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JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Our CC&Rs state that no one can run a home based business and I can't get the management company to tell me what the procedure for handling residents who are running home based businesses. I am asking because when I was on the board our power hungry new president was taking everyone to task for every little infraction and she said to me that no one could have a home based business. I told her that one of our fellow board members has a home based business and she said "but she doesn't make money at it!" I said "oh good I'll have her do my books for free and send all my friends, great!" She then said "oh!" Exactly, her stupidity runs deep. Does anyone know what the procedure is in this, should the management company send a cease and desist letter as they are wont to do for every little violation. They practice selective enforcement and we are at the mercy of this merciless board. Thanks
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Joyce,
Our procedure on a violation of a home business is to enforce only if it can be seen, heard, or smelled. In other words we need to be able to document the violation.
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posted:
What evidence is there that a business exists? A sign out front or a sign on the door? Customers coming and going? Trucks making deliveries? Machinery clanking away? Steam whistle signaling lunch hour?

Most cities have ordinances prohibiting businesses run from a home. You could start by contacting your zoning office to see what criteria they use for determining whether there is a violation. Working from home is not always the same as running a business out of a home. If there is no external evidence of business activity then it is no one's business what is happening inside the home.

If someone is causing problems by running a business from their home, start by making a complaint to your local zoning authority and let them handle the problem.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You need to define "Home based business". The intent of the rules in a HOA about businesses run from home is to NOT have professionals like "Dentist/Doctors" put a shingle up for business. That is what they mean by having the restriction on Home based business. Those that put up advertising and use the place as a business. Which if that is done a simple call to the IRS to report it helps out.

Now as far as those "Home based businesses" like Avon or those who receive packages this does NOT fall under the same umbrella of the law. One can have an online type or those who do a lot of mailing in their HOA. They just can't put a sign up in the front yard.

Think of it this way... Are they selling Tupperware or need a professional license like Doctor to practice? A practice is a NO... A stay at home mom/dad is a yes.

Former HOA President
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoyceN1 on 08/13/2013 11:57 AM
Our CC&Rs state that no one can run a home based business and I can't get the management company to tell me what the procedure for handling residents who are running home based businesses. I am asking because when I was on the board our power hungry new president was taking everyone to task for every little infraction and she said to me that no one could have a home based business. I told her that one of our fellow board members has a home based business and she said "but she doesn't make money at it!" I said "oh good I'll have her do my books for free and send all my friends, great!" She then said "oh!" Exactly, her stupidity runs deep. Does anyone know what the procedure is in this, should the management company send a cease and desist letter as they are wont to do for every little violation. They practice selective enforcement and we are at the mercy of this merciless board. Thanks

A business doesn't have to make money to require a business license or to require tax records.

If there is a problem of selective enforcement your board can be in trouble. If the pattern can be shown to be against protected classes (race, ethnicity, etc.), then someone could file a complaint with Fair Housing.

If someone is in violation of the CC&R, then someone needs to file a written complaint to the board. The board should then put it on the agenda for a closed executive session. Because it involves a board member, that board member should recuse his/herself.

If the board decides there is sufficient proof, then there should be a hearing.

However, if the complainant feels that because if involves a board member this complaint is being ignored and it is a known fact that the violation occurs even though other home businesses were forced to suspend their activities, the complainant could request alternative dispute resolution. You would basically be complaining that there is a home-based business and the board is ignoring you.

JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Appreciate all the input and while I have no problem with anyone running a home based business, as long as they aren't rebuilding engines in their garage, this president shuts everyone down with the exception of the fellow board member who runs a bookkeeping service from her home. She does make money at it and this president is an angry woman who is a gossip and practices selective enforcement in the community. And we are talking recall. I don't know if an injunction can be done, but I believe that is an option until this can be dealt with. She is fairly new to this community and wants to do what is in her best interest as a realtor. The woman with the business has told me and many other residents about her business and I was in her home and she showed me where she keeps all her home based business records. If it were not selective enforcement it would be one thing, but to have the board harass everyone else for the same violation and to have a board member be exempt is typical of this new board. One of the many reasons I resigned.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Fuel to the fire, but....

