Central Air Issue! Please need advice!

Started by MarianM3 • 27 replies • 2020 views

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MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Hello I need some advice please. I moved into my condominium in 2009 and filled out permission form for central air unit

that was approved. Now in 2013 i received a notice that they never approved this and asking me to give a copy of the acceptance

letter however I do not recall receiving this and now it is my word against there's. I wouldn't even have all the information that is required in filling out this form since it was some time ago and it was installed by a couple guys my brother in-law happened to know at the time but does not have contact with them anymore.Why after 5 years are they doing this and just because they lost their copy can they come at me with the attitude like I did something wrong? Confused.

Thanks! Marian

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarianM3 on 08/05/2013 1:45 AM

I moved into my condominium in 2009 and filled out permission form for central air unit that was approved. Now in 2013 i received a notice that they never approved this and asking me to give a copy of the acceptance letter however I do not recall receiving this and now it is my word against there's.

Since you say it was approved but you don't recall receiving a written approval, I expect that you received verbal approval. Who gave that approval to you?

Track them down and get a statement from them. You should also contact your neighbors and see if they have been given verbal approval.

Quote:

Posted By MarianM3 on 08/05/2013 1:45 AM

Why after 5 years are they doing this and just because they lost their copy can they come at me with the attitude like I did something wrong? Confused.

My Association had a similar issue, the architectural files were not properly maintained or organized. Once we organized them, we did the same thing, asked individuals for a copy of their approval. Those who had approval responded with either a copy or a letter saying that they were given verbal approval by xyz (actual name). Those who didn't have approval and knew it simply removed the item.

My suggestion is to simply reply that you did receive approval from xyz but that it was verbal at the time. Then see what they say. Just remember to keep your reply polite.

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Thank You for your help. I do believe it was verbal, however, what if the one who gave the verbal denies it? I should have made

sure I had something in writing. Big lesson learned.

RayC4 (Virginia)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarianM3 on 08/05/2013 1:45 AM
Why after 5 years are they doing this and just because they lost their copy can they come at me with the attitude like I did something wrong? Confused.

Marian, not sure I understand this completely. What is their problem with the A/C? (Specific covenants violation, etc?) Do your condo neighbors and fellow HOA members have similar A/C units installed? If they do, it seems you are owed an explanation as to why you are being "selected" for this treatment. Such selective enforcement is normally improper and illegal.

Beyond that, my HOA ARC Guidelines specify a timeframe in which permits must be answered (yea or nay) by the HOA. And if no answer is given within the timeframe (e.g. 90 days), the permit is deemed approved. You might check your own CR&R's to see if this kind of clause might be present. Five years is a LONG time to decide to object, and I suspect legal arguments would be on your side (i.e. laches defense, etc). I would attempt to discuss with whoever and ask them for an explanation of the delay. As Tim mentioned, be polite. But failing that, you might consult an attorney and see if a firm letter stops the show.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

If you can't find the person or there is a differing of opinions, I would offer the following (expecting that there are others who have similar units):

I was of the impression that I had permission after talking with xyz. Obviously, this impression may have been in error.

I am aware that design changes need prior approval, a written request was submitted (say this only if there was) and I am now aware that I should have waited for written approval. However, since the unit has been installed since mm/dd/yyyy, and since there are others who have similar units (name them), I think that we can come to a mutual agreement to resolve this issue.

Of course, if you didn't submit a written request and if the person denies that you and he discussed the issue, then it's down to your word against the current Board. This is why I suggested that you talk with your neighbors and see if others are having the same issue. If there is a pattern that can show the Association failed to properly maintain the records, then an argument can be made that the benefit of the doubt should go to the member (providing the item in question would have likely been approved anyway).

