HOA dysfunctional with fees assessed for no benefit to members

Started by ErinH1 • 30 replies • 3045 views

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ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Hello,

I am a unwilling member of a lake HOA in California. I will not mention the community as it would violate the posting rules. I will say tht we live in Agoura Hills, California.

I was forced into this HOA by purchasing a home in a barren real estate market. It was either get into the association or lose the house. At the time they were charging 120.00 per month. No big deal.

Well, after learning of the mess that this HOA has gotten all of us into, there are many people not happy AT ALL.

Here are some facts:

1) They dug a whole in a ground and call it a Lake. It is not a lake. It's a hole in the ground that collects run off water from a golf course. A poorly managed and maintained golf course that no one uses. I am an avid golfer and I wouldn't even take one of my cousins there to play and they are just learning.

2) The water coming off the golf course is full of fertilizers. This causes the lake to have many problems. The lake has had to been dredged and has constant problems with wildlife and fish dying.

3) Many of the people who get to enjoy the views from this lake are not even in the association. Those who are paying the dues live mostly away from the lake.

4) I've never seen ANYONE using the lake. There is one guy who "maintains" the lake. This is a paid position.

5) The facilities that they claim as benefits are very old and run down. I've never met a HOA member that uses them.

6) Notice was just given to the residents that the corporation that maintains the golf course and "manages" it, can no longer pay to maintain the golf course. Again, no one uses this golf course, it's crap. A money pit.

7) The HOA is now sending letters warning that they are going to be raising our assessments to pay for the golf course that no one uses.

Is there anything that homeowners can do to get out of a dysfunctional HOA that has run itself into the ground and is financially irresponsible?

We are in DIRE need of someone's help. They are planning to screw us.

Help in Agoura Hills: Thank you.

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Question: Was the HOA formed before or after you moved there?

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Erin,

If you bought a home where the HOA was in existence, you willingly did so. Sorry you don't like your HOA.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ErinH1 on 09/04/2013 7:24 PM

I am a unwilling member of a lake HOA in California. . .
I was forced into this HOA by purchasing a home in a barren real estate market. It was either get into the association or lose the house. . .

Well, since you chose to purchase the property, you were willing to become a member.
You may or may not have been fully informed of what you were getting into, but you did make a conscious decision to purchase property that was part of a covenanted community.

Quote:

Posted By ErinH1 on 09/04/2013 7:24 PM

Is there anything that homeowners can do to get out of a dysfunctional HOA that has run itself into the ground and is financially irresponsible?

Two options:

1) Sell and move.
2) Consult with an attorney to review your deed and see if the covenants were improperly attached to the property. If the attorney believes that they were, then you would need to petition the court for a ruling.

The other option is to become involved in the running of the Association so you can be part of the decision process to make the Association financially responsible. If you are still under declarant control, this may not be possible until the Association is turned over to the membership. However, if the Association has been turned over to the members, then all you need to do is gather support and vote those who are currently making the decisions for the Association off the Board and replace them with yourself and/or others who think as you do.

I know that this isn't really what you wanted to hear.
However, I hope it helps.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Erin,

Let me try and offer a little more understanding.

What an Association is required to maintain should be indentified within your governing documents. The Association should not be maintaining anything else.
It sounds like you may need to review your governing documents to determine if the golf course is or isn't a responsibility of the Association.

Is your Association still under control of the Declarant (developer)?
If it is, then typically the developer has the voting power to change the documents to specify what is to be maintained.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

HI all,

Yes, I am very familiar with the fact that I made the choice. There really was no choice for us. There are NO houses on the market in the last 3+ years worth buying.

Thank you all for responding. The options are very slim we understand.

My real questions are if you can get a state agency or something to dissolve one of these or start a class or something if the HOA becomes defunct and dysfunctional. They are potentially talking about raising assessments from roughly 100$ per month to well into the 600$ range for several years.

As most HOAs are scams set up by lawyers, I'm pretty sure they are covered legally.

People cannot afford 600 dollar HOAs.

The golf course corporation is responsible for the golf course and management, UNLESS they can't pay for it and give it up, THEN the association is responsible.

They sent us some really nice letters trying to LUBE us up for the news that we are sure is coming soon. These people are incompetent. This lake is a hole in the ground with no recreational value, and they keep sinking money into it.

What is fishy, no pun intended is that they say they sink all this money into the lake, and no one can figure out how. 3 million dollars to dredge a lake that is no more than .5 mile long and .75 miles the other way. I could throw a rock over top of it.

Anyhow, thanks folks. Seems we are screwed.

I know one thing, there are hundreds of people in this HOA unwillingly that want out and if they raise assessments 300-500 dollars they are going to be in deep doo doo with their members. All %@$#*$^##@@# is gonna break out.