If i am busy rebuilding engines in my garage, and sell them on the internet to collectors of old muscle car engines, why is that the business of the HOA ANYMORE THAN someone who sells makeup from their garage, or does website design in their garage, or someone who repairs computers in their garage, or someone who plays World of Warcraft and sells bitcoins, magic items, and lives to other gamers in their garage.

Why is one thing I do in my garage a horrible crime against the HOA, and all the other businesses I run just fine, look the other way things? If I am doing inside my garage, what does the type of business matter? Shouldn't it be judged on the effects, or impact, of my business?

JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Brian, I seem to have hit a nerve with you. I won't try to explain the difference between bookkeeping and rebuilding engines.
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
BrianB its not anyone's business. I do not agree with Melissa's view of this. I believe that Avon sales most certainly can violate the 'no business' rule if customers are coming into the development to get their products. But if Avon girl delivers the products, then it should not matter. The test of a home business does not have to be whether they pay taxes or make money either. That is the problem with ambiguous wording. The board and residents should come to an agreement on a policy as to what constitutes a home business. And if you are thinking it should have something to do with traffic, think about the various activities that would cause regular additional traffic in the neighborhood: Seamstress, hair dresser, Tupperware, quilting guilds, prayer circles, piano lessons, poker games, dog grooming, girl scout meetings.... I can go on an on. What is the difference WHAT the person is doing to cause the extra traffic? Yes, there are certain glaring examples like working on numerous cars in the driveway or converting your garage into an office and putting up a "Taxes Done Here" sign. Come up with a policy and apply it equally.

In my opinion, the rule exists to limit traffic and/or strangers from coming and going in the neighborhood and limit unpleasant odors and noise and reasonable is the test.
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AllisonD on 08/14/2013 4:15 PM

In my opinion, the rule exists to limit traffic and/or strangers from coming and going in the neighborhood and limit unpleasant odors and noise and reasonable is the test.

Well said!
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoyceN1 on 08/14/2013 4:01 PM
Brian, I seem to have hit a nerve with you. I won't try to explain the difference between bookkeeping and rebuilding engines.

While the differences in the two occupations are clear, the difference in Brian's example as to the relative non-impact on anyone in the HOA is quite clear... there isn't one. So if you could explain how it matters what one's particular business someone engages in, in the privacy of their own home, quietly and without affecting the enjoyment of anyone else in the development is, I would be most appreciative.
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Obviously, these two have never rebuilt an engine! Or perhaps you just enjoy being contentious! I have rebuilt engines and it is noisy and there are fumes involved. Not appropriate in a residential setting, especially with shared walls. I thought this was a forum to discuss HOA law and rules. I don't need a dissertation on the differences or lack thereof in these businesses.
EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446
Posted:
JoyceN1

Would you be willing to post the exact words from your CC&Rs re “no home based businesses?

While many Declarations and CC&Rs have words re home based businesses – they can vary.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoyceN1 on 08/15/2013 8:24 AM
Obviously, these two have never rebuilt an engine! Or perhaps you just enjoy being contentious! I have rebuilt engines and it is noisy and there are fumes involved. Not appropriate in a residential setting, especially with shared walls. I thought this was a forum to discuss HOA law and rules. I don't need a dissertation on the differences or lack thereof in these businesses.

Actually I have rebuilt engines, and I know what's involved quite well.

May I point out that you're the one making a subjective judgment call of what type of business is okay and what is not. If either is done without disturbing the peace or affecting any resident's enjoyment of their unit (i.e. Nobody knows the business exists until they're told) why would ANY business be permitted over any other?
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
As I stated before, I have no problem with any home based business, it is the Board practicing selective enforcement of the rule against home based businesses by allowing a Board member to continue her business and not allowing others the same privilege. Stop being contentious and offer something contructive. And if you don't know the difference in the nuisance level of rebuilding engines and bookkeeping then you should go to another site where people go to argue. We are here to help each other.
MoM1 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 56
Posted:
The procedure for handling the violation of the "no businesses" in your CCR's should be in your CCR's. It is very possible that while there are a whole bunch of: You can't do this or thats; often times there is no mechanism for enforcement.
GnomeX (Washington)
Posts: 253
Posted:
This is one of those situations I think HoAs can go overboard on.

