External audit

Started by AminB • 128 replies • 15573 views

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AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

I posted here before regarding uncollected maintenance fees and that the Board and unbelievably the management company refuse to turn over the information.

I was thinking of submitting an official request for external audit paid by me , to the Board. As a corporation would they have to release the documents my accountant is asking me to provide for him, so he can do the audit?

Would really appreciate your time for giving me your input.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

What are you going to do with this information? Collect the back dues yourself? There is not much you can do in collecting back dues except for liens or foreclosures. Which take alot of time and expense to pursue. Lawsuits are not a good optiom at all to collect.

We put in a policy of 6 months behind we would lien unless you made payment arrangements. After a year we would evaluate the situation to decide on foreclosure. Which a HOA should never foreclose on a house in bank foreclosure. Foreclosure is just a stop the bleeding measure anyways.

So as someone very adept in pursuing past duex in her HOA this information has no use for you as an individual owner than knowing pursuit of the collection is happening. Does the house have a lien on it by the HOA? Yes. Enough said.

Former HOA President

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

So Melissa, where is the harm in any member of an HOA having a close look at the books for their personal understanding of the finances?

Do an audit, become informed. Sounds good. Perhaps he has some suggestions about how to alter policy regarding the collection of past due amounts. You don't know, so why criticize the interest in understanding the HOA's financial state? Surely the financial health of the HOA is not information solely reserved for the board.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Nothing wrong at all for an audit and a look at the books. That is NOT what this OP wants. They want to focus on one area of collections. Which is a legal area and something only the board can do.

An audit only tells you where the problems are or could be. It even suggest improvements. The fact still remains the board only power in collections are liens and foreclosures.

Former HOA President

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I read your original post, where you said you were concerned about fraud being committed during Hurricane Ike insurance fund distribution – what does that have to do with uncollected maintenance funds?

As others have said, homeowners do have right to know the number of homeowners who haven’t paid maintenance fees, total amount owed and what’s being done about it (payment plans, liens, lawsuits, garnishments, etc.) If the management company won’t provide this information, have you gone to the Board itself and express your concerns?

The management company works at the Board’s direction, so if they haven’t given you what you asked for, the Board needs to find out why. And if the Board refuses to discuss the matter, all the homeowners need to be aware of that, attend the next meeting and DEMAND answers.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

And the board refuses to share information on delinquencies and how they're addressing them. Perhaps the board is improperly using the tools available to them. What better way to gain understanding than an independent audit?

AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449

Posted:

Didn't this poster say she was given the financials but that particular information was not included? My financials do not have a list of the year's owed dues either, but you can figure it out if you look at all the monthly financials for the year plus the last month of the previous year. I think this poster wants the association to do this work for her and provide this particular information in the format that she wants.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/26/2013 11:36 AM
Nothing wrong at all for an audit and a look at the books. That is NOT what this OP wants. They want to focus on one area of collections. Which is a legal area and something only the board can do.

Not necessarily, often the CC&R's or state law (check local listings) allow one homeowner to enforce Covenant violations through the court and not paying your assessment is certainly a Covenant violation.

The problem is figuring out who to enforce against, our CC&R's allow me to inspect my account but it does not give me the authority to inspect my neighbor's account. Then there are some states where the enforcement action between the Board and the homeowner is privileged information. In those cases you would need to wait until the Board filed a lien for nonpayment and the information became public. But if the Board filed a lien then you wouldn't have to but if the Board doesn't file a lien how do you find out who owes????

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

As I said , I posted here before about the issue of fraud bu my HOA. I think they have committed fraud during Hurrican Ike distribution. I have a forensic accountant ready to go over the books. He needed the "uncollected maintenance fees" during the years 2009 and 2010. The HOA is hiding behind attorneys and not releasing them. My question is : If I submit my request to the Board telling them I am conducting an external audit, are there any corporation laws that would compel them to release that number at the request of their shareholders? Keep in mind I am not asking for any names, just the total number for those years. Is there any reason for an HOA to not help in external audit other than they have something that they don't want to be found?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

No this is where you are wrong. I want to see if they did something illegal, like from 9 homeowners who received Ike money 6 of them were Board members and very close friends of the Board members and none of them had any documentation other than a check and a deposit slip with a handwritten amount 5 times the amount of the check.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Thank you for your input. I had my attorney send a letter to the Board president and simply asked him to release the numbers along with couple of other requests my accountant had. He sent that to the Board attorney and he answered (at our expense), and without any explanation, that this is privileged information.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

