Yard Art Violations

Per our CC&R's - Yard Art: No yard pieces or yard art, including but not limited to sculptures, statues, and other freestanding or attached works, whether for decoration or otherwise, more than 12 inches tall or 12 inches wide shall be permitted outside of the Buildings and within view from the street w/o prior written approval of the ACC.

My question: Does a metal grill (21 inches x 21 inches) attached to a fence gate considered yard art? And yes it is in view of the street.

ToddD - YES, the metal grill would fall under the category of yard art. Regardless as to whether it's good or bad art, the dimensions exceed 12 x 12. All is not lost!! The person with the grill can always apply for approval of the ACC. The cc&r is written extremely well by giving a parameter of what is acceptable and a process for approval of everything that does not comply. You live in a great community that would have the foresight to allow some modifications but a way to work around it. Rules are supposed to be reasonable, and so are the corrections to the a violation. If the grill was 13" x 13" I wouldn't worry about it because I believe it would unreasonable to take it down for an inch or two. If I was the owner of the grill, I'd take the piece down and seek approval before I got a violation letter.

ToddD,

I wouldn’t want to even utter these words, but according to your CC&R you have provided,this particular homeowner would be in violation.

I think thats BULL! I tell you what, if I ever received a letter stating I was in violation(for a BBQ Grill) I would flip out. The board who sent me the violation letter would be hearing an ear full.

I understand that rules & regulations, by-laws and CC&R are established to be followed, but for any board to classify a BBQ Grill as “yard art” tells me that they have nothing better to do!

That’s really humorous, I’ll be sure to share that with the other board members in my community.

“if” the board decides to fine this individual for “yard art”. I would suggest making a community wide notice notifying all resident of what is considered “yard art” and explain to them what will happen if they are found in violation.

That’s just my opinion though. I certainly wouldn’t send this persona a violation letter.

As stated many times before on this discussion forum. I can see this particular violation receiving some rather negative publicity about your community in the local news and daily newspaper.

If I were that homeowner, I would personally “sue the pants off the board” for fining me for having a BBQ Grill and classifying it as “yard art” COME ON, ARE YOU SERIOUS?

I hope to make a good decision before perusing such an idea.

Chuck W.

Why is it that everyone claims they will “sue the pants off the board” when they feel a covenant is unjust or they dissagree with it? The covenants are in place when you purchase the property and you are agreeing to follow them when you make your purchase. Why not just follow the rules by making an application for whatever it is you want to build or change?

An as for the phrase "“sue the pants off the board”, at best you will get legal permission to do what you were fined for, return of the fine, and legal expenses. How can that be “suing the pants off the board”? And remember, as a member of the HOA, you will be sharing the cost of the judgement against the HOA along with your neighbors and former friends.

Why is it that everyone claims they will “sue the pants off the board” when they feel a covenant is unjust or they dissagree with it? The covenants are in place when you purchase the property and you are agreeing to follow them when you make your purchase. Why not just follow the rules by making an application for whatever it is you want to build or change?

An as for the phrase "“sue the pants off the board”, at best you will get legal permission to do what you were fined for, return of the fine, and legal expenses. How can that be “suing the pants off the board”? And remember, as a member of the HOA, you will be sharing the cost of the judgement against the HOA along with your neighbors and former friends.

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RonaldW,

I can tell we aren’t going to see eye to eye on this one. I’m not disagreeing with you, in the fact that the CC&R, by-laws, rules and regulations all need to be enforce equally. What I disagree with you about is the fact that the board is having the soul discretion to determine, whether this is consider “yard art” and whether they should be receive a violation letter.

That is where I have the probably! You are correct, they did purchase into the community and yes they did agree to follow the CC&R, by-laws , rules and regulations of the community, but I don’t believe that they would ever agree to something like this (Grill as “yard art”) I just feel that it would be a bit absurd for a board to issue a violation letter to a homeowner for classifying a Grill as “yard art” PERIOD

Now because it’s secured to the fence, I would think this would could possible be a problem. Although, how long has is been that way? Is this his first season having it attached to his fence? What if he installed it several seasons ago and this is the first season he has heard that the board has ever said it was a violation.

He may have a case there.

Besides the fact that it is secured to the fence isn’t typical. The fact that it can be viewed from the road, doesn’t really “hold all that much water”
I know many homeowners that leave their gill in their garage and pull it out to cook and then let it cool down before putting it away, while it’s out (in the driveway) would this be considers “yard art”?

Personally, I would (as a board member of my community) talk to this homeowner first and foremost. I would find out the reason why he has chosen to affix his B grill to the fence (in view from the road). I would advice him that he has been found in violation of the CC&R (“yard art" classifications) and “dig a little deeper” give him adequate time to comply of else be subjected to a fine.

As far as “sue the pants off the board” Because more times then not, you will get results. I fully understand that when “if” I were to sue the board (volunteer board), I would be potentially suing myself and my neighbors, I get that!

If all I was going to get out of it was the opportunity to keep the grill where it was, that would be well worth it to me.

Chuck W.

Chuck, I don't believe it's a BBQ grill, I took it as a decorative or functional flat piece attached to the gate. Someone else took it as a sign.

In any case, generally the HOA acting through the ACC, ARB, or whatever it is called, has the right to approve or dissaprove exterior additions or modifications to properties and a homeowner agrees to this policy when they purchase the property. Examples might be painting the house or shutters a different color, cutting down mature trees, enlarging a driveway, and in this case, modifying the appearance of the gate.

If your request for a modification is denied, you usually have an appeal proceedure and/or the chance to have your request approved with changes.