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

In speaking to my sister who refreshed my memory regarding this matter she told me that yes I had installed A/C unit without approval. I did not receive rules handbook when i moved in and wasn't aware of Association rules and such.There was a lady from the board who personally came to my home and we discussed the matter and she gave me the handbook and from that point on it was left alone since they realized I had not intentionally done this and in not having rules book they just let it slide. So now they are forgetting all this since it was in 2009 and checking their records do not see any approval for this so are coming at me as if I did something wrong.I am a little behind on payments but worked this out with them ,however ,it seems as if I am being harassed since being late on HOA payments. Last month I applied for the Dish and they denied me with no explanation and said try again in 30 days. I left it alone because I just assumed it was due to being behind in payments but now I really do feel they are looking for things to give me a hard time. I don't know what to do because it is my word against there's and most know they always win. Also the dish was a gift from grandparents since there hasnt been T.V. for my children they wanted to do this. The Board looks at it like if she cant afford her association payments why should we ok the Dish. This was all back over 4 years ago, are they allowed to do this?

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Thank You Tim I know I had read this and yes there are many with the same units. I had posted an update regarding this matter and the approval.I remembered that when moving in to unit I did not receive handbook. And being unaware of rules I did have the unit installed. One of the board members came to my home and explained things to me then handed the rules book to me and the decision was to just let it slide since they failed to provide me the rules handbook when i moved in in 2009.Now they have forgotten this and are coming at me as if i had just failed to get approval. I am going to send them a reminder and see what happens.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarianM3 on 08/05/2013 3:31 PM
Last month I applied for the Dish and they denied me with no explanation and said try again in 30 days.

Oh Dear!!

It sounds like your HOA is clueless.

Advance approval from an HOA is not required to install a dish antenna. You need to consult the FCC OTARD rules. All you need to do on this issue is to appeal to the FCC - best yet, it's free! Most issues brought before the FCC by a homeowner, the HOA loses. All you have to do is to go to the FCC website and look up past cases of this type.

This has nothing to do with your A/C issue. If you win on the Dish issue, it could either strengthen or lesson their resolve to pursue the A/C issue.

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Wow Thank You soo much Bruce! I will pursue this! So regarding A/C issue do

nothing? Is it WWW.FCC.Com?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 08/05/2013 4:19 PM

Posted By MarianM3 on 08/05/2013 3:31 PM
Last month I applied for the Dish and they denied me with no explanation and said try again in 30 days.

Bruce,

It depends on where the dish was to be mounted. The Association still has control over common area. Remember that Marian is in a Condominium.

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

yes the Dish would be right outside my living room window. Actually the previous owners had one exactly where I would have had mine. Still it was denied. I should have at least been given a reason. Almost every unit has one so the only thing I can think of is the Association fees being behind is the reason.

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

MarianM3,

You wrote “I am a little behind on payments but worked this out with them, however, it seems as if I am being harassed since being late on HOA payments. Last month I applied for the Dish and they denied me with no explanation and said try again in 30 days.”

You wrote that you live in a Condominium. My general understanding is that re Condominiums, the only place a Dish antenna would be allowed, per the FCC OTARD rule, without permission, would be on a Limited Common Area. And even there the Association might have some “say so” in its placement.

Since you wrote that you need to apply for permission, do you know what the Association requirements are, and/or where they would allow a Dish Antenna to be mounted?

Since you were told to apply again in 30 days – something else seems to be going on. It seems unlikely that Association requirements would be different in 30 days, unless the Association is revising the requirements.

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

MarianM3,

Also, just curious, did you request permission to install a Dish Antenna in writing? Was there a form that you had to fill out and submit?

The reply that you received – was that in writing?

And, not that it should make a difference, are you a member of a large Condo Association, or is your Association a small one?

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Yes I did request this in writing. and they sent back my request with notation on the bottom saying I have been denied and to try again in 30 days. As for my association. I live in whats called The London Townhouses. They are good size. Not huge but
good size community.

So to recap:

1)I filled out form and submitted

2)That same form was returned a few weeks later with notation on bottom saying "Denied try again in 30 days". No signatures or nothing.

