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SunshineS (Florida)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Hello All,
I was wondering if people could please weigh in on this situation:
In the last year we have moved into a house in Orlando Fl and we pay HOA dues. The house is on a corner lot on one of the 4 access routes. I recently met the HOA president who informed me that an additional sign was to be erected in my front garden. We already have the signage of the HOA name imbedded in the boundary wall. He was proposing a 4 foot high sign that would be lit at night and it and have a kind of plexiglass cabinet front with changeable lettering to give HOA contact info and community event details etc... He was proposing that it be placed right at the front of our garden where it joins the sidewalk in front of the small area of shrubs maintained by the HOA. As the house is quite pretty, framed by the trees and existing HOA wall and signage I thought to put a large additional sign straight smack bang in front of the lawn (and 5-10 yards from existing name signage) would certainly take from the curb appeal and look hodge-podge with the other signage. He mentioned that it WAS going in but we could discuss exactly where. He implied that I had no say in it because that part of the land is not on my property. I have since looked at my title and the place he wants to place the sign IS on my property, as is the HOA maintained shrubbery. I would like to know were I stand here because I would like to put my foot down
Any advice, expertise and opinion is welcomed...
Cheers,

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Even though its your land, its obvious the HOA has a easement. The easement may be for 5 feet of your land which the HOA can do whatever it wants. If this is the case, they can do whatever they want. But you really need to read the easement and how its written. You may find this on a survey, deed from the developer, your deed, etc. You will need to do some research.
SunshineS (Florida)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Thanks for the speedy reply. I am new to a HOA situation and so am completely naive about easements. So thanks for clueing me in I guess the gist of what you're saying is that the HOA has a right of access, duty to maintain, permission to erect etc on the part of my land abutting the boundary. I did a quick search and there is nothing in the title/deed and nothing on the HOA website that gives details of the easement rules and and regs. So, I am wondering if the HOA's access/usage of the easement is limitless? Can I have any say? What if I feel that new signage cheapens the entrance and lowers curb appeal and therefore resale value? I guess I am asking if there are some general guidelines that easements tend to follow? I should also mention that in addition to the HOA name signage on the wall, I already have a 2x3 foot "No soliciting" smack in front of my house and so I find a 3rd sign is really too much across my frontage... Surely there is a clause about reasonableness

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
I guess I am asking if there are some general guidelines that easements tend to follow? I should also mention that in addition to the HOA name signage on the wall, I already have a 2x3 foot "No soliciting" smack in front of my house and so I find a 3rd sign is really too much across my frontage... Surely there is a clause about reasonableness


There is no set of easement rules that everyone follows. Every easement is custom. You won't know what the guidelines are, if any, until you find the easement description. Keep looking.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
politely, but FIRMLY, request a copy of the document the HOA feels gives the right of easement onto your property

if it is not forthcoming, have YOUR attorney request same in writing (cost about $150 for letter)

either:

a) they HAVE easement ~ you are sol

or

b) they do not, or have limitations ~ remove any tresspass items and call local police

FIRST: take the polite route ~ trust, but verify !
PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
No one here can tell you at this time if it can or cannot be done.

Typically in Fla. the BOD has 'control' of the common areas.

Yet, you can be required by your docs. to maintain a small portion OF the common area. Such as a swale in front of the lot for instance.

Lastly there are the easements. A CERTAIN or SPECIFIC right to use the real property of another without possessing it.

The best way for you to know what land you own, your real property, and have control of vs. the land you own and SHARE control of is to OBTAIN THE SURVEY OF YOUR LOT/parcel, etc.

Here all boundaries of your real property will be illustrated. Any easements and their SPECIFIC PURPOSE will be indicated WITHIN your property boundaries.

Generally speaking leaving any other property that of another property owner, the association (common area), limited common area, city, count, state, etc.

It is common to be provided a survey of your lot during the transfer of ownership process. You may have it already.

If the sign is not within your boundaries you have no real say in the matter. In some cases I'm sure some type of defense could be mounted on aesthetics or exterior feng shui but it would likely be legal.

If the sign is in anyway encroaching your boundaries and not within a specified easement you are entitled to have it removed with "a side of" trespassing.

Get more info. but...DON'T ASK THE BOD FOR INFORMATION YOU CAN GET YOURSELF.

It is likely obtainable from yoor City Hall, building dept., etc.

Don't take an offensive stance until all the facts are discussed.
MoM1 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 56
Posted:
Go to your town hall and get copies of the signage rules and regulations. Often times there are limits on the number and size of signs placed on one lot. Town law supersedes association rules
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I'd check with Orange County records too. I have seen some easements filed there for my Orlando neighborhood. A search on their website might yield some results.