Thanks again!

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Erin you need to check the davis-stirling act which regulates HOA's in CA, the easiest way is to visit http://www.davis-stirling.com This is an attorney website but it has links to specific items of interest. This is one you might find enlightening:

Notwithstanding more restrictive limitations placed on the board by the governing documents, the board of directors may increase regular assessments (dues) by up to 20% of the association's preceding fiscal year without membership approval. (Civ. Code §1366(b).) The 20% increase is calculated on all budget expenses for the prior year--that includes reserve contributions.

Membership Approval. Regular assessments over 20% require the approval of a majority of a quorum of owners. (Civ. Code §1366(b).) The statute defines "quorum" to mean more than 50% of the owners of an association. The governing documents of an association cannot increase or decrease the approval requirements for membership approval. Any such changes are voided by Civil Code §1366(b). Voting is done by secret ballot.

Or this one:

Boards are allowed to special assess the membership up to 5% of the current year's budgeted gross expenses without membership approval regardless of any limitations that might be found in the governing documents. (Civ. Code §1366(b).)

How Determined. If an association's annual budget is $100,000, then the maximum special assessment the board can impose without membership approval is $5,000. That does not mean $5,000 per unit. The $5,000 assessment is divided among all units according to the allocation schedule contained in the CC&Rs.

Notice Requirement. If the assessment is approved, proper notice must be given before it can be implemented.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

Yes, I am very familiar with the fact that I made the choice. There really was no choice for us. There are NO houses on the market in the last 3+ years worth buying.

You had choices, you chose one you didn't like. You could have rented until you found something you liked.

Quote:

What is fishy, no pun intended is that they say they sink all this money into the lake, and no one can figure out how. 3 million dollars to dredge a lake that is no more than .5 mile long and .75 miles the other way.

The HOA may be required by law to maintain the lake. City/state/federal/epa, etc ordinances.

You can move.... or you really need to find out more about how your HOA is run, list of expenses, common areas, etc. Leaving an HOA is pretty much impossible. Its like saying you dont want to be part of your city anymore, but refuse to move. The city isnt going to let you leave and make your own city, its just silly even discussing it.

You seem to only have a small understanding about why your HOA exists, its expenses and only see the the downside of paying more. You need to educate yourself about your own HOA and how it works. Maybe even run for office.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Your frustration is typical among home owners who don't understand how an HOA is run and its expenses. I understand why your venting.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Hey folks,

Thanks again for replying.

Here is where I think the caveat is with MOST members in an association. They are VERY secretive. They publish numbers on expenses with NO BACKUP whatsoever. Since it's well known and publicized that many HOAs are just pocket lining projects for lawyers, folks get defensive and want to fight.

There are many numbers suspect in the financials that our HOA publicizes.

I think it's a money making scam.

What they need to do is get rid of this crap golf course, fill in this hole in the ground that they call a lake, and make it an awesome park for the families here. They are fighting the economy. No one uses this course. It's garbage. Golfers in the association don't even use it. It's run down, not a challenge to play, and feels like you stepped back in time when you go to it. I play golf 3 days a week at the many awesome courses in this area. This course is doomed from a financial standpoint.

BUT, they won't do that or they will lose the money that they're making. It's ALL about money.

No one in the HOA membership will ever be able to prove that people running the HOA are not scalping money from it.

Legal it is. Right it is not.

Anyway, no need to tell me I made the choice, I know that.

Let's just see the power in numbers when they anger the entire membership base trying to keep this whole thing going in vain.

Members will emerge from the association when the assessments are raised to try and keep it all afloat.

Thanks again.

Frustrated.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

No one in the HOA membership will ever be able to prove that people running the HOA are not scalping money from it.

I disagree. It's very easy to track money.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Hey, can't thank you enough for taking time to keep replying to me.

I think the issue is Steve, it takes MONEY to chase money.

If there was a time where homeowners do not have the money to hire lawyers to track down what the HOA really did with the money, it is now.

People are really hurting in California, even the upper middle class. Only the RICH RICH are doing Ok.

And here comes the HOA again for more money.

I do AGREE with you that money can be followed, but there is a cost for that too.

I guess it all comes down to breaking points. They'll come with the hand out until the members bite that hand.

You guys are great. Thanks.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

I would expect that California, of all places, would have laws preventing people from being forced into purchasing real estate. I recommend checking with an attorney. That just doesn't seem legal.

Or are you saying that the opportunity cost of purchasing real estate was that the home you wanted existed within the bounds of an HOA? In that case, no, you weren't forced into anything at all.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

No, dude, they came to my apartment at the bottom of the housing market when rates were the best (3.47) and threw me in a van with a hood on my head and drove me to an escrow office and forced me to sign a stack of documents the size of a small child.