I do own my townhouse/Condo if it makes a difference which I don't think it does.

Hope that answered your questions Ellie. Thanks for your help!

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Ellie,

You have some really good points. When i applied for permission for the Dish I had to draw them a picture of exactly where it would be. The people who owned this Townhouse/Condominium before me had it in the same place and they still denied me.
Why I do not know. They did not tell me what I needed to do to remedy this just denied me and said reapply in 30 days. This is why I feel it is a personal situation regarding being behind on association payments. They probably sat around the table and said how can she afford the Dish when she is behind on payments. So this made them deny me the install. This Dish was a gift for my daughters from Grandma and Grandpa.So we have no T.V. to watch because of this. What are your thoughts? I so appreciate them Ellie.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarianM3 on 08/05/2013 9:29 PM
Ellie,

You have some really good points. When i applied for permission for the Dish I had to draw them a picture of exactly where it would be. The people who owned this Townhouse/Condominium before me had it in the same place and they still denied me.
Why I do not know. They did not tell me what I needed to do to remedy this just denied me and said reapply in 30 days. This is why I feel it is a personal situation regarding being behind on association payments. They probably sat around the table and said how can she afford the Dish when she is behind on payments. So this made them deny me the install. This Dish was a gift for my daughters from Grandma and Grandpa.So we have no T.V. to watch because of this. What are your thoughts? I so appreciate them Ellie.

Here's what the FCC says on their website:

"The rule prohibits restrictions that impair a person's ability to install, maintain, or use an antenna covered by the rule. The rule applies to state or local laws or regulations, including zoning, land-use or building regulations, private covenants, homeowners' association rules, condominium or cooperative association restrictions, lease restrictions, or similar restrictions on property within the exclusive use or control of the antenna user where the user has an ownership or leasehold interest in the property. A restriction impairs if it: (1) unreasonably delays or prevents use of; (2) unreasonably increases the cost of; or (3) precludes a person from receiving or transmitting an acceptable quality signal from an antenna covered under the rule. The rule does not prohibit legitimate safety restrictions or restrictions designed to preserve designated or eligible historic or prehistoric properties, provided the restriction is no more burdensome than necessary to accomplish the safety or preservation purpose."

The FCC has held that any requirement to seek permission in advance constitutes as "unreasonable delay" and is prohibited. If the association has concerns about antenna placement then it must publish guidelines or restrictions in advance. The association cannot require you to apply for permission to determine if you satisfy any guidelines or restrictions.

"Notification Process. The Association’s Section IX. notification process is permissible only to the extent that it constitutes a simple notification by an owner to the Association that he has installed or is about to install an antenna. If the notification process is implemented so as to delay installation in any way, we will consider it to be a prior approval requirement and impermissible under the Rule." (MO&O, Philip Wojcikewicz, DA 03-2971, released September 29, 2003)

The website

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule

has links for Q&A regarding the rules, plus links to previous case rulings (interesting reading) and guidance on how to file a petition for FCC review.

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

Bruce,

As I understand, what you posted applies, but depending.

Marian posted that her unit is a Townhouse/Condominium. So to know which FCC requirements apply, we need to know what parts of the building are considered “Common” and which parts are “Limited Common”.

From the FCC web site – specifically referring to Condominiums:

Q: If I live in a condominium or an apartment building, does this rule apply to me?

A: The rule applies to antenna users who live in a multiple dwelling unit building, such as a condominium or apartment building, if the antenna user has an exclusive use area in which to install the antenna.

"Exclusive use" means an area of the property that only you, and persons you permit, may enter and use to the exclusion of other residents. For example, your condominium or apartment may include a balcony, terrace, deck or patio that only you can use, and the rule applies to these areas.

The rule does not apply to common areas, such as the roof, the hallways, the walkways or the exterior walls of a condominium or apartment building. Restrictions on antennas installed in these common areas are not covered by the Commission's rule.