For example. I know software engineers that work from home. Even accountants. No attorneys here but I know of one next county over that runs his practice out of his home. You would never know unless you know them personally. We have a guy that was running a roofing company from his home. He doesn't store supplies there. Just runs his office out of his home and of course the actual construction was done elsewhere. Things like that you would never even know they had a home based business unless they told you.

Another example is we have one lady who runs a day care from her home. I only know because she told me, she always kept the kids in the house.

I myself once had a side e-commerce business selling mostly on eBay and Amazon.

We did get a change to our Bylaws voted on to allow all this as long as there was no visibility. But for over 30 years this was all technically prohibited.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Joyce

Sorry you think my point was contentious or specious (i can't remember which you called it, I get called both a LOT). However, I tossed it out there as food for thought. Since you tossed back, I'll take that as you want to play the game.

So, let's get to my main point:
What the heck does it matter what I do in my own garage, if it bothers no one? I can rebuild motors all day long, write poetry, do accounting, shave small mammals, or film porn for websites. If there is NO exterior evidence of my business, why is bookkeeping allowable, but motor rebuilding not?

One argument tossed out there is that motor rebuilding "is different". You imply it is noisy, and involves fumes. I contend that I can do it with low VOC solvents, or no solvents, and rebuilding electrical motors requires no more noise than a standard vacuum, perhaps less. Or, did you mean car motors? We never specified what kind of motor, did we? I can rebuild car motors too, quietly and without any solvents other than soap and water. My neighbor currently rebuilds race car engines, and his hobby is quieter than the idiot across the street driving his Harley Davidson back and forth. I can hear the Harley neighbor coming two blocks away, i can barely hear the other one when he tests his finished product, it sounds just like a normal car.

However, if we are talking car motors, and oil/grease, wafting fumes that make people sick, and lots of noise from revving engines, then I agree with you... not because it's a business in the home, but because it ruins the enjoyment of others. However, that said, if you run an accounting business, and you use 50 gallons of methanol a week to run your mimeograph machine, and that thing clatters and clunks for 3 hours a day, making advertisement copies, and shakes my walls with the noise, and the smell of methanol makes me sick/drunk, is it your contention that because it's "bookkeeping" and not motor rebuilding, we can overlook that?

My point, once again, is we should describe accurately the behaviors and situations that we want to control, and not generalize things into broad categories, because broad categories always cause problems when you look into the details.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GnomeX on 08/15/2013 1:16 PM
This is one of those situations I think HoAs can go overboard on.

For example. I know software engineers that work from home. Even accountants. No attorneys here but I know of one next county over that runs his practice out of his home. You would never know unless you know them personally. We have a guy that was running a roofing company from his home. He doesn't store supplies there. Just runs his office out of his home and of course the actual construction was done elsewhere. Things like that you would never even know they had a home based business unless they told you.

Another example is we have one lady who runs a day care from her home. I only know because she told me, she always kept the kids in the house.

I myself once had a side e-commerce business selling mostly on eBay and Amazon.

We did get a change to our Bylaws voted on to allow all this as long as there was no visibility. But for over 30 years this was all technically prohibited.


I think "visibility" is a major issue.

Dropping kids off, picking kids up, kids playing in the yard, taking kids to the association pool, is very visible.

Sitting behind a computer screen and buying/selling on Ebay is no more visible then me posting here. Add package delivery/pickup trucks coming and going all day as a result of the Ebay business could be "visible".

Visibility, traffic, noise, smell, signage, lighting, licensing, etc. are all valid parts of a definition.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 08/15/2013 3:09 PM
Joyce

Sorry you think my point was contentious or specious (i can't remember which you called it, I get called both a LOT). However, I tossed it out there as food for thought. Since you tossed back, I'll take that as you want to play the game.

So, let's get to my main point:
What the heck does it matter what I do in my own garage, if it bothers no one? I can rebuild motors all day long, write poetry, do accounting, shave small mammals, or film porn for websites. If there is NO exterior evidence of my business, why is bookkeeping allowable, but motor rebuilding not?

One argument tossed out there is that motor rebuilding "is different". You imply it is noisy, and involves fumes. I contend that I can do it with low VOC solvents, or no solvents, and rebuilding electrical motors requires no more noise than a standard vacuum, perhaps less. Or, did you mean car motors? We never specified what kind of motor, did we? I can rebuild car motors too, quietly and without any solvents other than soap and water. My neighbor currently rebuilds race car engines, and his hobby is quieter than the idiot across the street driving his Harley Davidson back and forth. I can hear the Harley neighbor coming two blocks away, i can barely hear the other one when he tests his finished product, it sounds just like a normal car.