They were arrested, but I'm still stuck with this house. The evidence against them is pretty good, as we got the vans license plate as they drove away from the scene of the crime.

I'll keep you all informed though.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ErinH1 on 09/04/2013 7:24 PM
Hello,

I am a unwilling member of a lake HOA in California. I will not mention the community as it would violate the posting rules. I will say tht we live in Agoura Hills, California.

I was forced into this HOA by purchasing a home in a barren real estate market. It was either get into the association or lose the house. At the time they were charging 120.00 per month. No big deal.

Well, after learning of the mess that this HOA has gotten all of us into, there are many people not happy AT ALL.

Here are some facts:

1) They dug a whole in a ground and call it a Lake. It is not a lake. It's a hole in the ground that collects run off water from a golf course. A poorly managed and maintained golf course that no one uses. I am an avid golfer and I wouldn't even take one of my cousins there to play and they are just learning.

2) The water coming off the golf course is full of fertilizers. This causes the lake to have many problems. The lake has had to been dredged and has constant problems with wildlife and fish dying.

3) Many of the people who get to enjoy the views from this lake are not even in the association. Those who are paying the dues live mostly away from the lake.

4) I've never seen ANYONE using the lake. There is one guy who "maintains" the lake. This is a paid position.

5) The facilities that they claim as benefits are very old and run down. I've never met a HOA member that uses them.

6) Notice was just given to the residents that the corporation that maintains the golf course and "manages" it, can no longer pay to maintain the golf course. Again, no one uses this golf course, it's crap. A money pit.

7) The HOA is now sending letters warning that they are going to be raising our assessments to pay for the golf course that no one uses.

Is there anything that homeowners can do to get out of a dysfunctional HOA that has run itself into the ground and is financially irresponsible?

We are in DIRE need of someone's help. They are planning to screw us.

Help in Agoura Hills: Thank you.

You seem to have issues with this "lake" that's "just a hole in the ground", but it's also nearly a mile long and a half mile wide. Just out of curiosity, what do your HOA documents say about the lake's purpose?

Though the lake is terrible, you have an issue with people outside of your HOA benefitting visually because they can see it? And? People not in my HOA can drive through and see that it's a nice, well-kept neighborhood. I'll assume that they get some sort of visual satisfaction or gratification from that, even though they pay no dues. We even have people not in our HOA walk on our walking path. Again, without paying dues.

People only seem to use the lake when you're not looking. Again, the stated purpose of the lake is???

Golf course runoff is affecting the lake. Finally a tangible issue. Have you raised this concern to either the HOA board or the golf course board? Of course you have, so what was their response?

What did the board say about the condition of the facilities when you asked? Naturally you also asked for a copy of the most recent reserve study, so how did it look regarding those facilities? Were they accurately represented as far as condition and estimated cost to repair/replace goes?

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Erin is obviously upset. Eventually she will cool down and hopefully get involved in her hoa to make it better.

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ErinH1 on 09/05/2013 4:31 PM
No, dude, they came to my apartment at the bottom of the housing market when rates were the best (3.47) and threw me in a van with a hood on my head and drove me to an escrow office and forced me to sign a stack of documents the size of a small child.

They were arrested, but I'm still stuck with this house. The evidence against them is pretty good, as we got the vans license plate as they drove away from the scene of the crime.

I'll keep you all informed though.

LOL at least you have wit and humor about it all.

The devil will contract your soul. Bankers will just take 30 years of your life.

What a deal!!!

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ErinH1 on 09/04/2013 10:26 PM
Yes, I am very familiar with the fact that I made the choice. There really was no choice for us. There are NO houses on the market in the last 3+ years worth buying.

Really in this market, no houses. Translation: I fell in love with this one and didn't do my due diligence before buying it.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Yah, really in this market. Don't be an #%$# hole. We fought for homes in this area for 11 months, everytime something came on the market, within minutes there were back up and contingency offers. We had to move and we had to move fast. You clearly do not understand the area where we bought. I've kept my comments respectful. Do the same please.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ErinH1 on 09/06/2013 9:56 AM
Yah, really in this market. Don't be an #%$# hole. We fought for homes in this area for 11 months, everytime something came on the market, within minutes there were back up and contingency offers. We had to move and we had to move fast. You clearly do not understand the area where we bought. I've kept my comments respectful. Do the same please.

With all due respect, he's absolutely right.
Your rush to purchase a house meant that you ended up making a decision without sufficiently assessing the neighborhood to determine if it was a good fit for you.

