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MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Let's get to the TRUTH of a HOA and what it is. A HOA is typically a non-profit corporation. It is NOT one of which is considered a
"charity" to make donations too. Matter of fact donating or raising money outside of dues collection is subjected too taxation. There are a few "For-Profit" HOA's out there. However, most operate the same as non-profit and a majority of posters here are not part of one. For posting purposes, the information will be for Non-profit and owner operated.

HOA's were developed as "Sales tools" by developers/builders. It was a way to attract buyers to purchase by offering restrictions to the property or share costs of amenities. It's much cheaper 100 people owning a pool than 100 people having separate pools. The idea was to attract buyers into believing having restrictions and the ability to apply those restrictions would keep "home values" at an even keel or raise. The truth is that home values are not based on attractiveness or restrictions. It is based on numbers and facts. Those being location, size, amenities, and the price of homes sold/foreclosed on in a few mile radius. You may have a home that looks like a "million bucks" but does not mean it will sell for it. It just means it is more likely to be more ATTRACTIVE to a purchaser. The appraisal value of the lender is what you buy the house for.

HOA's are: Funded, managed, and operated by it's members. (When it's turned over to the owners). That means that whatever money the HOA collects in dues is to be used for it's operating costs and necessities. Don't collect enough money, your HOA may cut back on many of it's services. The board are elected from the general membership to represent the general membership on the daily operation of the HOA. They may do it themselves as self-managed or hire a Management company. HOA's are all VOLUNTEERS only. There is NO PAY or compensation made to the board nor owners. Basically, if you want something done in your HOA you either do it yourselves or raise the money to pay someone else to do it.

HOA's are mini-governments and quasi-corporations. They do act like governments in documents changes and elections. They act as corporations as if the President was to quit, the Vice-President does not automatically fill that slot. A new election amongst the board members can be held or maybe an appointment. There are limits on the responsibilities of each officer position. One can not always do the other one's job. Make sure to read your documents.

The main documents in a HOA are: CC&R's, Articles of Incorporation, and By-laws. You may have ACC documents as well. By-laws and ACC documents are INTERNAL documents to the HOA. The CC&R's are COUNTY filed documents and go with the deeds. Articles of Incorporation are STATE documents and are what incorporates the HOA. The CC&R's and Articles of Incorporations are the PUBLIC documents of the HOA and available at the Records department of the local courthouse. Some states makes it mandatory the seller turn them over to the buyer. Many states makes it the buyer's only responsibility. The HOA can give out or charge for a copy, but are considered a "courtesy" as you are NOT an owner/member until you sign the line.

These are just some of the FACTS about HOA's. You may not like them or they may not always apply for your state. I am sure other posters will post additional facts or clarifications. It's just you need to get an understanding of HOA's so you can grasp how to deal with living in one. Once you understand a few things you can then see where your problems or solutions may lie. Don't expect your board members to know this information. They most likely don't. It's a learning experience and the ONLY qualification to being in a HOA is to be an owner. That's it! So educate yourself if you are just an owner or a board member. A little knowledge can go a looong way!!!

Former HOA President
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
HOA's were developed in large part to keep "undesirables" (blacks & Jews) out. Now days they are forced upon developers by cities, counties & townships as a condition to let them build.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am not sure about the "being forced" to create HOA's. It's kind of a tax-break type situation with "incentives". It is more likely cities offer the developers tax breaks so that they bring more tax dollars to the city/county. The more homes built, the more taxes generated by homeowners to the area.


Former HOA President
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Homes generate very little in the way of income for the cities. Yes I know property taxes seem outrageous but when you break down the amount that actually makes it to city coffers to pay for essential services, it's not that much. Cities require HOA's because they don't have the revenue to pay for expanded services and expand things like parks and other amenities. Gone are the days when developers could buy up some farmland, build a tract of homes, make their money and leave.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 08/27/2013 2:38 PM
HOA's were developed in large part to keep "undesirables" (blacks & Jews) out. Now days they are forced upon developers by cities, counties & townships as a condition to let them build.

Agree! HOA's are the outgrowth of "restricted" subdivisions. I recall seeing the CC&R's for one such restricted subdivision that kept out not only Blacks and Jews, but Catholics, Italians, Hispanics, Slavs, all eastern Europeans, and all others of non-European ancestry.
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/27/2013 2:53 PM
I am not sure about the "being forced" to create HOA's.

