"reasonable" ADA accomdations

Started by HeleneN • 14 replies • 2174 views

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HeleneN (Connecticut)
Posts: 84

Posted:

A request has been submitted by a unit owner(also a board member)to allow replacement of their slider windows to their back patio with French doors to accommodate access for her wheel chair confined husband. Also, they are seeking permission to have a walkway installed from the back patio along the side of the house around the front to their driveway and the removal of a tree to accommodate the walkway.
In the pass the board has been quick to allow handicap ramps from the front door to the driveway and in some instances handicap residents have installed handicap ramps within the garage to a doorway connecting to the interior without any visibility from the outside.
This community of 55+ is made up of 52 free standing homes on lots that are the property of the unit owner. They all have attached garages and also one walkway from the driveway to the front door. This community is governed by a Condo assoc. with reasonable restrictions on landscaping and architecture. This particular house is on a corner lot with high visibility.
The board is being pressured into allowing this accommodation based on the unit owner saying it's a reasonable request under ADA and also that the VA will be paying for it.
This has become a "hot potato" with some unit owners opposed saying this isn't reasonable. The requesting unit owner says it's not feasible for them to widen their front doorway or doorway to the garage.
Another caveat is that the Assoc. is responsible for snow and ice removal from all walkways. Though our snow removal contractor has liability insurance the Assoc. does not carry insurance on unit owned property. In the case of a slip and fall claim 52 unit owners could be liable even though the owner is saying they will be responsible for snow and ice removal.
Interested in your opinions and perhaps some experience with this sort of a request.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Helen

Several thoughts:

As I understand it ADA is for public accommodations and not applicable to private accommodations. Thus in your association the home owner cannot claim ADA Compliance.

Typically many associations require one to present and get approval for any changes even when a single home sitting on land they own. It seems your association has been accommodating for people with handicaps, especially those requiring a ramp. Thus I suggest you allow such in this case. I might request they also be required to plant a tree or two to makeup for the loss of a tree.

I was a bit confused on how snow and ice plays a role. How does the association handle such on present ramps? If you see it as different for the requested ramp, then get the owners to sign a waiver.

Hope this helps.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

imo: you MUST allow (actually you have virtually no control) over a person constructing a code compliant and inspected 'accomodation' on THEIR property

however, you do NOT have to maintain said item nor remove snow

SHAME SHAME SHAME for this even becoming an issue

imo: you WILL LOSE a court fight

ps. you do NOT have to allow on a common element

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

JohnC is right on the not having to fall into the ADA guidelines as a HOA. That is public guidelines. My question is are they asking for permission or for the HOA to pay for it? This shouldn't be a thing the HOA pays for but gives approval.

I am not sure the French door is the way to go either for them. I have one and it is a nuisance. Rather have the sliding glass. Which they may find an option that will allow better access for a door for more room to exit/enter through. A sliding glass door you can even install an addition for a "doggy door" while French doors you can not.

If they want snow removal, maybe the contractor can charge them extra to do what they want. It's kind of like asking our lawncare people to cut bushes on your yard. You pay for it on your own. It's not part of the service the HOA provides as a whole.

Former HOA President

JamesG (Connecticut)
Posts: 83

Posted:

As John stated, the provisions of ADA do not apply. However the provisions of the Fair Housing Act, some of which deal with accommodations for disability, do apply.

The is a very complex issue. In general reasonable accommodations must be approved. However, the associations view of reasonable may be different than that of the owner making the request.

It is strongly recommended that you consult with the associations attorney to avoid making a flawed decision.

Jim

MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500

Posted:

Helene,

I am curious. How wide is this person's wheelchair? It seems odd that it requires a French door to obtain a sufficient opening. How does this person get around inside the house; most interior doors are narrower than entrance doors?

But if he really needs that much width then the request sounds reasonable.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

One way to think about your problem is to do this exercise:

The HO's have asked for accomodation.

List all the objections that you consider "not reasonable", to that request:
we cannot allow the door to be modified because...
We cannot allow the sidewalk to be made because...
we cannot allow the tree to be removed because...

Once you have all the reasons, you have a starting point to work towards with the owner. Perhaps they can alter plan X, and make your objection moot. Or, they can agree to do Y, and you think that's reasonable.

Bottom line, you can agree to let them do it, or you can say it's not reasonable. If you agree, there's no issue. If you don't, you best have a list of things that aren't reasonable to present to them.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MatthewW4 on 07/03/2013 9:05 AM
Helene,

I am curious. How wide is this person's wheelchair? It seems odd that it requires a French door to obtain a sufficient opening. How does this person get around inside the house; most interior doors are narrower than entrance doors?

But if he really needs that much width then the request sounds reasonable.