Your options are:
Complain
Do something to improve the situation
Move

So far, it sounds as if you're committed to the first as a primary focus.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

it is NOT a lake

it IS: "an engineered storm water retention basin" which is REQUIRED as per the ammended federal clean wate act of ?1977? and/or ?1982?

it is DESIGNED as a settling catch basin for run-off

it WILL require EXPENSIVE regular ongoing maintenance whether there is a golf course or not ~ incl. dredging at 15-20 year intervals

it is the main purpose for the existance of the HOA

facts are facts

CAVEAT EMPTOR

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 09/06/2013 3:25 PM
it is NOT a lake

it IS: "an engineered storm water retention basin" which is REQUIRED as per the ammended federal clean wate act of ?1977? and/or ?1982?

it is DESIGNED as a settling catch basin for run-off

it WILL require EXPENSIVE regular ongoing maintenance whether there is a golf course or not ~ incl. dredging at 15-20 year intervals

it is the main purpose for the existance of the HOA

facts are facts

CAVEAT EMPTOR

Really? So every intentional body of water in an HOA is a retention basin? You sure about that? and there's no way that a retention basin could also be a lake? If it's a sizable permanent body of water, it matters little how it got there. It's a lake.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

98+% sure

lets call it an engineered lake

it WILL require dredging as it fills with silt and settlement debris as it was designed to do

it MUST be restored to its original engineered 'specs' periodically

its purpose is to filter the run-off from the newly constructed impermeable surfaces called homes, roads, driveways, etc. which replaced the natural vegitation

read it and weep

you can pay the county high property taxws to maintain it or you can pay the HOA high 'dues' ~ either way it WILL be expensive

this is the price we all will be paying for clean drinking water

ps. the developer did not dig a lake out of the goodness of his heart, the lake was both a source of 'fill' to elevate the homes AND a storm water retention basin AND, best of all from his point of view, A MARKETING TOOL (which juuuuuust happened to be required by federal legislation) ~ does 'lot premium' ring a bell ?

CAVEAT EMPTOR

if the truth hurts, bury your head in the sand

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

John you are 10% correct on what this "lake" is.

ErinH1 (California)
Posts: 17

Posted:

I meant to say 1000%

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Erin

A close reading of your documents, plats, etc. might show that this "lake" is the responsibility of the HOA. This would be typical. Lake or not, like it or not, it is more then likely a retention/drainage/run-off/ etc. for the HOA thus it is the responsibility of the HOA.

We have one. It is lovely. Has a fountain, is spring fed, stocked with fish, walking path around it, etc. We can call it what we want. Lake, pond, oasis, grotto, etc. but in the eyes of the county it is designated a "damn old retention pond" and our HOA is responsible for it.

GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253

Posted:

We often get criticisms like Erin's about the expense of maintaining common areas with little benefit (perceived or otherwise) to the members.

Erin, you and the majority of members may not use these common areas personally, but often the HOA is still legally responsible for them. Often these areas can be more of a LEGAL LIABILITY should your association fail to maintain them and incur costs MUCH GREATER than ANY maintenance costs.

Case in point is 3 years ago we had numerous dangerous trees in an HOA greenbelt park that are adjacent to a homeowner's house that we had to cut down. In prior years, several of these trees had already fallen on his house and one vehicle causing thousands of dollars in damage to his property. However this gentleman was kind enough to use his own insurance company to pay for the damages. He put his foot down and demanded we take down the other dangerous trees in this greenbelt park as he would sue the HOA next time it happened. He would have won in my opinion.

So we spent close to $6,000 in taking out these dangerous trees. We had a sh***storm at the next annual meeting where members were accusing the Board of wasting money.

So we spent almost $6,000 to mitigate the risk of buying someone a new house next time it happened. Yet we are the bad guys for it. No one uses the greenbelt park areas. They present no clear benefit to the members except for aesthetics, so people just deride us for maintaining them. Had we NOT acted, and another tree fell on this guy's house, the same people accusing us of wasting money sure as hell would have been at the next meeting deriding us for NOT ACTING should another tree fell on his house resulting in a lawsuit.

Your Board may be facing similar circumstances.

FredO (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

Erin,

Who owns the property that the Golf course is on?
You said that there is or was a company that managed and operated that golf course.

Was the golf course private for HOA members only? Is the golf course located completely inside of the HOA owned property?

Is it possible for the HOA to find another company to run and manage the golf course? Maybe open it up as a public course.

If so, maybe there is a way to have the golf course self funded with a little extra to go towards the lake maintenance????
This might be a solution to help keep your monthly dues at an acceptable level.

Not sure how this would work or if it impacts the HOA non-profit status. I am sure a proper lawyer could advise on this aspect.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

Erin

What is the name of the golf course? Lindero Canyon?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

Erin
If it is Lindero, I used to work down the street on Canwood and know someone who can help you. Send me an email at [email protected].

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