In my part of the country almost all towns require the developer to form an HOA as a condition for building.

Personally, I would have no problem with that if the CC&R's provided only for maintaining the common elements. The problems arise when the developers are allowed to create CC&R's that try to regulate what owners may do with their properties.
PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
Yet another melissa manifesto... "The HOA TRUTH".

How narcissistic.

It's the TRUTH as YOU see it!

To elevate your experiences and opinions to FACTual status is vainglorious.

But to be fair, I'm a bit of a hypocrite.

You see I can't make it through one of these things.

I just get bored.

So, I read the pithy replies.

These frequently point out the inaccuracies and subjectivity contained therein.

And for me... that's the TRUTH!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Spoken by someone who has never read a single HOA document or followed one... Or even volunteered to do so without complaining about something. Still did not see one single piece of debate material in your response... just insults... which leads one to believe you got nothing....

Former HOA President
GregZ (Oregon)
Posts: 1
Posted:
I am as well.
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posted:
Peter,

Well said!

I tend to skip Melissa's musings, too. The replies are always better reading.
FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276
Posted:
Pool party anyone?
SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Only if you have big boobs and no blubber. So you men out there with man-boobs can't come. Smiley face. (don't know how to put that in)
FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276
Posted:
Sharon,

They are called "natural flotation devices" just to keep this site G rated

FYI, smiley faces are done the standard approach, use a colon followed by the parenthesis and it will post as a smiley face.
JayP3 (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/27/2013 6:01 PM
Spoken by someone who has never read a single HOA document or followed one... Or even volunteered to do so without complaining about something. Still did not see one single piece of debate material in your response... just insults... which leads one to believe you got nothing....

Sure, I often agree with Peter.

This time is no different.

But Melissa, you're just making his point with your sloppy retort.

If you review his posts, as Tim has recently pointed out how to do, and I did, you'd see he has quite a good understanding of Florida's HOA Statutes... IMO.

I also found he HAS been a BOD member AND an ARC member.

If you find other peoples opinions insults, then you are the most insulting with your verbose, unsolicited, opining.

If you can't stand the heat...

JayP
RayM6 (Virginia)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/27/2013 2:26 PM
Let's get to the TRUTH of a HOA and what it is. A HOA is typically a non-profit corporation. It is NOT one of which is considered a
"charity" to make donations too. Matter of fact donating or raising money outside of dues collection is subjected too taxation. There are a few "For-Profit" HOA's out there. However, most operate the same as non-profit and a majority of posters here are not part of one. For posting purposes, the information will be for Non-profit and owner operated.

HOA's were developed as "Sales tools" by developers/builders. It was a way to attract buyers to purchase by offering restrictions to the property or share costs of amenities. It's much cheaper 100 people owning a pool than 100 people having separate pools. The idea was to attract buyers into believing having restrictions and the ability to apply those restrictions would keep "home values" at an even keel or raise. The truth is that home values are not based on attractiveness or restrictions. It is based on numbers and facts. Those being location, size, amenities, and the price of homes sold/foreclosed on in a few mile radius. You may have a home that looks like a "million bucks" but does not mean it will sell for it. It just means it is more likely to be more ATTRACTIVE to a purchaser. The appraisal value of the lender is what you buy the house for.

HOA's are: Funded, managed, and operated by it's members. (When it's turned over to the owners). That means that whatever money the HOA collects in dues is to be used for it's operating costs and necessities. Don't collect enough money, your HOA may cut back on many of it's services. The board are elected from the general membership to represent the general membership on the daily operation of the HOA. They may do it themselves as self-managed or hire a Management company. HOA's are all VOLUNTEERS only. There is NO PAY or compensation made to the board nor owners. Basically, if you want something done in your HOA you either do it yourselves or raise the money to pay someone else to do it.

HOA's are mini-governments and quasi-corporations. They do act like governments in documents changes and elections. They act as corporations as if the President was to quit, the Vice-President does not automatically fill that slot. A new election amongst the board members can be held or maybe an appointment. There are limits on the responsibilities of each officer position. One can not always do the other one's job. Make sure to read your documents.

The main documents in a HOA are: CC&R's, Articles of Incorporation, and By-laws. You may have ACC documents as well. By-laws and ACC documents are INTERNAL documents to the HOA. The CC&R's are COUNTY filed documents and go with the deeds. Articles of Incorporation are STATE documents and are what incorporates the HOA. The CC&R's and Articles of Incorporations are the PUBLIC documents of the HOA and available at the Records department of the local courthouse. Some states makes it mandatory the seller turn them over to the buyer. Many states makes it the buyer's only responsibility. The HOA can give out or charge for a copy, but are considered a "courtesy" as you are NOT an owner/member until you sign the line.