For example, the rule would not apply to restrictions that prevent drilling through the exterior wall of a condominium or rental unit and thus restrictions may prohibit installation that requires such drilling.

Q: If I live in a condominium, cooperative, or other type of residence where certain areas have been designated as "common," do these rules apply to me?

A: The rules apply to residents of these types of buildings, but the rules do not permit you to install an antenna on a common area, such as a walkway, hallway, community garden, exterior wall or the roof.

However, you may install the antenna wholly within a balcony, deck, patio, or other area where you have exclusive use.

Drilling through an exterior wall, e.g. to run the cable from the patio into the unit, is generally not within the protection of the rule because the exterior wall is generally a common element. You may wish to check with your retailer or installer for advice on how to install the antenna without drilling a hole.

Alternatively, your landlord or association may grant permission for you to drill such a hole. The Commission's rules generally do not cover installations if you drill through a common element.

Q: I live in a townhome community. Am I covered by the FCC rule?

A: Yes. If you own the whole townhouse, including the walls and the roof and the land under the building, then the rule applies just as it does for a single family home, and you may be able to put the antenna on the roof, the exterior wall, the backyard or any other place that is part of what you own.

If the townhouse is a condominium, then the rule applies as it does for any other type of condominium, which means it applies only where you have an exclusive use area.

If it is a condominium townhouse, you probably cannot use the roof, the chimney, or the exterior walls unless the condominium association gives you permission. You may want to check your ownership documents to determine what areas are owned by you or are reserved for your exclusive use.

Q: I live in a condominium with a balcony, but I cannot receive a signal from the satellite because my balcony faces north. Can I use the roof?

A: No. The roof of a condominium is generally a common area, not an area reserved for an individual's exclusive use. If the roof is a common area, you may not use it unless the condominium association gives you permission. The condominium is not obligated to provide a place for you to install an antenna if you do not have an exclusive use area.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Ellie,

I am very familiar with the FCC rules and regulations, having had to deal with them for over 50 years. I have read the Q&A on the OTARD rules on the FCC website many, many times. I have also read many of the FCC rulings on several cases; some more than once (except the most recent ones).

You are missing the point. If you will read my posts very carefully you will see that my point has been that advance approval by an association is prohibited under the OTARD rules because the FCC has determined that advance approval constitutes an unnecessary delay. I have never said in those posts that Marian can place the dish on common elements, or that where she proposes to place the dish should be acceptable. All I have said is that the association has to publish their guidelines or restrictions (that has also been ruled by the FCC). They cannot ask Marian to submit an application so the association (the board or some ARC committee) can then decide if where she plans to install the dish or the manner in which she plans to install it is acceptable.

If Marian has the dish installed on a common element, or damages the exterior wall of a common element (such as by drilling) then the association can require her to remove the dish and repair the damage at her expense.

The fact that advance approval is prohibited doesn't depend on anything. It always applies. The person installing the dish assumes the responsibility of installing it compliance with the OTARD rules.

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Ellie and Bruce,

The prior owners already had holes drilled into the exterior brick walls leading into the interior so what exactly are they approving or disapproving? And also not to change the subject but regarding the A/C unit they have 90 days to approve or disapprove my unit which having given verbal agreement then this should also be dismissed. Correct? It has been over 4 years and are now bringing this up. Does the FCC help with this?

Thanks Guys!

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarianM3 on 08/06/2013 1:19 PM
Ellie and Bruce,

The prior owners already had holes drilled into the exterior brick walls leading into the interior so what exactly are they approving or disapproving? And also not to change the subject but regarding the A/C unit they have 90 days to approve or disapprove my unit which having given verbal agreement then this should also be dismissed. Correct? It has been over 4 years and are now bringing this up. Does the FCC help with this?

Thanks Guys!

Can't help you on the A/C. The FCC doesn't have anything to do with that. As you noted earlier, you should have gotten the approval in writing. That's a lesson I learned early in life, thanks to my military training. Always get everything in writing, always; and don't sign anything before reading it (and understanding it) and don't sign anything that has blanks that are not filled in.

