes they need a real good spankin'

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

BUT IT IS STILL MY MONEY!!@!

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 09/06/2013 7:01 PM
BUT IT IS STILL MY MONEY!!@!

A special assessment can fix that!

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Haha. This is getting comical at this point.

Defensive much. Funny thing is I was accused of being a criminal because I said that there are scummy HOAs that steal and embezzle money. That is a fact. Some HOAs are money fronts.

What is not a fact is that several people who post here have accused me of being criminal because I suspect SOME HOAs are criminal operations.

Now, it appears that if you can apply that analogy, I can too.

Are some of you HOA board sitters feeling a little guilty? Hiding something and lashing back?

How does that feel.

Some of you seem defensive.

Just saying.

Am I still a criminal for stating a statistical fact?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 09/06/2013 7:01 PM
BUT IT IS STILL MY MONEY!!@!

Yes it is along with your neighbors and the dreaded Board member's. It is your job to see that they use it wisely.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ErinH1 on 09/06/2013 7:13 PM
Haha. This is getting comical at this point.

Defensive much. Funny thing is I was accused of being a criminal because I said that there are scummy HOAs that steal and embezzle money. That is a fact. Some HOAs are money fronts.

What is not a fact is that several people who post here have accused me of being criminal because I suspect SOME HOAs are criminal operations.

Now, it appears that if you can apply that analogy, I can too.

Are some of you HOA board sitters feeling a little guilty? Hiding something and lashing back?

How does that feel.

Some of you seem defensive.

Just saying.

Am I still a criminal for stating a statistical fact?

Erin:

I just have to wonder what purpose does you coming here serve in changing the conditions on the property where you LIVE?

What purpose does it serve for you to provide us all "statistical facts" as you call them here we would label those opinions.

Do you really thing its a revelation some HOAs are run poorly?

Have you read anyone who would be dumb enough to dispute that?

Is that really the extent of what you offer?

Then as I have asked, what positive purpose does you posting here serve in your mind?

Does proving some point accomplish anything?

Does proving some point to people who don't live on your property, who don't any influence on what occurs on your property, who are not affected by the conditions on your property really matter that much to you? So much so you are willing to do nothing at home but on an internet website you think you scored some points.

Or is it you are just using this site to vent because you are unable or unwilling to work at changing things for the better.

IMO the road you are on will do nothing. Is that your goal? Make a few more posts and when you look out your window everything is still the same.

As Dr. Phil would ask "How's that working for you?"

Perhaps rather than questioning strangers as to their feelings of guilt which you truly know nothing about you should stand up and question someone governing your property.

What you have done here IMO is a pure waste of time.......................

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Comical because you're coming to the realization that your "respectful perspective" was full of holes?

Let's see...
Nobody has accused you of being a criminal
You say that some HOAs are scummy, and naturally your HOA is one of them.

However, you have given no indication whatsoever that you have:
a) read your documents
b) discussed your concerns with anyone on the board

Many questions have been posed to you regarding your association, but rather than answer them, you resort to this defensive stance that comes across as if you're trying to laugh off that which you don't understand, as if you're a child trying to laugh off a joke that went over your head.

So, HAVE YOU READ YOUR DOCUMENTS? and have you discussed your concerns with the board of directors? Have you actually looked at the finances of the HOA? Seen their reserve study? Anything?

Throw us a bone here to give us some indication that you have taken more of an interest than just finding an online forum in which to rant.

btw, if you want to state a STATISTICAL fact, you'll need to cite in some form the number or percentage of HOAs with corrupt boards. Otherwise it's merely a presumption, even hearsay.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Dave D3 you are cool. I like you.

Pragmatic people are good people. I am getting involved, and I am now probing. What I wanted to do here, which I did, was incite some valuable conversation. I really appreciate your help.

JulianneW (California)
Posts: 25

Posted:

For those of you who don't like the checkbook/parent-child analogy...

It's like a corporation getting stockholder input every time a decision has to be made, whether it's spending money or making repairs.

The Board is there for a reason, in both an HOA and a corporation. The shareholders trust the board to run the company profitably and steer it in the right direction. Likewise, when the members of an association elect a board, they're placing their trust in the board to run the association efficiently and spend the money wisely.

For all the members who complain about boards, there's probably 100 who:
never read the governing documents
never look at the financial reports
never attend meetings
never voted in an election
never volunteered to be on the board

And they wonder why the same people are always on the board, why financial irregularities go unnoticed, and why things don't get fixed.