In our HOA, this is private club. They control the vote by getting proxies from homeowners who live elsewhere, even calling them on the phone and ask to send them back to them blank and then fill their own names in and elect themselves.
The result is when they distribute money like in Ike, they distribute it themselves and when you want to conduct an audit they refuse to turn in the documents.HOAs can be a breeding ground for corruption as there is no state agencies to regulate them, at least in Texas.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Well first you need to get your info right before posting here and defending HOAs. Besides the uncollected maintenance fees, my accountant has asked for a copy of all the checks received during Ike .

Also:
Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

Copies of all checks received for Ike

They have refused to turn in all these documents. Are you now saying that I only wanted to get them do my work? I think like some others like you, you just don't want HOAs get a black eye and you are just answering posts defending them no matter what. A non-profit corporation should do whatever they can to alleviate the concerns of a homeowner who wants to make sure that all the distributions were on the up and up. Wouldn't you agree?
By the way I am a he and not a she just to correct your response.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

OK, let's go back to the beginning.
What do your documents say about the ability of owners to review the finances? Ours are perfectly clear that they may be reviewed.

Your attorney should be citing the documents, not just asking.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Thank you so much for your input. Besides that I had asked the followings:

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

Copy of Tax Returns and 1099 filings for 2009 and 2010

None of these have been released.

At this point there is a strong reason to believe what others have said: that HOAs are breeding ground for arrogance and corruption.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Well, they have said I can come and review them, but I am afraid this is what they would want me to see. The management company is the one that has all the documents and she was the first one to refuse my request. Going there alone with all the hostile eyes following me and them knowing that I could probably get them in trouble with the law may not be the best option.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

AminB,
Colorado previously passed a statute which now allows HOA members access to all of the records you listed. Starting 1/1/13 no justification is required. We willingly provide this info without involving attornies. Check out your state statutes. Also, if incorporated your state's nonprofit act may require allowing access.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Amin

I doubt the association/management is going to nor has to present you with copies of all the documents you want on a silver platter and at no charge. An association could go broke filling all the requests especially if a witch hunt is going on.

When you review the documents you are allowed to make copies. They may say we do not have a copy machine or say we charge 50 cents per copy. Fine, bring a scanner and scan what you want. This is legal.

Also I expect you could bring an assistant (regardless of who it is) to assist you.

Inform them of the assistant and your desire to scan the documents in.

AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 07/27/2013 7:19 AM
Well first you need to get your info right before posting here and defending HOAs. Besides the uncollected maintenance fees, my accountant has asked for a copy of all the checks received during Ike .

Also:
Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

Copies of all checks received for Ike

They have refused to turn in all these documents. Are you now saying that I only wanted to get them do my work? I think like some others like you, you just don't want HOAs get a black eye and you are just answering posts defending them no matter what. A non-profit corporation should do whatever they can to alleviate the concerns of a homeowner who wants to make sure that all the distributions were on the up and up. Wouldn't you agree?
By the way I am a he and not a she just to correct your response.

It sounds like you are in a legal action and using a subpoena to get documents like copies of checks, rather than a homeowner in an HOA asking for financials. I am completely pro when it comes to being transparent but what you are asking for is someone to do forensic accounting work for you in terms of interpreting the financial statements and finding wrongdoing. Most monthly financials include budget versus actual, you need to open up a spreadsheet and figure it out yourself. The financials should list any checks received for Ike as income. All insurance checks made out to the Association from the Association insurance company should be found on the financials. Checks made out directly to homeowners have been investigated by the insurance company and found to be valid already. If you think there has been insurance fraud on the part of your Board handing out checks to people who did not have a valid claim, then perhaps you need to contact the state agency in your state that handles insurance fraud. In your initial message, you asked about obtaining information regarding uncollected dues but somehow its turned into a fishing expedition to find out about insurance payments and budget comparisons from years ago.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 07/26/2013 9:19 AM

I was thinking of submitting an official request for external audit paid by me , to the Board. As a corporation would they have to release the documents my accountant is asking me to provide for him, so he can do the audit?

Amin,

Ignoring any reason why you want the information or what you hope to accomplish, I will simply address the questions you asked.

