Tiring of the Mike and Jon Contest

Please,

What are you trying to pull?

I don't ever respond to that guys vicious, personal attacks.

There are others who give him both barrels routinely though.

Where did you get the idea to use my name in regards to this poster?

An "old gay married couple"??? What an offensive, ignorant comment. Shame on you.k

Whoopiee!

Feels like I am back at a board meeting, where the most ignorant asses in the community gather!

And everyone else stays home!

If you don't understand how that is not offensive, I can't help you. But it is.

The last time I checked "Same sex marriage" was legal in some states. So to state that two people of the SAME sex having an argument sound like a "Gay marriage" is a REALITY and NOT an insult. Just maybe the "Old" part went to far... Really deal with the reality here folks. Gay couples exist, they fight, and they get married...

How is that ignorant? 2 people of the same sex are called a "gay couple". How is that an insult? It is a FACT. To take as an insult is instead showing of your own insecurities and ignorance. Do you have something against gay people that you don't want to recognize their ability to marry?

These guys keep sticking it to eachother and fill up pages with useless fighting... I call it as I see it... A great gay marriage in the making...

I am homophobic because I support gay marriage and recognize the rights of same sex couples? Me thinks taking the stament of gay marriage to be an insult is your own homophpic thoughts or feelings. I assure you those are not mine. Gay married people can fight just like heterosexual couples do. Oh and they can have kids! You feel like being adopted???

Seriously 2 people of the same sex get married it is called a gay marraige...Two straight people get married it's called "work"

Sir I do not know you but you came here to be part of a fight You were not even part of. You called me names and threatened me. All in your mind there was even an insult directed to anyone. You took offense to the gay marriage comment. These two have been fighting and bickering. So I called the fight between two men like a gay married couple. They would not be in a straight marriage with each other. However, when 2 people fight and bicker it is referred to as "fighting like an okd married couple" In this case 2 men would then make this a gay married couple. Them being old would then bde like an "Old gay marriage"

So I stand by my statement as has been explained in clear english the intent and in regards of which it is intended. You being insulted or calling me ignorant just proves it you with the issue not me.

My problem withm me is NOT your problem with me... Deal...

Melissa,

I think the insult was using the word gay and perhaps old.

Had you simply said "your acting like a bickering married couple" it likely wouldn't have been taken as insulting. I don't think you intended it as an insult. However, using certain terminology can be insulting to others. It's the old political correctness issue.

Guess I was being too progressive in my political correctness. Last check gay marriage was legal and a used term even by the media. Just not enough "old" married ones to catch up with the times...

Next time I will try not to say two Transvestites fighting in drag over a pair of shoes when there is a stupid fight going on... Pissing contest sounds so much better...

Ray,

If you don't take the time to explain why something said or posted is offensive, that individual may never realize it is. I have often said things that, though my own ignorance and lack of information, did not realize was offensive. However, when people took the time to explain what it was that I said that was offensive and why it was offensive, I was actually embarrassed by it and apologized to those it was said to. I then try to not do it again.

I have realized and tell people up front that I don't get subtle hints. That they should be direct with me and to please stay with it while, because I am human, go through that first few seconds of defensiveness that everyone initially has. I explain that if they are direct and stick with me I can actually learn from the issue so I don't unintentionally disparage or insult them in the future.

Of course, I would have never realized this had someone not taken the time to explain it to me.

OK, I really wanted to pass on this one because a post is a no-win exercise in futility

But...I have grown tired and weary in life of all of the PC behavior and trying to always blame both parties equally. Too much Dr. Phil/Oprah non-sense for me, so I'll call it as I see it.

I did not waste too much time going back into all of the threads it was suggested that I read. I like to make up my own mind about things. What I have observed in the brief period I have been here are several threads that are started that mention 'Mike' somehow. It does seem to be a little childish.

I do not always agree with Mike. My reference to Braveheart was not one solely of admiration as I thought the character in the movie could go over the top on occasion. But then again, can't we all?

But Mike has certainly echoed some concerns many of us have first hand experience with, and on most occasions has done so eloquently. Again, most occasions. Like the rest of us humans we are entitled to or allowed brief respites from rational behavior.

The other individual though seems to ALWAYS take shots at multiple posters even when they are not involved in the discussion. Maybe this is the area of the country he resides in, or maybe he is just a .... His responses, IMO, seldom deal with the issue at large but mainly serve up character assassinations. I continue to read Mike's posts, but I now always by-pass Jon's lengthy condemnations.

