HowardL1 (California)
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
Can 2 board members meet privately to discuss budget issues without giving notice to the members of the HOA?
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unannounced meeting
Started by HowardL1 • 24 replies • 1861 views
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JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
yes
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Howard is in CA. You Davis Sterling folks jump on in and help him.
Now in SC, we (the entire BOD for that matter) can meet anytime we want to and discuss anything we want to. As long as we do not convene a meeting and do not do association business it is not a "formal" meeting. A get together for say drinks and a casual discussion about the budget would be peachy cream fine in SC
Y'all are welcome.
Now in SC, we (the entire BOD for that matter) can meet anytime we want to and discuss anything we want to. As long as we do not convene a meeting and do not do association business it is not a "formal" meeting. A get together for say drinks and a casual discussion about the budget would be peachy cream fine in SC
Y'all are welcome.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Can they do it - yes. Is it against the statutes - depends on the number of Board members, if there are only three on the Board then they are in violation, if there are five, they aren't. Of course even if they are in violation, there is no real penalty.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Glen is correct.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 07/18/2013 3:29 PM
Glen is correct.
Glen is correct.
Not to disagree with Glen, but he would not be correct in SC. In CA and OH maybe, but not in SC.
We need to clarify/condition some advice we offer so one does not go off with the "wrong" advice for their locale.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Fair enough John, I saw the OP was in CA and answered without a warning to check local laws.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276
Posts: 276
Posted:
JohnC46;
OK, so you can do it John, but why would you want to? Is the BOD there to represent the interests of the community? If so, why the need to circumvent open meetings? Why anger or cause anxiety for your neighbors? If you have a difficult neighbor or two, you are just providing them more ammo to criticize the Board.
Life has taught me there is a huge abyss between what is allowed, and what is proper in many situations. This may be one of them. Please think about it.
OK, so you can do it John, but why would you want to? Is the BOD there to represent the interests of the community? If so, why the need to circumvent open meetings? Why anger or cause anxiety for your neighbors? If you have a difficult neighbor or two, you are just providing them more ammo to criticize the Board.
Life has taught me there is a huge abyss between what is allowed, and what is proper in many situations. This may be one of them. Please think about it.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It makes logistical sense. Consider this. We have meetings 1 time a month. They are open. However, that also means that would be the ONLY time the board would meet together as well to discuss issues. That would be in front of the membership. If we don't communicate BEFORE the meeting at some point, how well does that make the board work?
The membership expects the board to be on the SAME page/Front. However, if you not allowed to talk but only at meetings, then how can one have a unified front to present the membership? It makes it look rather chaotic that the board is putting it's decisions together right in front of the membership at that same time.
Budget setting annually is the responsibility of the board. I say it is a good idea to have a meeting even if it's just 2 of you at a time to get that inline before the meeting. We did not have "Executive/exclusive" meetings. However, if I had a decision to make before a meeting I would contact each board member for their feedback. The result of which were given at the board meeting.
Otherwise how is the daily business of a HOA is supposed to go on if there are only 12 meetings a year? It takes 2 months just to ratify and accept the minutes if you use the once a month meeting process. So before you go all complaining and secret agenda finding.... You may want to be happy your board is communicating with each other to get business done.
The membership expects the board to be on the SAME page/Front. However, if you not allowed to talk but only at meetings, then how can one have a unified front to present the membership? It makes it look rather chaotic that the board is putting it's decisions together right in front of the membership at that same time.
Budget setting annually is the responsibility of the board. I say it is a good idea to have a meeting even if it's just 2 of you at a time to get that inline before the meeting. We did not have "Executive/exclusive" meetings. However, if I had a decision to make before a meeting I would contact each board member for their feedback. The result of which were given at the board meeting.
Otherwise how is the daily business of a HOA is supposed to go on if there are only 12 meetings a year? It takes 2 months just to ratify and accept the minutes if you use the once a month meeting process. So before you go all complaining and secret agenda finding.... You may want to be happy your board is communicating with each other to get business done.
Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Frank
I advocate for open meetings at all times. Also allowing a time for owners to speak at the meeting. I say feel free to record every meting.
The issue I have is with states that prohibit members of the BOD to get together to say hash out the budget. What I would call a working session.
As an example. In some states it is prohibited for the President and Treasure to get together to sign dual signature checks. 3 person BOD. When The President and Treasurer get together they constitute a majority of the BOD (2 of the 3) and as such it is a BOD Meeting and all owners must be notified. Give me a break.
Some on here have gone as far as saying they saw a few members of a BOD talking together at a party and said that constitutes a BOD Meeting.