However, if we are talking car motors, and oil/grease, wafting fumes that make people sick, and lots of noise from revving engines, then I agree with you... not because it's a business in the home, but because it ruins the enjoyment of others. However, that said, if you run an accounting business, and you use 50 gallons of methanol a week to run your mimeograph machine, and that thing clatters and clunks for 3 hours a day, making advertisement copies, and shakes my walls with the noise, and the smell of methanol makes me sick/drunk, is it your contention that because it's "bookkeeping" and not motor rebuilding, we can overlook that?

My point, once again, is we should describe accurately the behaviors and situations that we want to control, and not generalize things into broad categories, because broad categories always cause problems when you look into the details.


To Brian's point, Joyce, you say "I have no problem with ANY home based business" (my emphasis), yet you arbitrarily say "as long as they aren't rebuilding engines", suggesting that your definition of "any" is arbitrary and limited. You're creating the conflict of opinions yourself.

To the point of the thread, if someone runs a business from their home, ANY business at all, that is not detectable externally and does not change anything about the neighborhood from noise to amount of traffic, then it's impossible to argue how one of those businesses is permitted over any other one.

Now, businesses that affect the association are a different matter. Someone running a daycare, running a hair salon in their basement, someone parking heavy equipment in their driveway, etc... are situations where the association as a whole is affected. Some could be just visual, others could increase traffic, others could be noise related. It's up to the board to establish an OFFICIAL interpretation of the restriction. Making an official interpretation is a board action that should be determined at a meeting of the BoD and logged into official meeting minutes. That should be done to ensure that decisions are not arbitrary.

i.e."Relative to the restriction regarding home based businesses, Article 4, Section 27, titled "Home based Businesses", the board interprets this restriction to prohibit business that look bad, smell bad, or sound bad, but not those that are transparent to the association. Examples of permitted businesses are: ____________ Examples of prohibited businesses are: ___________ The provided lists are intended to be for the purpose of examples only and are not intended to be exhaustive lists."

Voted on by the board, entered into the minutes, distributed to the entire association, done (running by the attorney might be a good idea if the decision is expected to be contentious). The board takes the executive action of interpreting the bylaw, and that action stands until it's overruled by a subsequent vote of the board (or by a vote of the owners in a method prescribed by the documents).
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
also to Brian's point, albeit a bit tangential, how do hobbies differ from businesses in terms of what's permitted?

One could have a noisy hobby vs a quiet business. The guy with the loud Harley could have weekly gatherings of his like-minded friends, while the guy making far less noise making custom cabinets in his garage could have a customer come every 2 months. The Harley guy could also have a hobby where he does business-like things but doesn't really make money at it, so we could also have the distinction of when does a hobby become a business? Not easy issues to address.
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
It appears that when one starts a new discussion on here that no one really ever reads the post they gloss over it and then want to get into an argument over a simple question.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Didn't read my response 2 posts up, eh?
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Unfortunately Dave3 I have read each and every one of these posts, a complete waste of my time. This site should be renamed to HOAargue.com. Everyone seems to have an opinion when what I am looking for is an answer to a board which selectively enforces the CC&Rs. They allow a board member to have a home based business and everyone else has to comply with the CC&Rs. Please everyone I don't expect any help and please don't reply!
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Simply ask the board for the official interpretation of which home-based businesses are permitted and under which conditions. If ANY exceptions are made to a rule stating "NO Home Based Businesses" they better have a damn good, OFFICIALLY ADOPTED justification for doing so. The opinion of the board president doesn't mean squat. They're just another voice on the board. If the rules are not being applied equally (as you say they're not) ask if the association's insurance policy covers discrimination lawsuits. They should get the point.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoyceN1 on 08/13/2013 11:57 AM
Our CC&Rs state that no one can run a home based business and I can't get the management company to tell me what the procedure for handling residents who are running home based businesses. I am asking because when I was on the board our power hungry new president was taking everyone to task for every little infraction and she said to me that no one could have a home based business. I told her that one of our fellow board members has a home based business and she said "but she doesn't make money at it!" I said "oh good I'll have her do my books for free and send all my friends, great!" She then said "oh!" Exactly, her stupidity runs deep. Does anyone know what the procedure is in this, should the management company send a cease and desist letter as they are wont to do for every little violation. They practice selective enforcement and we are at the mercy of this merciless board. Thanks

Fair enough, Joyce... you have a point. Let's see if I can read your post and answer your question.