These are just some of the FACTS about HOA's. You may not like them or they may not always apply for your state. I am sure other posters will post additional facts or clarifications. It's just you need to get an understanding of HOA's so you can grasp how to deal with living in one. Once you understand a few things you can then see where your problems or solutions may lie. Don't expect your board members to know this information. They most likely don't. It's a learning experience and the ONLY qualification to being in a HOA is to be an owner. That's it! So educate yourself if you are just an owner or a board member. A little knowledge can go a looong way!!!

Who is the audience for this post? If it is for those who are new to HOA's, or understanding real estate, I would encourage those folks to do additional research on how HOA's work before regarding this post as actual, absolute fact for HOA's. Some of what is presented may be opinion or based on experience. In my opinion, the most appropriate statements in this post are that individuals should read the governing documents, and some of the requirements, restrictions and such can be different depending on those as well as the State in which the HOA resides. Please, if you are going to present items as FACT, kindly cite relevant sources or data so that those of us who disagree, or are new to the HOA environment can verify or be certain they actually are. Some of what you present may be accurate, but some is based on your perspective or experience, which may not be absolute FACT. Many issues may be dependent on state laws or the by-laws of HOA's - which can be different and not absolute FACT for everyone. Sharing your experience and perspectives may be very helpful to those who are new or searching for assistance. Positioning things as FACT when they are actually opinions or suppositions detracts from the credibility of the board, and can be harmful to those less experienced. Some of what you mention is not true, or complete truth, or speculation;

1. "most operate the same as non-profit and a majority of posters here are not part of one." - Please cite your sources. How do you know that most operate the same as non-profit, and where can we find out how many posters here are part of one. Do you really know the numbers, or are you speculating?

2. "HOA's were developed as Sales tools" - this is one reason among many. It's not the only reason. Initially, HOA development was perhaps driven by reasons other than real estate sales. The relevance to this board is that they exist, there are perceived pros/cons, and educating oneself on the requirements/processes can be helpful in understanding how they work, and how to change things.

3. "The appraisal value of the lender is what you buy the house for." No, the purchase price is what the buyer and seller agree to. The appraisal value of the lender is the basis for how much they will lend to the purchaser.

4. "HOA's are all VOLUNTEERS only." Is this absolutely true, or is it determined by state law and/or by-laws?

5. "Don't expect your board members to know this information." Actually, I think that is a very reasonable expectation

6. "They most likely don't." - how do you know? is this a FACT, or your opinion based on your dealing with others?

7. "The ONLY qualification to being in a HOA is to be an owner." - True? It could be if that's what the HOA documents say. Could there be other allowances or encumberances? Can renters be in an HOA? Am I in the HOA if I am not in good standing? More clarity and explanation needed to define this as FACT.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/27/2013 2:26 PM
You may have a home that looks like a "million bucks" but does not mean it will sell for it. It just means it is more likely to be more ATTRACTIVE to a purchaser. The appraisal value of the lender is what you buy the house for.

So people are unable to buy houses with good old fashioned cash? Or do they also need to seek out a lender appraisal in order to find out how much they're allowed to pay for a house? Sure glad I read this forum.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Melissa,

You are dead wrong. The appraisal value is what the mortgage is based on. The Loan-to-Value on a purchase is based on the purchase price or the appraisal value, which is less. The property tax you pay is based solely on the price you paid for the house/property.
PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/27/2013 6:01 PM
Spoken by someone who has never read a single HOA document or followed one... Or even volunteered to do so without complaining about something. Still did not see one single piece of debate material in your response... just insults... which leads one to believe you got nothing....

Melissa,

It seems you are eager to help and share your knowledge. That's admirable.

But often much of your lengthy postings are neither helpful nor knowledgeable.

This continually erodes your credibility.

Stick to what you know or can prove with references before declaring 'it' as the truth, fact, or otherwise.

It's easy to find information to support your statements BEFORE you publish them, and just as easy for others to find information that contradicts them (when applicable).

So be prepard for this to happen.

Your statement above about my experiences further exemplifies this.
There's no way for you to prove what you stated.

Talk about... "you got nothing"!

