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MaryC21 (Minnesota)
Posts: 7
Posted:
I live in an association in Minnesota that consists of single family homes and townhomes. We also have a community building with exercise and locker rooms and a pool. There is a city park right next to us and it is a very family-oriented community, not a senior area at all.

Up until now, I have pretty much not paid attention to what goes on with the association. However, they recently mailed out new pool rules that added ADULT ONLY hours to our pool time from 8-10 in the morning and 9-10 at night. Previous pool hours were 10-9 for everyone.

I responded to the management agent that my family would like to use the pool at 9am also because I work at 12 and it gives me time to swim with my child before going to work. After all, this is Minnesota and our pool season is limited. I also let her know that ADULT ONLY hours are in violation of the Fair Housing Act.

Without so much as a phone call to let me know they are aware of my concern, they simply mailed out new pool rules that now said "ADULT ONLY LAP SWIM"

I then called the management agent to let her know I would have appreciated a call as a professional courtesy to let me know that they considered my concern.

I have two questions -

1. I believe that ADULT ONLY LAP SWIM is still a violation under the Fair Housing Act. Am I correct? I do realize that they could have LAP SWIM, but putting the words ADULT ONLY in front of it should be a violation.

2. She also told me that community input is not required when making a decision like this. I understand that is correct, but don't board members have a duty to be responsible to the community?

A couple more points, I wouldn't have cared if it was before 9:00. Also, there are others in the neighborhood who are concerned about the lack of communication.

Thanks a ton!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryC21 on 07/08/2013 7:14 AM

Up until now, I have pretty much not paid attention to what goes on with the association. However, they recently mailed out new pool rules that added ADULT ONLY hours to our pool time from 8-10 in the morning and 9-10 at night. Previous pool hours were 10-9 for everyone.

OK, the old pool hours that you did not have an issue with were 10-9 for everyone.

That hasn't been taken away. They only added adult swim only times.

I'm confused on how you didn't have a problem before but do now?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
You are correct in it can be Lap Swim but Adult only is verboten. Our Board too sets the swim rules, while they should take the communities concerns into account, you can't please everyone but you sure better do things that don't leave you open for a visit from the feds.

What is the penalty for violating "lap times"?

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MaryC21 (Minnesota)
Posts: 7
Posted:
How are you confused? They are giving some community members exclusive rights to the pool. If others can use the pool from 8-10, I would like to use it as well.
MaryC21 (Minnesota)
Posts: 7
Posted:
The penalty is they will take away our rights to the pool. I.E. turn off our key fobs.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
It is not clear to me that "adult-only" times are a violation of the fair housing act. Perhaps posting specific text would be in order.

Implementing this sort of rule without discusssion or comment is not a good procedure.

Having said that, I have sometimes thought that I would like to have adult-only hours at my pool.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I have seen adult times only every 15 minutes on the hour.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryC21 on 07/08/2013 7:35 AM

If others can use the pool from 8-10, I would like to use it as well.

Mary,

With this comment and Glens comments I do see the issue now.

If, as glen said, they can set times for lap swims only, then I see now issue with you having your children swim laps.

As Fred suggested, if Glen could provide the basis for his statement, you may have something to take to your Board.

MaryC21 (Minnesota)
Posts: 7
Posted:
The Act says you cannot discriminate use of facilities based on "familial status". There have been specific court cases that say you cannot use "adult only" language. The management agent however, has told me she will be getting a legal opinion that says they can use that language. I have asked to see a copy, but she says she does not have it yet.

I think some may be missing the point here. I am not totally opposed to "adult only" hours even though it does give certain community members exclusive rights to the pool, which is not fair.

I did not like how they went about changing the rule without notification or time for comments. They could have met me half way and changed the time to 9:30 perhaps.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Mary,

If you know the act, you may want to provide a copy of that act to the Board (I prefer to go directly to the Board as the MC works for the Board and may filter what you are attempting to say). Then suggest what you recently posted, a different time frame.

Perhaps using the approach that you don't think that the Board is aware that the recent change in pool use is in conflict with federal law. Then cite the act and provide a copy. Add that you are sure that this was not the intent of the Board and that now that they are aware of the issue that they address the conflict. Then provide your suggestions for pool hours.

Hope this helps,

Timi
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> you cannot use "adult only" language.

I'm still not persuaded. They ARE allowing use of the facilities, they are just not allowing all users at all times. This may well be answered by a careful reading, or even by previous court cases.

I do agree that creating and implementing the rule was apparently done in an undesirable (unallowable even?) manner.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
When our pool was operating, a few homeowners asked about adult only hours because the community's children used it most of the time and it wasn't conducive for laps or exercise - we were told we couldn't enact adult only hours for the same reason, so we didn't.

I also remember finding some language on the subject for an information sheet we sent to homeowners - don't remember where, but you might want to Google "Fair Housing Act and swimming pools" to find it. In fact, you can try searching old topics on this website and find information on the subject. Download that information and show it to your board.