In Texas, per Sec. 209.005 of the TEXAS RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY OWNERS PROTECTION ACT (if applicable) and reenforced by Sec.A22.351 of the TX nonprofit corporation law, an Association is to make records "reasonably available for examination by an owner, or a person designated in a writing signed by the owner as the owner ’s agent,attorney, or certified public accountant, in accordance with this section."

So the answer to your question is yes and no.

Yes, financial records must be provided.
No, all records don't have to be provided which may limit an audit.

Audits cost between $5-10 thousand.
You may want to consider a financial review instead.
Better yet, ask to see the last audit or financial review performed (your accountant would need that anyway).

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

The audits they perform is not external so it wouldn't do any good to obtain those. I cannot make my goal any clearer than that. Because the way checks were written for Ike and that most were Board members or their friends whose condos were not even in the path of Ike and because they refuse to release this basic information (uncollected maintenance fees for that period), because they keep the candidates names off proxies and because they call people and ask to send proxies blank and back to them and because they do not allow monitoring of the election, and because they elect themselves..., I strongly suspect fraud. Nothing wrong with confirming or finding the suspicion is unfounded, is it?
I have a forensic accountant lined up and not afraid of the cost. I cannot imagine a non-profit corporation won't make all records available for inspection by a suspecting homeowner just to alleviate their concerns. I am asking for financial records. Can you please tell me one good reason that not all financila records should not be available?
BTW, they can redact the names. All I need is numbers.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Fishing expedition? Now I know you are on the side of the HOAs.
It all ties in together. May be you should read all my posts about this before offering advice.
I have asked for uncollected main. fees because my accountant needed that along with some other documents. All this is needed because I have a strong suspicion of the way Hurricane Ike money was distributed. All that stems from the fact that they do not allow monitoring the election, they take candidates names off proxies, they call homeowners asking them to send the proxies blank to them and then they fill them out with their own names and get elected year after year.Most of all some condos are in a group of other condos with common roof and the other ones didn't file for insurance.
"Checks made out directly to homeowners have been investigated by the insurance company and found to be valid already". How do you know that?
Instead of sending me to insurance agencies or even District attorney where they would need to prove fraud before moving in, if you were completely pro transparent, you would have directed me on the legal aspects as to how best I can obtain these documents without filing a lawsuit and what non-profit corporate charter would allow me. You instead try to dissuade me and send me to no man's land where hopefully my quest for transparency will simply go away.
In my opinion,you just try to protect HOAs so they don't get another black eye. Lets not forget stories of embezzlement by HOAs and property managers are plentiful, one happened in Fort Worth a while ago.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Witch hunt? I hope you do know that our association has a management company and they charge per copy and have for years. It goes in their pocket and not the association.
I hope you and people who are on this site , realize that HOAs by their nature are breeding ground for dictatorial behavior which stems from the fact that they are small governments with huge powers with no overseeing agencies. They like to keep contracts to themselves and may be get some under the table for granting these contracts. Not all are the same, but I strongly suspect mine is. They take candidates names off proxies and send proxies blank and then get on the phone and ask the unsuspecting homeowner to send them back : Blank. Then they fill their own names and get elected and reelected. Then comes something like Hurricane Ike and when some condos who belong mostly to the Board members and not even in the path of hurricane file for insurance , and a homeowner who wants to inspect the books, is not allowed to do so. HOAs by their nature are bad and need to to be regulated, because the only way for me to get these is through a process of discovery and filing a lawsuit. I have spent hundreds and even thousands of dollars trying to investigate this and you are talking about 50 cent per copy and a witch hunt. May be you have an up and up association but mostly associations are made of regular people who power gets in their head and the lure of easy money to apply to their every day needs, is always around the corner to seduce them with policing left to themselves.
I was hoping this website was different and would have been more towards grievances against HOAs which there are plenty. I can see the same type of people who I see on other websites and are doing business with HOAs come here and try to defend them or scare me or send me to another direction away from investigating HOAs.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am a bit confused by how you think the money was distributed and then distributed wrongly. Are you in a one building with separate condo's? Not sure how your building is set up. Having been through a tornado damage here in our area, FEMA usually distributes the money directly to the homeowners. However, I don't know if your HOA submitted a claim for it's common property or the building as a whole?

It seems that one could make a claim with FEMA for your own condo's damages. However, if it is one building and the HOA is responsible for the EXTERIOR, then the HOA would then file a claim for the exterior damages and those to the common areas. Otherwise the owner is claiming the INTERIOR separately. So I am confused on why you would say the money received from IKE was spent wrongly as it most likely went to fix the exterior damage of those effected. Did you not file your own claim?