In SC we cannot do business. We cannot make motions. We cannot vote. What we can do is get together and have a working session. Like sign checks.
I advocate for open meetings at all times. Also allowing a time for owners to speak at the meeting. I say feel free to record every meting.
The issue I have is with states that prohibit members of the BOD to get together to say hash out the budget. What I would call a working session.
As an example. In some states it is prohibited for the President and Treasure to get together to sign dual signature checks. 3 person BOD. When The President and Treasurer get together they constitute a majority of the BOD (2 of the 3) and as such it is a BOD Meeting and all owners must be notified. Give me a break.
Some on here have gone as far as saying they saw a few members of a BOD talking together at a party and said that constitutes a BOD Meeting.
In SC we cannot do business. We cannot make motions. We cannot vote. What we can do is get together and have a working session. Like sign checks.
FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276
Posts: 276
Posted:
Melissa & John,
I don't think we expect all members of our Board to be on the same page all of the time. Multiple independent voices ought to have different perspectives that need to be hashed out. Letting the membership observe how the sausage is made is OK. Ever turn on C-Span?
Your words go to the heart of what some of us see as the major problems with HOAs. The Board should assign committees for budget issues and other issues that need input from the membership. To me it seems some of you think the Board should be doing all of the work-they should not. Let the committees also hold open meetings, but bring their consensus to the open Board meetings. After the committee presents their findings, allow the Board members to state their positions based off of what they learned from the committee. Then open it up for membership feedback. Vote if a clear consensus within the community is apparent or do not hesitate to send it back to the committee if obvious information needed for a decision is lacking.
Too often what each of you have stated appears to be excuses as to why you must secretly to conduct the HOA's business. The best way to avoid conflict is for the Board to be as transparent as possible. If you don't have the time to allow the process to function properly, and that is your justification for meeting with other Board members, then get off of your Boards.
Do we really need legislation to instruct people how to best represent their membership? The ONLY way to do that is to hear and LISTEN to their voices. You can not do that when you continue to meet privately. Establish 'E-meetings' if you must, but don't exclude the membership from any portion of the process they want to know about! You are only inviting criticism when you do.
It amazes me how some of you blast the apathy in your communities, but then justify ways for members not to be involved. Really, some of you are ready for political careers in that you do a great job speaking out of both sides of your mouths
You want involvement, but only when it agrees with you.
I don't think we expect all members of our Board to be on the same page all of the time. Multiple independent voices ought to have different perspectives that need to be hashed out. Letting the membership observe how the sausage is made is OK. Ever turn on C-Span?
Your words go to the heart of what some of us see as the major problems with HOAs. The Board should assign committees for budget issues and other issues that need input from the membership. To me it seems some of you think the Board should be doing all of the work-they should not. Let the committees also hold open meetings, but bring their consensus to the open Board meetings. After the committee presents their findings, allow the Board members to state their positions based off of what they learned from the committee. Then open it up for membership feedback. Vote if a clear consensus within the community is apparent or do not hesitate to send it back to the committee if obvious information needed for a decision is lacking.
Too often what each of you have stated appears to be excuses as to why you must secretly to conduct the HOA's business. The best way to avoid conflict is for the Board to be as transparent as possible. If you don't have the time to allow the process to function properly, and that is your justification for meeting with other Board members, then get off of your Boards.
Do we really need legislation to instruct people how to best represent their membership? The ONLY way to do that is to hear and LISTEN to their voices. You can not do that when you continue to meet privately. Establish 'E-meetings' if you must, but don't exclude the membership from any portion of the process they want to know about! You are only inviting criticism when you do.
It amazes me how some of you blast the apathy in your communities, but then justify ways for members not to be involved. Really, some of you are ready for political careers in that you do a great job speaking out of both sides of your mouths
You want involvement, but only when it agrees with you.MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It is NOT very secret. All the cost are in the financial reports at the meeting. All explained. Plus consider the board members are elected to handle the daily business of the HOA. If you want to be part of that then run for board. Otherwise board members will talk outside of meetings together so that business is done then report it at the meetings. Not all situations need to be discussed due to personal or legal reasons.
Good grief you still have a say at the meeting and the power to remove board members. Why keep up with the secret conspiracies?
Good grief you still have a say at the meeting and the power to remove board members. Why keep up with the secret conspiracies?
Former HOA President
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Frank the idea of a budget committee is a valid one, IF you can get enough homeowners to volunteer for it. But in states with massive HOA statutes you have the same problems with committee members meeting as you do with Board members meeting.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276
Posts: 276
Posted:
Glen, thanks.