Please, quit treating these behaviors as on the same level. Mike can agitate, and his position is unwavering which at times causes me to question his objectiveness; however, I have not see unrelenting attacks by him on specific individuals every time they post.

And since we are at it, I would like to mention another irritation. Some of you have posted this site is for HOA leaders, which almost implies to me you think members are servants and their voice is not necessary to hear. I would argue you are the first who need to listen more. And I bet the owners of this site know a little disharmony helps them market this place as more hits no doubt occur when we are not all "singing on the same page". Our country's founding history was ripe with passion and emotion from the get go. Let's continue to honor that history with spirited debate, but leave the personal attacks at home. I'll can do better myself.

Thanks.

Frank,
Very well put!

TimB4,

I think this is totally symptomatic of the very problems with HOA board presidents. They make ignorant statements and then don't have the sense to back down. They feel they are always right and will bicker until the world runs out of oxygen in trying to justify their original incorrect statement/position.

This is the classic example of what so many people believe is wrong within HOA 'leadership" not the HOA's themselves.

"What's the difference between GOD and and HOA president? God does not think he is an HOA president!

You'd have a lot more credibility if you understood the difference between "your" and "you're" as well as their, there and they're.

It is an ignorant statement to make a comment calling Jon and Mike Gay. Your facts as yours alone and you can't or won't see it any other way.

To call non-gay men gay is considered hate speech because it is stereotyping and is used in a derogatory manner. It offends Gay people who would not want to be associated with either Jon or Mike and offends straight people because it is hate speech.

If you don't understand the nuance, then there is little hope for you.

By backing down, it is meant to say that you acknowledge that you have offended some people. But you go on and on standing by your illogic.
neither Jon or Mike are gay for all we know. For all we know Jon and Mike could be the same person using multiple aliases on this forum to yank peoples chains. It is just wrong for you to use that terminology which is offensive. It is even more wrong for you to continue your attempts at justifying your use of the phrase.

Go down fighting.... no matter how you look at it, it is a no win situation for you. Now you are digging yourself a deeper hole with the use of the calling a spade, a spade remark. You just come off as arrogant and a bigot. Yet another set of traits that many people associate with HOA board president. Many people have the first hand experience to back up their perceptions.

By all means, continue your self justification of using these phrases. You're (see, not your) making Mike's argument legitimate at this point.

This morphed into a discussion over whether “an old gay married couple” is or isn’t offensive, so let me try again to bring it back to the original item.

Regarding Mike and Jon, it would be best for everyone to agree to disagree in a civil manner and move on, although it seems to me Mike usually sets things off by yelling about how God-awful HOAs are. To you, Mike, I say this (for that matter, this could apply to anyone who comes here and craps on HOAs):

OK, you don’t like HOAs. You don’t like the one you live in, you’ve filed lawsuits against them, you want them all abolished, you feel HOA boards are incompetent, stupid, crooked and all that. Ok, we get that, but what I still don’t understand is why you continue to come to this site.

It’s supposed to exist for HOA board members, volunteers and other homeowners (volunteer or not) to exchange ideas and suggestions on how to run their communities correctly, in a most cost effective manner, and so on. That doesn’t mean that everyone will agree or disagree – if nothing else, you get to look at a problem from different perspectives and perhaps find an approach you can adapt to your own community.

Yes, I know some HOAs are truly wretched (yours may be one of them) and if their Boards and homeowners cannot or refuse to act like responsible adults, roll up their sleeves and work together, they get what they deserve. However, in your case Mike, it seems to me that every time someone, anyone, asks a question about something going on in their HOA, you start wailing about how awful they are? What is your end game in doing all this?

Do you want everyone to suddenly say “hell yes, HOAs are bad, bad bad?” and start a movement to eliminate all of them? Do you simply want to annoy everyone? We know you don’t like your HOA and for whatever reason, haven’t made an effort to move, so why not come up with a constructive suggestion on how not to run a HOA as badly as you think yours has been one?

Yes, Jon can be abrupt in his comments, but personally, I find him on point most of the time. Everyone has to understand that in the end, no one will care more about your home than you do, and if you’re going to live in a HOA where the quality of life depends partly on how well other people (most of whom you never met until you moved into the community) manage the community, you need to get involved. No, it won't be easy, yes, you will disagree and make mistakes, but as Yoda says in Star Wars - do or do not do - there is no try. If it still doesn't work, you can stay at home and fume - or leave that community, watch things go to hell from afar and have a good laugh.