There is a missing piece here somewhere. Did you not get any money from the claim? Did you not file a claim? What was the claim of the HOA or the other owners? That is where more details need to come out. It does not make sense otherwise to claim money misspent if we don't know what it would have been spent on?

Former HOA President

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Its not going to do any good for you to explain since we all know which side you are on,but I will explain.HOA received the money and in fact 3 days before our Annual meeting. They did not announce receiving it at the meeting.The check was over $150K. I found out by accident. Our condos are grouped into buildings of 16 units each. My rental in one section, along with 14 other did not file for damages. One unit who "incidentally" belonged to a Board member filed for $4,000 damages. When I asked to see the documentation, I was given a copy of the check, along with a deposit slip with a handwritten amount of 5 times the amount on the check. When I asked for explanation, I was given none and they hid behind their attorney. I was told by my attorney that the only way to find out ,would be to file a lawsuit and the process of discovery.
I don't hold my breath , but I hope you do see a strong case for suspicion of theft and collusion.
This can happen anywhere. When unchecked power is given to a group of ordinary people with the flow of money it would be an easy lure to cook the books, since nobody is watching and the only way to find out would be through an expensive lawsuit which would be bad for all homeowners. So they get off scot-free and they have people like you who can go to bat for them on every website that homeowners want to air their grievances. I hope all the missing pieces have been put together for you to see. For people who are unbiased and know what a bad idea HOAs are , I believe missing pieces have already been put together. I am here on this site to see if there are legal procedures, like any agencies that regulate non-profit corporations and if anything there would compel them to release the information. I am sure I wouldn't get any help from you as how I can find out, only that best I can live with the current situation.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 07/29/2013 7:48 AM

I am here on this site to see if there are legal procedures, like any agencies that regulate non-profit corporations and if anything there would compel them to release the information. I am sure I wouldn't get any help from you as how I can find out, only that best I can live with the current situation.

The truth of the matter is that there typically are no Federal or State agencies that oversee Assocaitions. Some States do have ombudsmans that might be able to assist. However, there assistance is often limited due to existing laws and the simple fact that they are not part of the court system).

Sure the State corporation commission may fine for not filing the annual report on time. The IRS will certainly go after the Association for failing to file taxes. The District Attorney will prosecute if criminal laws are broken (example embezzlement). However if the Association doesn't comply with the Bylaws or a civil law, it's up to the membership to hold the Board accountable. The easiest way would be to recall the board or not reelect them to the Board. The more expensive option is to go through the court system.

Contract law only works when both sides are willing to comply with the terms of the contract. If one side doesn't desire to comply, the only options available are:
1) renegotiate the contract (not likely to easily happen in Associations)
2) Live with the infraction (typically very difficult to do)
3) Seek remedy through the a third party (ombudsman, courts, etc.) to force compliance (can be a very expensive process)

Amin, I know from your posts that you have tried to work from within. Unfortunately, it appears that your Board is unwilling to comply with the terms of the contract or the applicable civil laws. The choice is yours on what you desire to do. From your posts, I know that you have already consulted an attorney. Therefore, you likely know your legal options.

I wish you luck in whatever decision you chose.

Tim

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I thought about this a bit... Could this be not seeing for forrest for the trees? Now lets say that you are 100% right that the board misused/misgotten those Ike funds. Did the check go to the HOA? or did it go to different members individually that filed?

If the check was written to the HOA, and those checks were cashed, then the HOA as a whole is responsible for paying back those funds plus penalties. Which there are penalties to be paid on fraudulent funds. So that would mean that ALL of you would be responsible for paying the money back not just the ones who got the money. If the money was put into the HOA's name/account.

If the checks were claimed by individuals, then what business is it of anybody's? FEMA will investigate and go after those individuals as individuals. NOT the HOA as a whole.

What are you trying to get as the result? Do you think the money will come back to the HOA? Do you think that there will be some kind of refund? If it's the individual who did it, then wouldn't that money be returned to the government? It seems the result of proving your case either puts you all on the hook for paying back or it's an individual person issue that's between them and the government. Anyway it is, the money isn't coming back. It would be going back to the source. So thanks for paying all that money out of your pocket so the money can be returned to the government.... It sure isn't going to be reimbursed to anyone but them.