Melissa, once again members of my HOA do not have a say. People will volunteer if their contributions actually count. Mike has said it numerous times here, meetings at some HOAs are just a formality-the course of action has already been decided prior. Especially with budgets, the process ought to be taken seriously with no plan until the membership meeting is conducted. Board members should talk on making sure they bring all pertinent information to the meeting for example, but they should conduct the meeting only. Past budgets, contractual commitments etc. should be shared as a starting point but involvement after that is a necessity for a healthy community.
If you believe you were elected to conduct the members' business, then conduct it with their full input. Even if people don't show up, still conduct it at the meeting. Really, if people don't show up, then what's the problem? You are still able to talk freely amongst yourselves as no one is there! Melissa, quit talking out of both sides of your mouth
Melissa, once again members of my HOA do not have a say. People will volunteer if their contributions actually count. Mike has said it numerous times here, meetings at some HOAs are just a formality-the course of action has already been decided prior. Especially with budgets, the process ought to be taken seriously with no plan until the membership meeting is conducted. Board members should talk on making sure they bring all pertinent information to the meeting for example, but they should conduct the meeting only. Past budgets, contractual commitments etc. should be shared as a starting point but involvement after that is a necessity for a healthy community.
If you believe you were elected to conduct the members' business, then conduct it with their full input. Even if people don't show up, still conduct it at the meeting. Really, if people don't show up, then what's the problem? You are still able to talk freely amongst yourselves as no one is there! Melissa, quit talking out of both sides of your mouth
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Not talking out of but one. I have held enough open meetings and even studied meetings in college. It was part of my Project Mangement course. The first thing I would get at the meetings when people attended was Does the board not be on the same page when coming to the meetings. It looks so disorganized and everyone arguing. This in front of the membership who is sitting there forced to listen to it all with no real feedback. Once the board makes a decision together then it is presented for feedback.
It just looks unproffessional for your board not to have talked before a meeting. NOT saying it should be a group meeting but one on one sessions.
It seems your the one who wants it both ways. You want a committee to meet together and then go to the meeting to present to the group. What is the difference? Considering a board member is a laison on the committees.
It just looks unproffessional for your board not to have talked before a meeting. NOT saying it should be a group meeting but one on one sessions.
It seems your the one who wants it both ways. You want a committee to meet together and then go to the meeting to present to the group. What is the difference? Considering a board member is a laison on the committees.
Former HOA President
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Melissa I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Although I have no problem with Board members getting together to talk about things informally, what you are describing is making a decision but not making it formal until the meeting. Now after the Board votes on an issue, whether you agree or not, then the Board should present a united front.
99.9% of Board decisions are routine and if I may be so bold mundane, that they rival watching paint dry as a recreational pastime. But it is that .1% that the Board needs to make sure it is open and above board with.
99.9% of Board decisions are routine and if I may be so bold mundane, that they rival watching paint dry as a recreational pastime. But it is that .1% that the Board needs to make sure it is open and above board with.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Everything was above board and open in my HOA. However, were their discussions outside of meetings? Sure but it was posted and communicated.
My approach to HOA is that it is leaving your checkbook on the dining room table in your family. Sure the parents are going to discuss if the kids get an xbox. They just may wait till a birthday or Santa Clause. Are the parents wrong?
My approach to HOA is that it is leaving your checkbook on the dining room table in your family. Sure the parents are going to discuss if the kids get an xbox. They just may wait till a birthday or Santa Clause. Are the parents wrong?
Former HOA President
FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276
Posts: 276
Posted:
Melissa,
Glen posted before I could exactly what I, and I am sure others, were thinking regarding your previous post. You may think everything was above board, but from my perspective it was not. Boards are not infallible. They may not have even considered all of the relevant facts until a member is given the opportunity to voice their concerns. To think otherwise is arrogant!
Meetings being harmonious is not the goal, no matter what they taught you in college-which I know for a fact are all about PC today. Getting it right the first time is what counts. A few "harmonious" meetings like you describe would have people throwing their hands up and say "why go to the meetings as my input will not be considered?" Then you will be the first to criticize for apathy within the community.
Glen is spot on though IMO about how the Board should act in unison after a decision has been reached.
Frank
Community Member
Glen posted before I could exactly what I, and I am sure others, were thinking regarding your previous post. You may think everything was above board, but from my perspective it was not. Boards are not infallible. They may not have even considered all of the relevant facts until a member is given the opportunity to voice their concerns. To think otherwise is arrogant!
Meetings being harmonious is not the goal, no matter what they taught you in college-which I know for a fact are all about PC today. Getting it right the first time is what counts. A few "harmonious" meetings like you describe would have people throwing their hands up and say "why go to the meetings as my input will not be considered?" Then you will be the first to criticize for apathy within the community.