Only thing I can think of is sliders have runners on the threshold. French doors do not. But I think rolling over the runner issue could be worked. I would probably have no issuer denying the door change.

MoM1 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Is the current slider door part of the common elements of the HOA? Is this slider visible from the street? If the answer to these questions is no, and the owner is going to pay for the remodel why deny this accommodation? Except for cutting down the tree, which most likely can be worked around, how unattractive is a sidewalk going to be going around the structure. The HOA has already allowed ramps at the front doors--how much of a change in visual design from the original are they?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

This really is something you should run by the HOA's attorney, since if you disallow it without good reasons and people thinking it is too visible is not a good reason, I would expect a visit from a nice government official who is just there to help and fine you. As I understand it, you have to allow a reasonable accommodation and the ones you cited don't sound unreasonable. The HOA does NOT have to pay for it or pay to maintain it and when the property is sold or the need passes the owner has to restore the property to the original conditions.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Helen

The more I read this, the more I am wondering if this whole thing is for wheelchair access or just because they want French Doors and a side walkway. I am leaning toward if wheelchair access can be done and/or is being done via the front door (as you say your association has several of), then that might just be accommodating enough.

The question is where does one draw the line in an association? An association by its design/nature, has some "control". Many have bought there for this control rather then allow all and anything to be done.

Sorry to sound hard, but maybe a bit of tough love is needed here.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MatthewW4 on 07/03/2013 9:05 AM
I am curious. How wide is this person's wheelchair?

Just as an FYI -

Wheelchairs come in various widths. Some are extra wide for people who require them and they won't easily fit through the most common-sized 30" doorways. You will end up either damaging the door frame or crushing your hands. Many electric wheelchairs are wider than non-electric models.

Our home was built with 36" wide doors to accommodate wheelchairs. Only the closets and the guest bathroom have standard-sized doors.

MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 07/03/2013 1:12 PM

John,

I assume that the French door is for the width. A 6-foot sliding door has only a 3-foot opening. A 6-foot French door will have a 6-foot opening. Whether it is a slider or a hung door, there will always be some sort of threshold to contend with.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By HeleneN on 07/03/2013 5:28 AM
A request has been submitted by a unit owner(also a board member)to allow replacement of their slider windows to their back patio with French doors to accommodate access for her wheel chair confined husband. Also, they are seeking permission to have a walkway installed from the back patio along the side of the house around the front to their driveway and the removal of a tree to accommodate the walkway.
In the pass the board has been quick to allow handicap ramps from the front door to the driveway and in some instances handicap residents have installed handicap ramps within the garage to a doorway connecting to the interior without any visibility from the outside.
This community of 55+ is made up of 52 free standing homes on lots that are the property of the unit owner. They all have attached garages and also one walkway from the driveway to the front door. This community is governed by a Condo assoc. with reasonable restrictions on landscaping and architecture. This particular house is on a corner lot with high visibility.
The board is being pressured into allowing this accommodation based on the unit owner saying it's a reasonable request under ADA and also that the VA will be paying for it.
This has become a "hot potato" with some unit owners opposed saying this isn't reasonable. The requesting unit owner says it's not feasible for them to widen their front doorway or doorway to the garage.
Another caveat is that the Assoc. is responsible for snow and ice removal from all walkways. Though our snow removal contractor has liability insurance the Assoc. does not carry insurance on unit owned property. In the case of a slip and fall claim 52 unit owners could be liable even though the owner is saying they will be responsible for snow and ice removal.
Interested in your opinions and perhaps some experience with this sort of a request.

I would be extremely careful if you are considering turning down this request. First check with an experienced HOA attorney plus read about the Fair Housing Act. Even if the attorney opines that you may denigh the request, a judge may not agree with that opinion.

HeleneN (Connecticut)
Posts: 84

Posted:

Thanks for all your comments and advice.

Approval of the French doors to replace the sliders was granted last September to allow access to the patio. Sliders with a 30" opening would not accommodate a wheel chair. This was not an issue for anyone as the doors were not visible from the street or neighbors on either side. Here we are 10 months later and the sliders have not been replaced.

I have also found out the current wheel chair has access through an internal door to the garage. However, the intent is to upgrade to a larger wheel chair that won't fit through any door except a French door to the back patio and that's why they need to have a walkway installed from their back patio around the house, across the front lawn to their driveway.

And they are also asking permission to raise their patio up to be level to the threshold of the French doors.

As James said 'best to let our attorney decide what's reasonable.'

I think JohnC got it right when he suggested that it looked as though they just wanted French doors and walkway.

Well, they expect the VA to pay for it all so why not go for it all!

Gosh, this is bringing out the worse in me!

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