Former HOA President

AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449

Posted:

No matter how you look at it, an insurance adjuster must have come to the site to assess the situation. I do not know of a scenario where an adjuster would not do an assessment. It makes no difference if the check went to the HOA or the homeowners directly (although I do not know why the association insurance company would pay for damage inside a condo that is not common property). Now if you are saying that some damages were not repaired because the money was ultimately given away, then you might have a legitimate complaint, but you have not mentioned anything like this.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Thank you for your reply. You are right.I have already made my decision and unfortunately it has to be the court.The reason I was here was to see if there is any place like Secretary of State that i could go to and they can compel them to open their no-profit books to the members.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Same old response. I have already told you that HOA received the money. It disbursed it to what turned out mostly Board members. Now that I am trying to look at the books they have blocked me from seeing them because they could go to prison for fraud. Nobody will investigate them except me, not DA, not FEMA or anybody else, only me. They all have a misplaced trust in HOAs and trust that they do the right thing. They are ordinary people that hen disaster happened they saw a golden opportunity to make some extra money. We see case after case of embezzlement by HOA members, property managers and its time that they be regulated, something that you and people like you are fighting against , so you can do business with HOAs. Right now the only thing I am fighting for is to look at those books to see if fraud has been committed. If it has the perpetrators should go to prison. Have I made that clear enough for you?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Of course I mentioned it. Thats how I found out that there could be fraud. My rental unit along with 14 other ones in a 16 unit section of the condos did not report a penny of damage, because no damage occurred. A board member reported $4000 damage and when I asked for documentation, I was given the copy of the check with a copy of the deposit slip with a handwritten amount for over 5 times the amount of the check. May be you should read all my posts regarding this subject before answering me. One thing is to your benefit that you do not want to accept, is that HOAs power is too much, it is left unchecked with no way to challenge or even question it . They can abuse their power by fining you, adding greedy attorneys' fees and then foreclose on you if you don't pay. It happens all over and most cases homeowners have no remedy except going to court. It is unbelievable with people's most of the time, biggest investment in their lives and some guy can tell them how to live, decorate based on their interpretation. If they don't then hell breaks loose.
If you see anything in my response to you, that you think doesn't happen or its impossible to happen or I am wrong, please let me know. My opinion still hasn't changed howver. You are on the side of HOAs and are here just to make sure they don't get another deserving black eye.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Uhm you ever kind of listen to yourself? Only YOU are the one investigating this? Would not the entities responsible who gave out the money not do this? It is their money. If I thought someone ripped off my money or missed used it I would go after them for it. Funny how FEMA, the DA, and other legal claimants to the money are not pursuing. However, you will be the hero that not only points all of this out but also paid out all their money to do so. You prove your point and then what? The money isn't going to going to you or the other homeowners. It's going to come OUT of your pockets and your neighbors. Will it feel good to put your neighbors in jail? Who does that?

The last time I checked, and I do this often, anyone who owes me money... I want to be able to LEGALLY collect. What is so wrong with wanting everyone to pay their fair share for the same benefit? What do you suggest one does when someone doesn't pay their fair share and gets your same benefits? Especially if you have to pay more? What legal routes do you think are available? Those legal routes are to lien/judgement or take it away (foreclosure). That is simply what a HOA does when it does a foreclosure or places a lien. Simply taking a LEGAL step to get their money owed to them.

Again nothing speaks more volumes that "Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors". This is NOT Pro HOA dribble. It is 100% FACT. You sue your HOA, you are suing everyone IN that HOA. You are a member. So brag all you want about getting this money "back". You aren't really getting any money back at all. Your actually putting your HOA more in debt by doing what your doing. That money is NOT going to go back into the HOA's pockets. It's going to go OUT of their pockets and yours. Seriously THINK!!! You are demanding money to be returned that doesn't belong to these board members. So it does NOT belong to the HOA either. Which you are a member of. So that money then goes away.

What I see here is someone who just does not see the reality for the trees. The money isn't defrauded in the first place most likely IF the very issuing entity does NOT view it as such. If the one that is truly owed the money back (FEMA) does not want to investigate, then there is NO legal case. Your suing your HOA for something that doesn't belong to it in the first place if it was fraud. So your making sure that you all do NOT keep this money? Makes absolutely no sense at all.

