Are Ceiling Joists Common Area

Homeowner on the third floor of a three story condo decided to replace her ceiling and found the joist holding the ceilling were cracked. She did not ask, but told us the condo was responsible for the replacement. Her/friend contractor charges at least three times as any other contractors but if we're responsible she left us NO choice but to pay his fees. So my questions are 1) Are they common elements 2) can we get another bid for the job?

Thank you.

Karen,

The Association should have been contacted once the damage was noticed.

I would suggest an inspection of the area (even if it's only from the attic) to verify that the work was done. I would also have at least two other licensed contractors give you a bid on what it would have cost to do the work. Then either offer to pay the lowest or medium bid.

KarenF, In order to answer the first question we would need to know the exact words from your Declaration or CC&Rs that describe the boundaries of the Condo Unit.

If, as is often the case, and the ceiling joists are not defined as part of the Unit, then it would be Association responsibility to repair.

If Association responsibility, then the Association decides who does the work.

It's not an extraordinary cost. The joist was always broken, it just happened to be brought to your attention just recently. Her renovation has nothing to do with the HOA fixing a structural issue. If you feel the cost is excessive, yes you should get multiple estimates. If it's reasonable, just pay it.

Some condo docs say the owner owns the studs in (not including sheetrock). Some docs say painted walls in (sheetrock is owned by condo). Depends on what your say. In any case, the structure needs to be fixed. Doesn't matter how it was discovered.

We have plastered ceilings that she was replacing with dry walls when the cracked joists were discovered.

Karen that's not the point, the point is did she have the right to replace what I suspect was Association property? COA approval - building permit if required?
Did her friend by the act of removing the existing ceiling actually cause the cracks? Depending on local code, the joists might not need replacing, you might be able to "sister" a replacement joist to the ones that are cracked. This would require the COA to get it's own expert in to inspect.

I have never heard of someone replacing a ceiling just for the fun of it. The ceiling was likely cracked in the first place, so the owner decided to replace it. Ceilings do not normally crack without a reason and cracked ceiling joists would give plenty of reason for cracking.

So why would the joists crack? The easy answer is they were either too small or spaced to far apart. Or water from a leaking roof could have caused them to rot. Regardless of the cause, the joists needed to be replaced or else the new ceiling would have cracked because the cause had no been cured.

If there are other units immediately below the roof it might be wise to inspect their ceilings for cracks as it is unlikely that only one unit has a structural problem.

Johnc46... You are absolutely correct! If its common elements (I've learned through this post, that it is) then she was not authorized to have it replaced! I believe that's why I was so out of my element! Thank you Everyone for your help!

The governing documents

KarenF,

Are you a self-managed Association, or do you have a Management Company? Not that it makes a difference, but just as a point of interest.

You posted your documents state “that everything beyond the unit walls are common elements”. Would you be willing to post the exact words, as they really are quite important.

As others have posted, further investigation may be needed. And depending upon what is found, if the cracked joists did cause the ceiling to crack – then the whole job, including the new ceiling, may become Association responsibility to pay for.

But again it all depends upon how your Documents describe the parametric (perimeter) boundaries of the Condo Unit, and upon what further investigation finds.

What is above that that third floor ceiling – is it attic area? And if attic area, how do your documents define that area?

Also as GlenL posted, your local building inspector may have to “sign off” on any supporting joist repairs or replacement. Has anyone questioned the Contractor that was hired by the Unit Owner, to get additional details?

Based on my experience, when talking with the Contractor that did the work, keep in mind that not all builders/carpenters understand Condominiums and Common Elements, and may not even know the difference between what is owned by the Units Owner vs. what is Common and owned by the Association, or even think to ask.