See ya' round.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Richard... Your appraisal is based on location, size of home, and the price of homes sold/foreclosed on in a few mile radius in the last 6 months. They compare 3 bedroom/2bath homes of similar size/condition to get the general home sale value. A 3 bedroom 2 bath house does NOT sale the same in Detroit as it does in Wyoming with Same size, same layout, and same property size. Property taxes/value is based on the property not home. Homes burn down, tornados hit, or earthquake destroys them. Property value is on the actual property and then structure is added on top of that.

There are many factors involved in home values and sales price. I generalized them for space and time. A home in a HOA is NOT guaranteed to hold any more value than a home outside of a HOA. It is the FACT that a HOA has more attractive features available so that owners would like to purchase. I would rather visit a pool than keep one in my back yard. Just like a tennis court or other amenity. It is cheaper to share and keep it private useage than own it individually. Thus making that an ATTRACTION value to the home in the HOA.

Many want to say that home values decreased whenever a neighbor or board breaks a rule. The honest truth is that is just something to say but not based in reality. Reality is, your neighbor's motorcycle trailer in their front yard, doesn't decrease the value of your home. It just makes a potential buyer think that they do not want to live there and purchase. Another buyer may think "Cool someone who loves motorcycles as much as me". The appraisal form for your house by the mortgage company hasn't changed because of it...

Former HOA President
RayM6 (Virginia)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/01/2013 8:51 AM
Richard... Your appraisal is based on location, size of home, and the price of homes sold/foreclosed on in a few mile radius in the last 6 months. They compare 3 bedroom/2bath homes of similar size/condition to get the general home sale value. A 3 bedroom 2 bath house does NOT sale the same in Detroit as it does in Wyoming with Same size, same layout, and same property size. Property taxes/value is based on the property not home. Homes burn down, tornados hit, or earthquake destroys them. Property value is on the actual property and then structure is added on top of that.

There are many factors involved in home values and sales price. I generalized them for space and time. A home in a HOA is NOT guaranteed to hold any more value than a home outside of a HOA. It is the FACT that a HOA has more attractive features available so that owners would like to purchase. I would rather visit a pool than keep one in my back yard. Just like a tennis court or other amenity. It is cheaper to share and keep it private useage than own it individually. Thus making that an ATTRACTION value to the home in the HOA.

Many want to say that home values decreased whenever a neighbor or board breaks a rule. The honest truth is that is just something to say but not based in reality. Reality is, your neighbor's motorcycle trailer in their front yard, doesn't decrease the value of your home. It just makes a potential buyer think that they do not want to live there and purchase. Another buyer may think "Cool someone who loves motorcycles as much as me". The appraisal form for your house by the mortgage company hasn't changed because of it...

Your original post says "the appraisal value of the lender is what you buy the house for." That statement is wrong. It is what the lender will base the amount they are willing to loan on the property. If there is no mortgage, there is no lender appraisal. A lender appraisal is very different than a real estate tax assessment. Appraisals/Appraisers use varying methodology based on market, type of loan, and the policies of the lender. So, your statement that appraisals are based on sales/for enclosures in the past 6 months is also wrong. The timeframe and comparables used may vary depending on the circumstance. Foreclosures may not even factor into an appraisal. Your inference that a motorcycle trailer doesn't impact the "value" of a home is also not true. It may not influence the appraisal or the assessment for taxes, but it may influence the market price at which a buyer is willing to pay to put up with it. So if I can't sell my house for the price I want because of a motorcycle trailer, or a chicken coop, or any other factor, and have to lower my asking price, then yes - the value is impacted.

It's great that you want to educate and help people. When you use terms like FACT, TRUTH, ALL, MOST, and REALITY, please be sure what you post is actually that. If not, you may do more harm than good.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/01/2013 8:51 AM
Richard... Your appraisal is based on location, size of home, and the price of homes sold/foreclosed on in a few mile radius in the last 6 months. They compare 3 bedroom/2bath homes of similar size/condition to get the general home sale value. A 3 bedroom 2 bath house does NOT sale the same in Detroit as it does in Wyoming with Same size, same layout, and same property size. Property taxes/value is based on the property not home. Homes burn down, tornados hit, or earthquake destroys them. Property value is on the actual property and then structure is added on top of that.