Former HOA President

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Because FEMA is unaware of potential fraud and is not investigating is hardly proof that no wrongdoing occurred that would be of interest if they had knowledge and evidence.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

The OP said they were NOT investigating. It was ONLY them ALONE. Considering this was FEMA money they would investigate if they thought it was fraud. However, after reporting it to them and they do nothing, then nothing is to be done.

Even IF FEMA did investigate and found fraud, the WHOLE of the HOA would be responsible to pay back PLUS fines. Which means this money would NOT be in the HOA's budget and ALL the members pay for the punishment fines. It would be considered NOT the HOA's money.

So in the end you are fighting to take away money that was never the owners/HOA to have in the first place. Talk about a Peric Victory...

Former HOA President

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

You just have your hand in the HOAS pockets. Thats why you only listen to yourself and any explanation to you goes in one ear and goes out the other. For the umpteenth time , I am not demanding any money to be returned. I just want to find the facts and for would-be embezzlers to go to prison. Their own estates could be sued for the return of the money , like some of the new cars I see they are buying.

I can itemize it, may be even biased and bought and paid for HOA affiliated person would have to accept. Of course HOA friends have no shame and will never admit their precious feeders ,the HOA,can be ever guilty of fraud.Here you go.

* FYI it is Department of Insurance that would investigate it and they won't until I get a proof.

* Ditto for DA office.

* I can't get a proof until I inspect the books.

* I can't inspect the books because my HOA won't let me, now that they know where I am going with it.

You see , you and your friends have got a good thing going, where without going after them , they can be immune from prosecution, they can form a private club, negotiate contracts, get money under the table, and stop people from inspecting the books, on the thought that if they are ever sued, they have people like you scaring people that you are suing yourself. So I guess if people are found guilty let them go free, huh?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

They are not investigating because they need proof. The only way to get proof for me to provide one. the way to get the proof is to go over their books. They won't let me go over their books, unless I sue for discovery?

According to you let the guilty go free. You just don't want to lose your source of money to the detriment of others,thats all.

I guess just leave things where they are and no changes. Right?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Thank you. They will not initiate an investigation , unless I can bring them a viable proof . The HOA knows what I am doing and has just closed their books for inspection and basically daring me to file an expensive lawsuit.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Amin

In a post dated 07/27 you said the association/management company invited you to come inspect the records. Why are you now saying you must file a legal action to do so?

I you replies it might be easier for all if you said who the reply was specific to.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

That is kind of a clue if they are telling YOU to get proof. That means they are not really interested. Believe me, if they thought there was something going on they are not going to wait for someone else to bring them proof. They are going to directly go in and ask for the records themselves. Why need a middleman? It is a way for them to stay out of it cause NOT interested.

Seriously, what is rhe HOA? It is NOT a "They or Them". It is "UOU and YOUR neighbors". The very pockets your talking about are your own and your neighbors. It is like a poker game where you ante into a "Kitty". You pay to play and the ones with the best hand or bluff gets the pot.

Your basically going to sue the pot/Kitty because during the game the pot got raised and a few good hands won. The money raised was not from a player. So when you demand that money back, you still have to keep your bet on the table, raise your bet, and everyone else's bet to match. What then do you win in the end? NOT the money on the table. You just made the stakes go higher over something inflated.

Tryong to break this down to understandable real world terms.

Former HOA President

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Understandable, real world terms would simply be that an owner in an HOA wishes to see the books and conduct an audit. The reason for that is completely irrelevant, yet you seem to be positively adamant in your resistance to his review of the books. Why is that Melissa? Why should ANY owner be prevented from reviewing the finances of their HOA for whatever reason they believe necessary?

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I have no issue at all seeing the books. It is the intent and what they are trying to do with the information. They stating they are going to sue regardless that at one point the HOA agreed to let them look. The person even showed them a copy of the check. It does not sound like it is being hidden.
However, the records requesting on non collections has no bearing or relevance on what they want. They say the HOA collected insurance money fraudalently. They want records of non paying members??? The request of the records does not help them in this case.

In the end look at the REALITY. Trying to prove that their HOA collected fraudalent funds and dispersed them only to board members. The only result in proving this argument is that the HOA as a whole is found guilty and ALL the members MUST pay back all of tnis money. It will NOT just be those board members. The money is going to evaporate plus everyone have to pay more money for legal bills...