Just out of curiosity. What kind of A/C unit is it? Is it a window unit or is it central air? If it is central, where is the condenser (the outside part) located? On a common element? Is it like a window unit but has been installed by mounting in an exterior wall?

Forgive me if you've already described this earlier.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

NO ~ the Federal Communication Comission has NOTHING to do with A/Cs

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

Bruce,

I am also quite familiar with the FCC rules and regulations. I did not miss your point that “advance approval by an association is prohibited under the OTARD rules because the FCC has determined that advance approval constitutes an unnecessary delay”.

It was the reason that I responded.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that “advance approval is prohibited” - but only in the case of a FCC permitted antenna - which for Condominiums is only for an installation in an “exclusive use” area.

From the FCC site:

“The rule applies to individuals who place antennas that meet size limitations on property that they own or rent and that is within their exclusive use or control, including condominium owners and cooperative owners, and tenants who have an area where they have exclusive use, such as a balcony or patio, in which to install the antenna. The rule applies to townhomes and manufactured homes, as well as to single family homes.”

and

“The rule does not apply to common areas that are owned by a landlord, a community association, or jointly by condominium or cooperative owners where the antenna user does not have an exclusive use area. Such common areas may include the roof or exterior wall of a multiple dwelling unit. Therefore, restrictions on antennas installed in or on such common areas are enforceable.”
---------------------

I read this to mean that the “rule" does not apply when there is not an exclusive use area. And I interpret "rule" to include the advance approval provision. Do you interpret differently?

----------------------
And this from “Declaratory Ruling, Corey & Juanita Walker, DA 11-1271, released July 27, 2011: “Although an association can decide to allow antenna installation in common areas, which are not covered by OTARD, it cannot then prohibit installation in an area that is covered by OTARD and where the antenna will receive an acceptable signal.
----------------------

Here again, I interpret, that since OTARD does not apply to installation in common areas, “your point” that advance approval by an association is prohibited under the OTARD rules, does not apply.

However I do agree. OTARD or not, that Marian's Association should have published rules and or guidelines re the installation of satellite dishes.

I did not ask Marian, whether or not there was anything in her “Rules Handbook”, as I assumed since she had to fill out a form and supply a diagram, that there was something in writing. Apparently she does not have an “exclusive use” area, and so that leaves only Common Area on which to install a Dish.

I admit that I have not stayed current re OTARD, as dish antenna placement is no longer much of a problem for my Condo Association since we have allowed installation on Common Area roof peaks.

My interpretations are often unchallenged, so I appreciate debate. Thank you. Ellie

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Ok thanks John!

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Thanks Tim For your input! I really appreciate it!

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EllieD on 08/07/2013 7:10 AM

I read this to mean that the “rule" does not apply when there is not an exclusive use area. And I interpret "rule" to include the advance approval provision. Do you interpret differently?

My interpretations are often unchallenged, so I appreciate debate. Thank you.

You raise an interesting point. Now that I understand your reasoning, you have a valid interpretation.

I do wonder, though, if the "advance approval" situation is a "chicken-and-egg" scenario. Can advance approval be required to determine if the intended installation is within an exclusive use area or in a common area? It appears to me that from what Marian has posted that the association is requiring advance approval regardless of where the installation is. Suppose an owner has a balcony where the antenna can be installed and the balcony is an exclusive use area. Then, clearly, by your interpretation, advance approval would be prohibited. Yet, the association seems to want advance approval regardless.

I, too, welcome healthy debate on the issues. It is one way a person can increase their own knowledge. I also appreciate the fact that you make the effort to do the research which, to me, carries far more weight than mere opinion. I generally try do do the same.