In my HOA, a board member is "bad" if s/he:
enforces the CC&Rs
attempts to collect assessments
Isn't instantly available to listen to complaints

FredO (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JulianneW on 09/07/2013 1:50 PM
For those of you who don't like the checkbook/parent-child analogy...

It's like a corporation getting stockholder input every time a decision has to be made, whether it's spending money or making repairs.

The Board is there for a reason, in both an HOA and a corporation. The shareholders trust the board to run the company profitably and steer it in the right direction. Likewise, when the members of an association elect a board, they're placing their trust in the board to run the association efficiently and spend the money wisely.

Great analogy - yes, both HOA's and Corporations have Boards of directors. However, we read, see and hear every day how corporate boards vote themselves raises in their fees. Decide to sell off parts of companies (often times the profitable parts) and many other actions that go against the good of the company, its employees or the public trust. Like laying people off to go offshore, or having international sub-sideraries to hide profits and avoid paying taxes. In HOA boards, many of us have witnessed or seen the back room dealings. In my HOA, the governing documents require multiple bids for various services. When it comes to tree removal or Lake maintenance, we see and hear about the three bids.

When it comes to renewing the MC or the HOA retained lawyer and the main Landscaping contractor, the HOA BoD gives them a no bid renewal and then accepts their rate hikes? This is done through back room dealing. This does not pass the smell test and this is pushed through by two long time serving board members with relationships to these vendors. Smell fishy.

We are in the midst of replacing the long time serving board members. This is a slow process. Four down and three to go... Takes a long time due to staggered election process.

One thing that is common, seen from my experience living in three HOA's during my lifetime, is that the longer a person serves on the board, the more apt they are to become controlling and intrusive into people's lives. In other words the more dictator like they become.

I have seen (and been the victim of) non-compliance letters that were just made up (false charges) on things that do not exist in any of our documents. Letters, very threatening letters being sent to Home owners about how if they don't jump through hoops and fix the imaginary violation the Board WILL go straight to foreclosure on them.

I have read our governing documents and can site most from memory at our board meetings. Turns out most of the Board has NOT read the documents because they give made up citations during the meetings.

For every great board out there, I am sure there is an equal number of bad ones. In my HOA, the budget is openly provided and I am sure no one is stealing money coming in as dues. But there is a great deal of suspicion regarding kickbacks from the no bid contracts being awarded. Especially in light of the increases in costs handed to us by these vendors. Prudence and common sense would dictate that in light of these increases (far and above cola or inflation) the board would make it a point to seek alternative vendors for these services in this highly competitive economy.

I am not anti HOA. I am anti dictatorships and corrupt individuals.

Here's an example: We are in Calif. We have the Davis-Stirling Act to help guide and provide rules for the board. D-S states that if three Board Members get together it is automatically a board meeting and subject to the open meeting Act of D-S.

They get around this by sending e-mails and responding. (some of this could and should be legal, maybe D-S is overreaching sometimes).
But recently, we have the spouses of three board members meeting. They discuss board business under the direction of their board member spouse and then report back to them. Kind of a very improper dealing and a way to find a loop hole in Davis Stirling. This action smells hincky and definitely creates and air of impropriety.

They do this with an air of impunity. So, their arrogance is something to be seen. And YES! This relates to a trust issue.

Other back room dealings is how the Board issues variances to themselves when they want to do anything to their property. Some people get on the board just to force their variances through. It seems that the majority of recent past board members and ACC members are the worst violators of our CC&R's in the community and their excuse is that the rules don't apply to them because they served. I have been told this by some of these people when I informed them that they are violating a rule. Other general members see this and then ask why do they (the general members) have to follow the rules if the past board members don't?

So, no financial mis-management but a great deal of impropriety going on. Slowly being cleaned up though...

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Julianne good try at an analogy but the HOA Board isn't like a corporate Board it is a corporate Board.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276

Posted:

FredO,

Thanks for a great post which parallels what many have experienced in HOAs, IMO.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

"For every great board out there, I am sure there is an equal number of bad ones."

It just amazes me when people make comments based on nothing offer them as facts and are "sure" about something nothing more than THEIR uninformed opinion at best.

FredO (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JonD1 on 09/07/2013 9:47 PM
"For every great board out there, I am sure there is an equal number of bad ones."

It just amazes me when people make comments based on nothing offer them as facts and are "sure" about something nothing more than THEIR uninformed opinion at best.

JonD1,

You want facts? How about you look at the history of all the original postings on this very forum? The vast majority of them are from people seeking advice on some very questionable actions of their HOA Board members.