Glen is spot on though IMO about how the Board should act in unison after a decision has been reached.
Frank
Community Member
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I agree with a lot of what you say, Frank. Let folks watch the sausage-making! It is NOT the board's duty & obligation to "look good" or "be on the same page" at open meetings. Our Board does openly make decisions that're in the best interest of the HOA as a whole. that is our job.
Melissa's methods would be totally illegal in CA, the home of the OP. The penalty could be a court ordering the HOA to comply with state laws.
John46 gets the prize for the most illogical assertion: "As an example. In some states it is prohibited for the President and Treasure to get together to sign dual signature checks. 3 person BOD. When The President and Treasurer get together they constitute a majority of the BOD (2 of the 3) and as such it is a BOD Meeting and all owners must be notified. Give me a break."
Now if a quorum of the Board, 2 in this case, happen to sign checks at the same time & place, it is because the Board has given them that authority. that authority rests with the office. The chaos that they are signing ALREADY had been approved by the Board in open meetings either via contract approval that needs monthly signatures, or other projects over a certain amount. Signing the check is NOT a potential future agenda item. So, John46, what states prohibit a quorum of the Board from signing checks together?
Melissa's methods would be totally illegal in CA, the home of the OP. The penalty could be a court ordering the HOA to comply with state laws.
John46 gets the prize for the most illogical assertion: "As an example. In some states it is prohibited for the President and Treasure to get together to sign dual signature checks. 3 person BOD. When The President and Treasurer get together they constitute a majority of the BOD (2 of the 3) and as such it is a BOD Meeting and all owners must be notified. Give me a break."
Now if a quorum of the Board, 2 in this case, happen to sign checks at the same time & place, it is because the Board has given them that authority. that authority rests with the office. The chaos that they are signing ALREADY had been approved by the Board in open meetings either via contract approval that needs monthly signatures, or other projects over a certain amount. Signing the check is NOT a potential future agenda item. So, John46, what states prohibit a quorum of the Board from signing checks together?
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
"Chaos," of course, should have read "checks." I'm a terrible typist!
EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FrankS10 on 07/19/2013 9:03 AM
Establish 'E-meetings' if you must, but don't exclude the membership from any portion of the process they want to know about! You are only inviting criticism when you do.
Establish 'E-meetings' if you must, but don't exclude the membership from any portion of the process they want to know about! You are only inviting criticism when you do.
I have suggested that my board allow the membership to subscribe to board meetings that are conducted by e-mail and have access to archived e-mails, but the board is unwilling to do that. Software is available cheap and free that can provide those features.
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 07/18/2013 2:47 PM
Can they do it - yes. Is it against the statutes - depends on the number of Board members, if there are only three on the Board then they are in violation, if there are five, they aren't. Of course even if they are in violation, there is no real penalty.
Can they do it - yes. Is it against the statutes - depends on the number of Board members, if there are only three on the Board then they are in violation, if there are five, they aren't. Of course even if they are in violation, there is no real penalty.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Eric, why can't a bunch of you owners band together and pressure the Board to be open? Mail each director with individual letters or a peition-style demands that they follow your state laws. People Power can work in HOAs--it worked in ours.
Re: email meetings. A couple of our directors are terrible writers and would not communicate well by email. I also think debate would be difficult. How would the presider actually preside?
Re: email meetings. A couple of our directors are terrible writers and would not communicate well by email. I also think debate would be difficult. How would the presider actually preside?
EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 07/21/2013 3:45 PM
Eric, why can't a bunch of you owners band together and pressure the Board to be open? Mail each director with individual letters or a peition-style demands that they follow your state laws. People Power can work in HOAs--it worked in ours.
Eric, why can't a bunch of you owners band together and pressure the Board to be open? Mail each director with individual letters or a peition-style demands that they follow your state laws. People Power can work in HOAs--it worked in ours.
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11
Re: email meetings. I think debate would be difficult. How would the presider actually preside?
Re: email meetings. I think debate would be difficult. How would the presider actually preside?
A big problem with e-mail meetings is that some of the participants can go outside of any official forum in order to have private discussion and nobody else would be aware what they were missing.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Eric, I don't believe when Frank said E-Meeting he meant e-mail meeting, if you thought meetings were long before, wait for someones two fingered pecking to get their point out. I think when he said E-Meeting he was referring to an Electronic Meeting via Skype or something similar to allow homeowners to watch from home.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
FrankS10 (Kansas)
Posts: 276
Posts: 276
Posted:
I mean any form of e-meeting that works for the community in question, so all of the above. One size doesn't fit all so let each one develop what works for them.
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