I might say this with regard to Marian's situation. Boards and committees generally evolve over time and their membership can be completely changed in a few years. What some board members may have been willing to overlook years ago, present board members may be more inclined to "go by the book." If there is no written approval on file to bind the association to an approval by a previous board, then the present board may very well question or deny an installation.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Bruce

I could see issues where if the HOA does not require installation/location control then dishes could pop up anywhere at any time.

Is one allowed to install a dish? Yes one is.

Can one install it anywhere they desire to install it? No they cannot.

Must an owner seek HOA approval of the installation site? Yes they must.

Like other things (solar panels, clothes lines, etc.) the HOA cannot ban them, but they can control their location.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 08/08/2013 6:26 AM
Bruce

I could see issues where if the HOA does not require installation/location control then dishes could pop up anywhere at any time.

Is one allowed to install a dish? Yes one is.

Can one install it anywhere they desire to install it? No they cannot.

Must an owner seek HOA approval of the installation site? Yes they must.

Like other things (solar panels, clothes lines, etc.) the HOA cannot ban them, but they can control their location.

"Can one install it anywhere they desire to install it? No they cannot." - Not absolutely correct. The owner can install the antenna in an area not desired by the HOA (as long as it is exclusive use area) if it is necessary for proper reception, or if the installation is less expensive. The FCC further holds that the burden of proof that proper reception can be obtained in the HOA's desired location is on the HOA. I recall one case where an owner had installed several dishes on masts in his back yard (an exclusive use area). The HOA demanded that the owner take them down. The owner petitioned the FCC for a ruling and the HOA lost.

"Must an owner seek HOA approval of the installation site? Yes they must." No. The HOA must publish which sites are acceptable and which are not. If memory serves me correctly, that was also stated in a previous FCC declaratory ruling. The FCC prohibits advance approval if the intended site in an exclusive use area. That point is made very clear in 47cfr1.4000. The HOA can require advance approval if the intended installation is in an area other than an exclusive use area, but advance approval must be limited to such locations.

MarianM3 (Michigan)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 08/05/2013 2:50 PM
If you can't find the person or there is a differing of opinions, I would offer the following (expecting that there are others who have similar units):

I was of the impression that I had permission after talking with xyz. Obviously, this impression may have been in error.

I am aware that design changes need prior approval, a written request was submitted (say this only if there was) and I am now aware that I should have waited for written approval. However, since the unit has been installed since mm/dd/yyyy, and since there are others who have similar units (name them), I think that we can come to a mutual agreement to resolve this issue.

Of course, if you didn't submit a written request and if the person denies that you and he discussed the issue, then it's down to your word against the current Board. This is why I suggested that you talk with your neighbors and see if others are having the same issue. If there is a pattern that can show the Association failed to properly maintain the records, then an argument can be made that the benefit of the doubt should go to the member (providing the item in question would have likely been approved anyway).

Ray,

Please if you could tell me more of what steps to take regarding A/C unit issue I would appreciate it. Here is the story upon my sister refreshing my mind. I moved in and did not receive the rules handbook from HOA that every new buyer should receive. So I installed A/C unit then started to receive violation notices regarding this. I had one of the board members come by and personally spoke to her regarding this matter and she then handed me the rules book explaing what I have to do from now on. I said ok and apologized for this and never heard a word again since i started receiving notices in the mail over 4 years later inquiring about the A/C stating it wasn't approved. Also now one of the members is even saying it is not placed properly where it is and this is false. I went out today and looked at others units and they are identically placed as mine. I even took pictures. Some where even not placed right seeing they were tilted and such.It seems that these A/C units are placed in what is know as the Limited Common Area.There is nothing wrong with where my A/C unit is. Now it is just a bunch of Angry Board Members ready to make me remove it. I know this is the goal.If something that makes sense to them is brought up they find another reason to add to the complaint. I dont know what to do at this pont or what my rights are. Is there a website maybe you could point me to that shows my rights in this situation? Or what about Laches is this a case for this? I do believe I am being discriminated against and harrassed. Thank You!

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