I would also be careful. Based on what you write of your interactions and that the president said it "WAS" going on your property you might be dealing with one of those know-it-all types that will disregard reason or fact and can make your life more stressful. I'd take the advice above. Also document EVERYTHING.
SunshineS (Florida)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Dear SteveM9, KevinK7, MoM1, PeterD3, JohnB26,
Thank you for your insight. I will try to find more specific information re: easement in our HOA. I took a drive this evening around surrounding neighborhoods and none of them have the tacky signage that is being proposed by the HOA. I really do feel that it is unnecessary and if they would just keep the website current and send out a monthly email newsletter it would circumnavigate the need for such a sign…
Thank you for the feedback
S
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Sunshine in addition to the other advice you've received, I would contact the HOA MC or secretary and request a copy of the minutes where the sign was approved. All CC&R's are different but ours puts a cap of $2,000.00 on what the Board can spend on a capital improvement without homeowner approval, perhaps your CC&R's has something similar.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 08/03/2013 12:47 PM
politely, but FIRMLY, request a copy of the document the HOA feels gives the right of easement onto your property

if it is not forthcoming, have YOUR attorney request same in writing (cost about $150 for letter)

either:

a) they HAVE easement ~ you are sol

or

b) they do not, or have limitations ~ remove any tresspass items and call local police

FIRST: take the polite route ~ trust, but verify !

Best advice thus far!
Show the documents you have that say it's your property. Ask for them to prove they have legal right to do anything on it.
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
Just because the sign might be allowed due to easement rights or even if its totally on association property does not mean its proper to put it there. If this is a sign where everyone will be stopping to read the information contained on the sign (meeting postings etc) it might become an issue of interference with the quiet enjoyment of the homeowner's property. Therefore, there may be a more reasonable spot to place such a sigh (not near someone's house).
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
I think Allison has hit on an excellent point regarding the "quiet enjoyment" of one's private property. If the HOA is working on its common area, which happens to be near a private lot, then the question may be moot. John's advice to be firm but friendly is equally valuable.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
If there is indeed an easement I would also wonder the wording. Does it grant the HOA unlimited power to do whatever they want? I have seen easements that are quite specific - only landscaping, sprinkler lines, wall built.

Also, would county codes have a place in this process? Would the HOA need to pull a permit for a sign? And how would they pull a permit when it is located on another property?
SunshineS (Florida)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Thanks for additional feedback.

The HOA president said he'd get back to me this week with images of the said sign and decision about its placement. After noting my duress about the sign he mentioned that he would consider putting across the street in my new neighbor's yard. Lucky them And of course we still all get to look at it!

I have dug out all the information I have from the title documents from our closing. A land survey was completed prior to closing and copies of this diagram came with our closing package. The scale drawing has no details or markings to deliniate the part of the land considered to be an easement. I also went to the Orange County website and after some searching I finally came across this document:
http://www.municode.com/Library#/FL/Orange_County/Code_of_Ordinances
It is a long document. It is a long, long document full of legalese. But from what I can glean, aside from the "use of easement" question, is that there seems to be strict guidelines re the size, number and placement of signs. Furthermore, it seems to state only ONE sign per property.

The current HOA website has not been updated for months and there is certainly no record of the decision making process about these proposed signs. In my talk with the president, after he lamented about low HOA participation, I mentioned an updated website with monthly minutes and a monthly news email could be the answer to all his woes. It would be nice if residents who can't/don't participate could be informed what's going on in those meetings.

As per advice given here, I will gently but firmly request that the HOA provide me with access to the document that he believes gives the HOA the right to erect further signage across my frontage. And we will see what happens

Thanks all.
ErikaB2 (Florida)
Posts: 36
Posted:
Hi Sunshine,

We had the same situation in our HOA. No homeowner participation and we couldn't get everyone's emails for the website. We added the same signage to our community as well. One of the signs were placed on the side of someone's property and I hope the president didn't lie about getting permission from the owner and not demanding it would go there any way.

Now, to answer your questions.

Call 311 and ask to be forwarded to this man who can send you a copy of the survey. He can just email it to you. It doesn't seem like you have a survey if it doesn't tell you what the easements are.

If you live in a zero-boundary community, then you may be out of luck because all properties are basically shared.

Check your HOA governing documents and see what they say about easements. If they don't say anything and the survey shows that you own the property lines and only have "normal" easements, these easements are for the government use of utilities only, not HOA use.

No where have I ever heard that HOAs are given rights to use your property. Easements are for utilities and government use if needed for access to utilities or maintenance.

But do handle with caution, care and tactfulness and using the previous advice others have given. It sounds like your president is being reasonable in offering to change the location because you are unhappy. But if he is not, you can always go to a meeting and express your concern and may find more reasonable board members there.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ErikaB2 on 08/05/2013 4:13 PM

No where have I ever heard that HOAs are given rights to use your property. Easements are for utilities and government use if needed for access to utilities or maintenance.

My neighborhood before built a wall but the wall was to be built on the homeowner's property. They had each owner sign a document that they filed with the county granting the HOA an easement to build the wall and access to the wall if needed to fix or maintain.
ErikaB2 (Florida)
Posts: 36
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KevinK7 on 08/05/2013 5:48 PM
Posted By ErikaB2 on 08/05/2013 4:13 PM

No where have I ever heard that HOAs are given rights to use your property. Easements are for utilities and government use if needed for access to utilities or maintenance.


My neighborhood before built a wall but the wall was to be built on the homeowner's property. They had each owner sign a document that they filed with the county granting the HOA an easement to build the wall and access to the wall if needed to fix or maintain.

Kevin

In your case they asked permission, I don't think an HOA should be allowed to force an owner to put something on their property without permission; that is just wrong.

Thank you for showing your example of how it can be done right.

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