Regarding community input, they probably don't need it, but I agree with you that community input is a good idea. I suspect the policy came up because of behavior (some adults do not supervise their children AT ALL) so it's easier to say something like

We're having problems with children (and teenagers?) using our pools - specify what type of problems are being seen
We'd considered instituting adult only hours, but can't because it violates the Fair Housing Act - and explain why
Here are our expectations regarding behavior of children, teens (and adults, for that matter) - explain where and how to file complaints and possible consequences are

Finally, ask the community for suggestions on the rules - what should be amended, added, removed, etc.

Good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
ADULT ONLY LAP SWIM = violation

LAP SWIM NO violation, absolutely 'legit'

be careful .... be very very careful ..........................................
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Can't cite the law, but I do know that use can't be restricted based on familial status.

Our pool hours are 5AM - midnight. We have two high rise towers and the occasional early morning or late night swimmers don't bother them. No complaints. We don't have many children in our downtown high rise, but in the summer a fair # of kids visit residents & use the pool. Any time of year, lap swimmers tend to swim in the early AM when there's basically no persons of any age in the pool to get in their way.

Do you think, Mary, the board would be willing to expand the hours further? If like here, the pool is always heated (year around here) anyway, so it won't increase expenses. If like here, lap swimmers will use those hours. If, of course, the goal is to rid the pool of those "pesky kids," they might be able to keep your child out of the pool with the lap swim hours. It seems to me that lap swimming only until 10AM is unreasonable.

Another way to think about it is that, assuming you're an owner, your dues--just like adult-only woners--pay to use the amenities. How an they be withheld form you??

In CA, Mary, but perhaps not in MN, our Board is required by law to send a notice to owners with proposed rules changes for a 30 day owners' comment period. This way, owners can give their opinions and also at the final open meeting on the topic. Whether or not MN has such a law, I agree with others that your Board handled the matter badly.

We do have rules against excessive noise, diving, roughhousing, "dunking" games, etc., which keeps it pretty quiet. Someone 18 or over must accompany kids under that age. While it hasn't happened, owners can be cited and eventually (2nd violation) called to hearing if they can't conduct themselves (& invitees) properly.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Sounds like management is determined to find a legal determination to permit their exclusion.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Adults Only and Lap Swimming Only are two distinct restrictions.

I would ask what the real issue is that's leading to the rules.
Is the problem that kids are swimming laps and must be stopped? Heaven forbid we have youths practicing for the swim team or *gasp* exercising.
Or perhaps we have adults and their unruly games of Marco Polo.

Moreover, what part of the bylaws are being supported by this rule? Boards can enact rules consistent with the bylaw intent, so what specifically are they addressing?

As others have pointed out, all odds are that they're unable to enact such a rule, but asking them a few questions is certainly good fun and food for thought.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
The OP lives in MN. The pool is only open for a few weeks a year. By the time this discussion ends, it will be an ice skating rink.........LOL
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Fred here you go this is from a previous post. Along with the pool regulations a HOA may ban such things as bike riding or skateboarding etc. but they cannot ban children only from doing any of these things.

Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 07/27/2010 10:41 AM
Erika a simple Google search of swim rules and HUD will give you a plethora of rulings on the subject but here are a few:

In HUD v. Paradise Gardens, a Florida administrative law judge ruled that a community association's rules limiting swimming pool use by children had no legitimate safety purpose and therefore violated the familial status provisions of the Federal Fair Housing Act. Paradise Gardens in Margate, Florida, had pool regulations which barred children under the age of 5 from the pool altogether and restricted 5 to 16 year olds to swimming between 11:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. The administrative law judge ruled that the time restrictions were actually intended to keep children from the pool completely because the hours available to them were when they were in school, or during summer vacation, at the time of most danger from the hot Florida sun. The judge also rejected health and safety arguments for barring younger children from the pool because expert testimony established that the sanitariness of a pool was unrelated to the age of the swimmers and that close parental supervision would assure the safety of children of any age. The association and three individuals were ordered to pay damages for emotional distress, humiliation and inconvenience to two complaining families $4,000 for one family and $3,500 for the other family. In addition, the judge assessed civil penalties of $3,000 against the association and $100 each against two of its spokespersons.

Federal judges in California have been equally protective of the rights of families with children. In the case of Llanos v. Coelho, a federal district judge held that an apartment complex's rules restricting children from swimming in several complex pools and from playing in "adult" areas violated the Federal Fair Housing Act. This case arose in the Del Monte Pines apartment complex in Fresno, California where a single mother with a baby daughter moved into the "adult" section of the complex. At the time she moved in, the Del Monte Pines was divided into a family section and an adult section. The complex had six swimming pools, of which only two were open to children. Children were also prohibited from riding bicycles, skating, riding skateboards, or playing in adult areas. The federal district judge concluded that the apartment complex's rules restricting children's access to certain facilities were discriminatory on their face. The judge rejected the apartment complex's arguments that the rules were required by a reasonable business reason and that they were justified by safety concerns for unsupervised children. He said that the prohibition on children playing in adult areas "effectively prohibit[ed] children from accessing a large area of the complex" and discriminated against families based on familial status.