It’s just like politics – we yell long and loud on what Congress, the state legislature, the President, etc. are doing or not, but we, the people, are the ones who put them there. And if you didn’t bother to vote, guess what, you STILL put them there because the small factions who were motivated to go to the polls did so – while the rest of you just sat at home and complained about how the country is going to hell in a hand basket.

I’ve been on my board for almost 10 years and am stepping down in January. I know there are things we could have done differently, but I think I’ve given it my best shot – I’m not going to just sit and watch the place go to pot without at least trying to make things better. I can only speak for my association, but I know all the board members work hard and we’ve been very clear on what’s being done and why. If people have a better plan, I have no problems whatsoever about hearing them out – and perhaps it IS a better plan and we need to put it in effect.

But if all you’re going to do is complain, what did you accomplish? After all this time, people still continue to come here and ask questions and most of us do the best we can in helping them think the matter through and offer suggestions. If your goal is to turn everyone against HOAs, your plan isn’t working very well – and maybe it’s time you found a different approach.

DITTO

Hilarious!

This and every other arguement on this or any other forum is pointless but it can't be avoided, its human nature.

No matter how good of a debater you are, you're not likely to change anyone's mind.

Once something is added to your collection of beliefs, you protect it from harm and you do it instinctively and unconsciously.

Over time, you become less skeptical of those things which allow you to continue seeing your beliefs and attitudes as true and proper.

But hey, like I said before, 'people are gonna do what people are gonna do'.

Therefore there will always be some form of judging and berating [Translation: Pi$$ing Contest] here at this:

"...positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn".

Seeing those who judge being judged... Hilarious.

And when this 'cast of regulars' has passed on and faded like all the previous ones(myself, I mean selves, included), they'll be another to take its place and continue the HOA Talk 'tradition'.

I don't follow...

The use of "emporers new clothes" as an idiom here is incorrect.
In that case "no one believes, but everyone believes that everyone else believes".

I think your reply is totally inappropriate. While most of your posts offer very little useful information, you have now reached new heights. Your insult to members of the gay and lesbian community has now place on this board.

I meant "no" place on this board. Wish we had an edit function.

Hijacking--but I felt myself inhale sharply when I read Melissa's comment. A few years ago I would not have been sensitive to it. Perhaps she said it in the flurry of responding, but the fact that she continued to defend her language without apology, against the rational explanations of why it was offensive is unconscionable.
To the thread: I saw my own first and sincerely questioning article inflated to double by Jon's unrelenting attack (and bickering with FredO), alleging that I couldn't possibly win my court case (I did) and that I was being less than honest in my representation of the language of my HOA documents (I wasn't). I admit I am being less critical of Fred because he supported my premise, even while the topic disintegrated with the two of them resorting to childish insults that had nothing to do with my initial question.

OutC, I did a sharpe intake of breath when Melissa chimed in about skimpy bikinis being the attire for poolside board

meetings.

(Not in outrage though...)

I think she just goes for the dramatic.

Not a bickering married couple, oh no...it must be a bickering married GAY couple.

Gives it a little more oommpphh or something.

Dramatic.

Thats Melissa.

Yes logins can be manipulated.
However, reporting the issue has had success in the past.

I am so happy this post came out. I haven't commented regarding Jon or Mike in other posts because those were not the focus of the original poster. So I ignored commenting on Mike/Jon issue and just focused on the original poster's question.

But now is my chance to express my feelings in an appropriate post.

The truth is that not all HOA board members and managers are "good". There are good ones and bad ones. Just because Jon and Melissa are on a good HOA doesn't mean that everyone else is.

It really irritates me that when someone has a bad one and seeks help on this forum, immediately Jon and Melissa attack that person saying it must be their fault. Then that person has to explain more to show that it isn't so and they still get attacked because somehow they didn't do enough to get involved in the board to fix it.

Mike's reaction to these posts shares his troubles and provides advice that helps these troubled homeowners know that they are not alone. Granted this advice can be more helpful with some objective tips which Carol and Tim are wonderful at providing.

Homeowners/Board members who come on here with problems do not deserve attacks, they deserve nonjudgemental advice that can help them solve their problems. They get enough attacks and problems from their own dysfunctional HOA and don't need to get it here too.

So, please, Jon and Melissa, be more considerate of what others may be going through and look at it from their perspective, not your own and offer objective advice that doesn't attack who they are and blame them for their problems.

And Mike, offer some steps that they can take to solve their problems rather than just offering a "me too".