Former HOA President

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

I understand that when it comes to possible ill-gotten gains on behalf of the HOA and/or the board, you're of the opinion that they should keep quiet. If the HOA (or board) has funds that they shouldn't have, then no harm, no foul in giving them back, right?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Do you actually think they would leave incriminating evidence for me to see? Why don't they just release what my CPA is asking for? What are they hiding if they are not releasing it?
Did you ever think about these things or are you just thinking HOAs are good , with all the evidnece presented they are still on the up and up and try to convince me of that ?

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

I know you are trying to change the subject but I won't let you. Even others have answered you that they have no reason to suspect unless somebody brings proof to them and I can't because they have closed the books and I can only now file lawsuit to get this information and take it to them and let the people if found guilty to go to prison. I know you don't want to hear that and I can't let you ramble on , on purpose so i am holding you to this question. Tell me one good reason why they will not release the information below:

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

How do you know ? Are you a CPA? My CPA has requested these for a full audit of the books, which is all paid by me.

The intent is to prove the fraud which I am suspecting. Just a suspicion should be enough for even somebody like you who needs HOAs to probably survive financially, to give in.

AminB
Posts: 313

Posted:

Thank you. I would love to see her answer to that. I don't hold my breath on that. She would probably ramble on giving us a story of trees and forests and try to change the subject. My guess is that she will have no direct answer to that because she is afraid of another black eye on the HOA industry and affect her livelihood.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Okay you win! You win it all! You prove your fraud and have your proof. It is in your hand! Now you give that proof to FEMA. They then investigate. Use your proof that you paid for. So now what?

I am forcing you to look at the results of your actions if you win. What did you win? Proof that the HOA committed fraud. Which in turns makes ALL the members guilty of that fraud. Since you ALL make up the HOA. Again it means all that money fraudulently gathered and dispersed has to be paid back. It will NOT come out of the board member's pocket. They are insured and protected by the HOA insurance. The money will have to come from ALL you homeowners/members of the HOA to pay back.

A HOA is a NON-PROFIT corporation. It is to spend the SAME amount of money it collects as it spends out on the care and maintenance of the HOA. So if they did get $4K, it sound like it went to repairs than a new car...

You don't even know what your going to win and the results. What money is to be made in a HOA? It is ALL volunteer and run by volunteers. It is ONLY funded by it's members for it's members. It is a NON-PROFIT. Where is all of this money that supposedly we "Pro-HOA" people live off of and gather? Last time I checked I paid money TO a HOA. It wasn't giving me any. Plus if a HOA had a profit, it would be subjected to taxes...

Get it please that you are causing more damage for your own needs and wants. It's NOT for the rest of the membership... Your subjecting them all to paying more to cover what damage your bringing to them in your "Fight for them".

Former HOA President

AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AminB on 07/31/2013 6:01 AM
I know you are trying to change the subject but I won't let you. Even others have answered you that they have no reason to suspect unless somebody brings proof to them and I can't because they have closed the books and I can only now file lawsuit to get this information and take it to them and let the people if found guilty to go to prison. I know you don't want to hear that and I can't let you ramble on , on purpose so i am holding you to this question. Tell me one good reason why they will not release the information below:

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

Amin, I do not care why you are asking for these documents, that is your business. But I must state again, that most management companies use software programs that give monthly statements that contain various information. Some of that information found on these reports is actual spending versus budgeted amounts for each expenditure. If you take all 12 months and use a spreadsheet or a piece of paper to note each expenditure (add up all 12 months) and then the projected budget (again, add up all 12 months) you will have the 1st item you asked for.... Actual v Budget Comparison. I do not know, nor do I care, what information you expect to glean from this report. Budgets rarely end up being the exact prediction of expenditures.

Do you know for certain that your HOA was subject to an audit for those years? If you are certain, send the association management company and copy the association attorney, a letter, asking for a copy at YOUR EXPENSE of reports of audits done during those years. Send it certified mail, return receipt. If you are certain the audit was done and if you are denied the copy, take that information along with your return receipt from the post office to the folks you contacted that wont act unless you have proof. When you contact that agency, I would also copy the state attorney or attorney general (whichever is the position in your state), and every resident in your HOA. If money is no object, send all these correspondence certified mail as well. Good Luck!

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Amin

I ask again:

Amin

In a post dated 07/27 you said the association/management company invited you to come inspect the records. Why are you now saying you must file a legal action to do so?

In your replies it might be easier for all if you said who the reply was specific to.

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