I am sure you, JonD1, are very amazed whenever someone has an opinion that differs from yours and other people find credence in it.
Everyone's experience is different. You keep stating you have been involved in running your HOA for over 25 years and been the president for the last 10 years.
Yet, when you reply to posts on this forum, you come off EXTREMELY arrogant and condescending of anyone who hasn't done all the things you "say" you have done.
Gee, many people may be in the very early stages of trying to do things and all you do is put them down.

By your own admission, your HOA was very, very bad. So bad, that you finally (after how many years living there) took action to help fix it. By definition then, your HOA was a bad one. It may be great NOW (thanks to you) but it was bad before you took action. Or, am I reading your historical posts all wrong???

So, you actually prove out my statement. Your HOA is a good one now! You HOA was a Bad one before you got involved. SO, there you have it, for each good HOA, there is a Bad one....

By the way, I guess we should clarify. The HOA in and of itself is not bad, Just the board (or members of the Board) are bad. Again, that must all be forgiven because none of them would ever knowingly violate the Governing Documents, CC&R's, By-laws and rules.... (yeah, right!). I have seen, in ALL three of the HOA's that I have lived in, where one or more of the various Board members were self serving and not there for the good of the community.

It is not the property that I am speaking. It is the make up of the board. As the saying goes, one bad apple ruins the whole barrel.

My current Board make up is seven people. What are the odds that one or more of these people is self serving and has their own agenda that is contrary to the good of the community???

Sooner or later, this happens to all HOA Boards. Yes, Boards are temporary things (hopefully, based on election terms etc). However, having a small group of board members who have a lock on the majority of votes on a board (3 out of 5 or 4 out of 7 etc) means that the community is going to be a possible cycle of tyranny. At least that has been my actual observation in my current HOA.

the good board members seem to come and go (get tired of the pettiness and flat out BS) while the bad ones just keep on and on (not wanting to let go of their power trip to be lord and master over a small community of people).

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

@FredO

My take is your broad brushed accusations against all HOA Board's are just as relevant, if not more so, to the community of people they are serving.

The body of the People bitch and moan but in my experience they are usually uninformed and unwilling to get involved in anything more than a bitch session.

People often see in others (many times falsely see in others) what they fail to see in themselves.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

JonD1, you are out of line, but not the first time. Best to stay in New York, because our rules would not suit you or your style.

I do know of Fred's case first hand and he's dead on about the facts.

FredO (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GnomeX on 09/07/2013 10:43 PM
@FredO

My take is your broad brushed accusations against all HOA Board's are just as relevant, if not more so, to the community of people they are serving.

The body of the People bitch and moan but in my experience they are usually uninformed and unwilling to get involved in anything more than a bitch session.

People often see in others (many times falsely see in others) what they fail to see in themselves.

So you're saying you're uninformed?? And unwilling to do anything more than bitch about it? Seems to be the gist of your posts!
You're pretty big on the labeling of people and hold all general members in disregard from what I can see.

You come off as overly defensive of HOA Boards. Yet you are extremely argumentative of anyone with a differing opinion.

I would agree that if everyone read their governing documents, many issues and problems would never even begin to happen. Yet, I know, and can prove that most members of my current board has either never read our governing documents or read them so long ago they have no clue what the documents say.

Just this week at the board meeting, we had parking issues on the agenda. Two of our esteemed board members, stated two different things.
One of them stated that you could park an RV in your driveway for up to three days. The other one said you could park an RV for 24 hours.

I have an RV and follow the rules. Our rules actually state that you cannot park your RV in your driveway overnight. That the RV must be moved offsite at night.

Neither one of these two Board members, stating incorrect info, owns an RV. So, we have board members that do not know the documents and do not bring them for reference to any of the Board meetings? How can they possibly state anything with conviction when they immediately loose all credibility by spouting off incorrect info?? This, again pertains and relates to issues of trust. Board member credibility starts with them knowing the rules. This creates trust. The members look to them for guidance and correct interpretation of the documents.

So, according to you, mine is the only HOA in all of the USA that has two Board members that have not read the governing documents?

Sure, you know your rules. Kudo's to you. I've read your posts and feel so sorry for anyone and everyone in your community. You have some serious attitude issues. Even in the worst case, I can't see that your attitude is remotely justified. There is never a reason for you (or any Board member) to disrespect the people in your communities.

Makes you appear as bad as you say your general members are. (it's your own logic as stated above- careful what you wish for...)

Being a board member does not mean you "HAVE" to be an asshole. I have come across way too many HOA Board members who did not get that memo.

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FredO on 09/07/2013 10:16 PM

the good board members seem to come and go (get tired of the pettiness and flat out BS) while the bad ones just keep on and on (not wanting to let go of their power trip to be lord and master over a small community of people).