There are many factors involved in home values and sales price. I generalized them for space and time. A home in a HOA is NOT guaranteed to hold any more value than a home outside of a HOA. It is the FACT that a HOA has more attractive features available so that owners would like to purchase. I would rather visit a pool than keep one in my back yard. Just like a tennis court or other amenity. It is cheaper to share and keep it private useage than own it individually. Thus making that an ATTRACTION value to the home in the HOA.

Many want to say that home values decreased whenever a neighbor or board breaks a rule. The honest truth is that is just something to say but not based in reality. Reality is, your neighbor's motorcycle trailer in their front yard, doesn't decrease the value of your home. It just makes a potential buyer think that they do not want to live there and purchase. Another buyer may think "Cool someone who loves motorcycles as much as me". The appraisal form for your house by the mortgage company hasn't changed because of it...

Really? A HOA has more attractive features than a site with no HOA? That's a FACT?
My HOA has all sorts of restrictions that someone might find unpalatable. For example:
I can't set up a firing range in my backyard
I don't have enough room to ride my ATVs on my lot
I can't put a basketball net in my driveway
I can't have a 30x40 pole barn in my backyard
etc...

I don't swim, so I don't find a pool attractive. Nor do I play tennis. I would see both of those as unnecessary expenses if my association had them. Neither would make the HOA more attractive to me. And that is a FACT.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Melissa:

I can "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" in a court of law that a developer violating HOA Covenants can devalue collateral attached to security agreements and which in many states is illegal. In my state in two nearby cities a developer illegally changed the CCR's and affected the value of homes. One owner and their secured creditor in one city lost $170,000 and in another nearby city another owner and their secured creditor are out of pocket $145,000, due to Developer illegally changing the documents both owners and their secured creditors purchased under and defrauding both.

For you to state that HOA is not in place to protect values ... I would disagree. No citizen in the United States of America should be placed in the position of no longer owning a home, with a ruined credit record, and on top of that due due being forced into a "short sale" in order to sell their home also gets to have according to the Federal Tax Code their lender can issue to them a 1099 and they have to pay income tax on the money they and their lender have been defrauded. The owner defrauded in the amount of $145,000 can look forward to potentially paying up to $40,000 in income tax on the amount their lender lost due to the forced short sale.

Many news articles with regards to sale of property in my area will state .... CCR's in place to protect lifestyle and value of property.
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Just because your developer recorded a deed restriction doesn't make your Community a mandatory HOA. that's just the first step of a what 3 too 4 part Legal process any one that's not followed before the last lot is given up/sold by the developer.. Game over. unless the Community gets 100% participation to enact one and the 3 too 4 part legal process kicks back in. HOA or lawyers will feed you a line that's almost believable that your actually in a HOA.

Last step is the HOA Elected Board adopts the by-laws after making changes to them from the Developers initial set of by-laws that's re recorded.

What's confuses me is what is a Private streets in a HOA, where your forced to foot the bills for any street repairs? Maybe HOA's should be forced to install toll booths automated to collect money for future repairs to those HOA private Streets. But the neighborhood kids would stuff a hat or something and collect the funds.
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 12/14/2014 12:02 AM
Melissa:

I can "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" in a court of law that a developer violating HOA Covenants can devalue collateral attached to security agreements and which in many states is illegal. In my state in two nearby cities a developer illegally changed the CCR's and affected the value of homes. One owner and their secured creditor in one city lost $170,000 and in another nearby city another owner and their secured creditor are out of pocket $145,000, due to Developer illegally changing the documents both owners and their secured creditors purchased under and defrauding both.

For you to state that HOA is not in place to protect values ... I would disagree. No citizen in the United States of America should be placed in the position of no longer owning a home, with a ruined credit record, and on top of that due due being forced into a "short sale" in order to sell their home also gets to have according to the Federal Tax Code their lender can issue to them a 1099 and they have to pay income tax on the money they and their lender have been defrauded. The owner defrauded in the amount of $145,000 can look forward to potentially paying up to $40,000 in income tax on the amount their lender lost due to the forced short sale.

Many news articles with regards to sale of property in my area will state .... CCR's in place to protect lifestyle and value of property.

Also this scenario is illegal about secured collaterals, since federal bankruptcy laws forbids this kind of garbage. I can still walk away from my house and owe nothing.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
I can walk away from my reverse mortgage and leave you, the taxpayer, with my (now huge) debt. God Bless the USA
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
ALL,

This is an old thread (1 yr old) reactivated by a poster for an unknown reason as the post was removed.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
Merry Christ Mass

Happy Solstice

Happy Holidays

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