An apartment complex in Torrance, California, discovered too late that its rule prohibiting children from playing in the building area at any time violated the Fair Housing Act. In the case of Fair Housing Congress v. Weber, a tenant and her minor son lived at the Vista De Anza Apartments for more than four years until they moved out after receiving an eviction notice. During the time they lived there, the apartment managers told the minor child not to splash in the swimming pool, bounce his basketball, or ride his bicycle. An apartment rule stated that children were not "allowed to play or run around inside the building area at any time because of disturbance to other tenants or damage the building property." The federal district judge held that the apartment complex's rule that prohibited children from playing in the building area was discriminatory on its face and violated the Fair Housing Act. The apartment complex maintained that the rule was justified because it accomplished the goals of insuring the children's safety and maintaining quiet. The judge found that these justifications were legitimate, but she concluded that the complex had not met its burden of showing that the rule was the least restrictive means of accomplishing these goals.


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MaryC21 (Minnesota)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Thank you everyone for the thoughtful suggestions! I will never understand why people can't work together.

And yes JohnC - it will be a skating rink. I would much rather live some place warm!
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
TO REPEAT:

ADULT ONLY LAP SWIM = violation

LAP SWIM NO violation, absolutely 'legit'


BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 07/08/2013 4:14 PM
Adults Only and Lap Swimming Only are two distinct restrictions.

I would ask what the real issue is that's leading to the rules.
Is the problem that kids are swimming laps and must be stopped? Heaven forbid we have youths practicing for the swim team or *gasp* exercising.
Or perhaps we have adults and their unruly games of Marco Polo.

Moreover, what part of the bylaws are being supported by this rule? Boards can enact rules consistent with the bylaw intent, so what specifically are they addressing?

As others have pointed out, all odds are that they're unable to enact such a rule, but asking them a few questions is certainly good fun and food for thought.

I just reposted Dave's answer, because it mirrors much wisdom: identify the BEHAVIOR, and work to eliminate it.

Is it noise? then eliminate the noise, don't eliminate "children" because it happened to be a kid who caused it. Is it barking? eliminate barking, not collies or beagles. Is it drunken revelry? then eliminate the drunken part, but don't ban all alcohol use.

You can't solve the problem until you identify it.

and, of course, the others who posted ID'ed that banning kids from the pool is flat out illegal, they get kudos for being pretty smart too.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Brian & Dave make good points. I identify the problem behavior and work to eliminate it. However legal keeping non-lap swimmers out of the pool xx hours per day deprives all dues-paying non lap swimmers of cooling off in the pool.

Along with some rules I posted previously on this thread, here are a few more of our pool rules that might be helpful if your HOA is revising its pool rules. I'm not saying they'd work for everyone as many pool and residential set ups are different than ours. We, for example, have 24/7 security & there're a couple of cameras at the pool.

5. NO PETS are allowed inside the pool/spa area enclosure at any time.

8. No infant, young child or person subject to involuntary natural bodily functions is permitted to use the pool or spa without proper and effective diaper protection.

9. Soft inflatable items are permitted but they must not interfere with other swimmers’ enjoyment of the pool. Small styrofoam kickboards and “noodles” also are allowed.

14. Bicycles, skateboards, scooters, roller-skates, roller-blades, or similar devices are not allowed in the pool area at any time.

21. Dry off thoroughly before entering the common areas/elevators to avoid causing slippery conditions. Footwear, shirts and cover-ups must be worn in all common areas except pool and BBQ areas.
MaryC21 (Minnesota)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Just want to thank everyone again for the very thoughtful answers. Very helpful! I will use these when addressing the board.

I plan to keep a more watchful eye on the board now!
MaryC21 (Minnesota)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Just want to thank everyone again for the very thoughtful answers. Very helpful! I will use these when addressing the board.

I plan to keep a more watchful eye on the board now!
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryC21 on 07/08/2013 7:14 AM
I believe that ADULT ONLY LAP SWIM is still a violation under the Fair Housing Act. Am I correct?

I don't agree that it is. The Fair Housing Act applies only to living accommodations. People don't live in a swimming pool. Someone would have to show me specifically where (paragraph #) in the Fair Housing Act swimming pools are mentioned.

Now, discrimination on the basis of age may be illegal in a public swimming pool, but an HOA pool is not a public pool. It is a private pool. I don't believe the discrimination laws apply to a private pool, a private club, or a private anything else.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:

Bruce, please see Glen's post on this thread of 07/09/2013 3:17 AM. Since we're in CA, the 2nd two cases were cited to us by our HOA attorney a couple of years ago when we re-wrote our pool rules.

What I still wonder is if HOAs can discriminate against non-lap swimmers by excluding them from the pool during certain hours.

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