Here are 2 of my most recent power trips.

1. One homeowner has had a toilet and a refrigerator in his front yard for 6+ months now. He simply ignored all our letters requesting he clean it up. We didn't even know about it until all his neighbors got absolutely sick of looking at it and sent in multiple complaints. Per our Bylaws, we should have fined him 30 days after the FIRST warning letter 5 months ago.

We are going to CRUSH HIM and his family for his toilet yard art!!!... with a $100 fine...

I absolutely revel in my power!!! Feel my wraith!!!

2. Another homeowner with multiple rentals now uses one of his vacant lots as a dump site for his construction business with a pile of construction trash that literally covers half of his lot... Damn those pesky neighbors that keep complaining and ratting on this poor owner that just wants to brighten our neighborhood with his trash pile... Maybe I just misunderstand? Maybe he just wants to start another business? Being in a rural area and with rising gas prices, maybe he plans to turn it into a landfill and we should dump all our trash there too!

Nah... Now I get to flex my tyrannical powers and drive him into poverty with... a $100 fine...

I AM GOD!

I just LOVE spending MY OWN PERSONAL time sending letter after letter being Lord and MASTER over these peons! Muwahahaha!

*rolls eyes*

FredO (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GnomeX on 09/07/2013 11:24 PM
Posted By FredO on 09/07/2013 10:16 PM

Here are 2 of my most recent power trips.

1. One homeowner has had a toilet and a refrigerator in his front yard for 6+ months now. He simply ignored all our letters requesting he clean it up. We didn't even know about it until all his neighbors got absolutely sick of looking at it and sent in multiple complaints. Per our Bylaws, we should have fined him 30 days after the FIRST warning letter 5 months ago.

We are going to CRUSH HIM and his family for his toilet yard art!!!... with a $100 fine...

I absolutely revel in my power!!! Feel my wraith!!!

2. Another homeowner with multiple rentals now uses one of his vacant lots as a dump site for his construction business with a pile of construction trash that literally covers half of his lot... Damn those pesky neighbors that keep complaining and ratting on this poor owner that just wants to brighten our neighborhood with his trash pile... Maybe I just misunderstand? Maybe he just wants to start another business? Being in a rural area and with rising gas prices, maybe he plans to turn it into a landfill and we should dump all our trash there too!

Nah... Now I get to flex my tyrannical powers and drive him into poverty with... a $100 fine...

I AM GOD!

I just LOVE spending MY OWN PERSONAL time sending letter after letter being Lord and MASTER over these peons! Muwahahaha!

*rolls eyes*

So, in item number 1 you sent a letter for the owner to clean up the "art" in his yard 5 months ago and then never did a follow up visit? Sounds like the HOA Board Member dropped the ball on this one! Sounds like your complaint process is a little vague or whatever? The HOA I live in, our complaint process states that a Homeowner must make a complaint in writing. Send it to the MC who will forward it to the board members. Then a Board member will go and verify the complaint and make sure it is valid. Then a non-compliance letter will be sent. These letter's indicate that you have two weeks to correct the non-compliance or be fined if the situation continues. However, before a fine is levied, the offender is entitled to a hearing in executive session with the board. (this is something I have seen violated by the board on a number of occasions. They try to bluff the homeowner into fixing the issue and paying the fine)

The good side is that we have a process that works for long term things like you describe in both cases. The bad side of this process is that there is no way to catch speeders or reckless drivers (who we have in this community) or any of the noise violations from weekend parties and such.

Seems like your governing documents and procedures are working for you...... *rolls eyes too*

Like I said, everyone's experience with HOA's is different. I am not stating that all HOA's or Board members are bad. Neither am I stating that Owners are right. Just that the reality of the situation is that there many board members who fit the model. This forum is filled with thousands of posts from people seeking advice on questionable practices/situations from board members.

I have yet to see a general member of an HOA post on this forum about how great their experience is and how thankful they are for the selfless service of their hard working volunteer board members.

Having been a board member in the past (at my prior HOA before moving to this current one), I know what Board members go through and the number of hours they spend of their own time, doing this job. (Been there done that - still willing to do it too!)

I understand the plight of Board members having to deal with owners who have not read their documents. I have suggested that our monthly newsletter, send out one section at a time of the more commonly violated CC&R's and rules. It seems people would be more willing to read the monthly letter than pick up our thick homeowner handbook....

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

✓ Ask follow-up questions
✓ Share your experience
✓ Get expert advice
✓ Access 350,000 discussions

Create Free Account →
⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here

Terms of Use and Privacy Statement