Sentence one. Declarative statement. No question asked.

Second sentence. Declarative statement. No question asked. Same with third, fourth, fifth and sixth sentences. and, the last sentence isn't a question either.

Seventh sentence: question: Does anyone know what the procedure is in this? (implied, by the context, does anyone know what the procedure is that my management company uses?).

I doubt that unless someone here is on the management company you use, or acquainted with them and your HOA rules of business practice and SOP's, the answer is no. We don't know.

Now, if I were to guess at what you might have wanted to ask, but didn't, you might be asking "should the management company be sending letters out?" (if directed by the board or SOP, yes they should), or you might be asking "what do other HOA's do about home based businesses?" (and many of us answered in our way, explaining the complexities of the issue), or you might be asking "is there a standard practice out there about this?" (and our answers are, no, there is not).

JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Now that wasn't so hard was it? Finally something substantial to work with. Thanks
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Now that wasn't so hard was it? Finally something substantial to work with. Thanks
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Now that wasn't so hard was it? Finally something substantial to work with. Thanks
ND (PA)
Posts: 792
Posted:
Joyce, I think someone asked for it, but I'm not sure if you have supplied it yet . . .

What is the exact language from your CC&Rs prohibiting home-based businesses?

That would help folks here determine if your CC&Rs do in fact prohibit ALL home-based businesses or perhaps only certain ones . . . and then folks here could either agree or disagree with you that there is or is not selective enforcement.

Regardless of all that . . . if you think there is a violation of your documents, then follow your document's violation-reporting procedure to appropriately document your complaint(s) and report them to the management company and/or Board.
EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446
Posted:
Re posting of the exact words, I did ask Joyce, if she would be willing to post. But I forgot to mention that it would also be helpful to know approximately when those words were written.

For example, from some Documents I am familiar with:

Written early 1980’s (more or less before the internet):
(a) Each unit shall be used for single family residential purposes only, and no trade or business of any kind may be carried on therein, provided, however, that rental of all or a portion of a unit for residential purposes shall not be a violation of this covenant.

Written with in last 4-5 years:
(a) Each Unit shall be used solely for single family residential occupancy purposes; and no trade or business of any kind (except home occupations permitted by municipal ordinance and which do not bring the general public to the Property) may be carried on therein. --------------------------

If for example Joyce's Documents were written in the 1980’s, IMO the Board should clarify by Rule or Resolution, that since it is 2013 the “no business” still applies, but that Section xxx will now be interpreted, “except that home occupations permitted by municipal ordinance and which do not bring the general public to the Property” will be allowed.

And then possibly continue with a list of typical businesses that will be allowed, and a list of the typical types of businesses that will not be allowed. And then clarify further by adding some words like RogerB and/or other posters have suggested.

That should put everyone on “the same page”. And then Board should so advise all residents, and also the Management Company.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Ellie

While I overall agree with you. I have an issue with trying to be specific versus being general. As an example. One chat on this forum concerned there not being a ban specifically on "motorcycle" trailers versus there was a ban on other "type" trailers.

Meaning when one tries to list/specify things like so and so type trailers, one will try and say their trailer is not a specific so and so trailer but is a thus and thus trailer. Like splitting hairs on a motorcycle trailer versus a snow mobile trailer. Not that I know the differences between the two trailers, but I am sure some could draw such a line and make a case for one or the other. To me they are both trailers and fall under that all trailers are banned.

I say wait for a complaint, evaluate it, then rule on it. It is a trailer....LOL

AnnH4 (Florida)
Posts: 53
Posted:
Perhaps the best way to determine what a "home based business" is might be to contact your city or county government. They likely have legal definitions of what is considered to be a home based business for licensing and zoning purposes. Your HOA attorney might also be able to assist with an interpretation of your documents.

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