BTW: In our association, a BBQ grill is considered a piece of equipment and much like lawn mowers, garbage containers, and such, must be "screened" from view.

JoeW1

I most certainly am. So essentially “if” I were to, ask the BOD for an approval and the grill was “ more than 12 inches tall or 12 inches wide shall be permitted outside of the Buildings and within view from the street w/o prior written approval of the ACC” I could have a grill and it could be attached to the fence?

Oh, I see how to play that game. In all seriousness though. “You can’t very well ask for permission of something you didn’t know was going to be wrong”

I don’t believe the definition of a “metal grill hanging off a gate”, would be classified as “yard art”

I think the majority of people would consider this to be an extremely creative idea, although it maybe a bit tacky to some and can find this to be a violation!

True?

I’m faced with similar situations in my community. The By-laws and CC&R all can be interpreted (in so many ways) however the violator wishes to comprehend them, not really specify one thing or another. (with the exception of a few)The majority of governing documents are written so they will apply to all situations not specifying one thing in particular.

You asked the question “Now, how is that unreasonable?” It wouldn’t be! “There's a method for seeking approval for anything that is outside the cc&r.” I agree with that statement, it would be extremely difficult (for many) to ignore this (as a violation) once the HO is notified as being in violation. But I feel that this violation is not intentional nor does it require the board to spend association money to inform this person of such.

Chuck W.

Well did he get written approval from the ACC? If so, they felt the fountain would be compatible with the neighborhood. The ACC may not feel that a wishing well (or pink flamingos) would be compatible. It's a committee of homeowners making the decision. I would be impossible to write a covenant identifying everything, that's why each proposed modification is examined by the ACC.

CharlesW1 - Yard Art in ToddD's community is broadly defined to encompass any modification that falls outside of a certain dimension and location. Therefore, you may not think the metal grate classifies, however it does. If you want to discuss the metal grill's worth as art and it's importance to modern design, that's debatable. Interesting how you refer to seeking approval for something outside of the cc&r "playing that game". It's following a procedure and actually can set new parameter that may benefit others. My suggestion to ToddD was to remove the metal grill and seek approval. The violation may not be intentional or a fine able offense if the owner complies. You are 100% incorrect that ToddD's violation or any other violation does not require the board to spend association money to inform. It also requires association money (a stamp or two, and a conversation, and 10 minute meeting perhaps) to remedy. Someone, or a group of someone's, took the time develop the cc&r, therefore, energy is required to enforce them. Enforcement of the cc&r's whenever necessary is one of the most important, out of many, responsibilities of a board.

Or seek approval from the ACC, ARB, or whatever it's called in the HOA.

I apologize to all that I may have offended, by referring to the “metal grill” as a BBQ grill. OOOPS!! I certainly wouldn’t have called that a grill, that is for sure not a grill,a decorative ordainment perhaps.

I’m sure it does look great but the fact is that the decorative element that is a violation, it is indeed an architectural improvement, which does require an approval in most HOA, POA, etc.

Sorry once again all.

Chuck W.

BradP - Only one poster MellisaP said, "Sorry, but I don't get why people ask such questions knowing the answer is going to be "No"" The rest of the posters seem to think the question worthy of response.

I saw the pic and thought it was absolutely beautiful and adds to the beauty of a wood fence. I would hate to live in an HOA that does not allow anyone to have a personality. It is such a small ornament and it shouldn't cause so much ruckus. Living in a Texas HOA there is a lot of iron work available. Texas stars, cowboys, horses, cactus, wagon wheels, mostly western motif and it is seen on fences, garages, houses and sheds. Luckily, so far, no one has gone overboard and usually have one or two pieces displayed. Some have windmills in various sizes and some ppl even have a whole wagon. No permission is required. I am glad I don't live in a copycat neighborhood even tho we are in an HOA.

Hi me again - again thanks for all the input :-)

Another Question: If this person did take down the iron scroll and instead placed it on his front porch, attached to the home by his door, would that still be considered yard art? Many homeowners have vases, furniture, sculptures, etc. on their porches. I agree with you all, I think it adds personality and value to the community. Nothing in our CC&Rs state porch issues, however, is the front porch consider part of the yard? Again, another "grey" issue. I am agreeable to letting it stand, but the other two board members are being "sticklers" and seem to have a bone to pick with this one particular homeowner.

Thanks again.

Instruct the resident to submit to the ARC with a photo and let it go through the proper channels. If the ARC disapproves, they should give reason why. The resident can then request hearing and present evidence of other 'art' in the community.

I doubt the front porch could be considered part of the yard. There may be other restrictions in the CC&Rs concerning attaching it to the house (it could be considered a "modification" much as adding or changing the color of shutters). If the homeowner wants to be a "butthead", he could put it on the porch and lean it against the wall or put it on a stand.

Is there a reason the person won't submit an application to the ACC? Perhaps the other board members are being "sticklers" because this homeowner is refusing to follow proceedures.

No, written permission is good forever. Can you imagine an ACC approving an addition to a residence and a following ACC demanding that it be removed?

No, the lot owner is not the problem. It's the Board. Board approved, but now the Board is trying to causes problems for this lot owner because they know the rules better than the Board and/or management company. Like I said before, I think it adds value, and the other two board members don't like being shown up and are causing problems. Nothing short of that. I was hopeing to find an alternative to the issue, rather than the Board letting out its frustrations. Obviously this is a new HOA, and the Board just does not have the experience or know how or energy to put into it. Frankly, I don't particular like their "dicktater" (spelled that way for a reason) attitude. I seem to be the only person of reason and knowledge, as they just like going in circles. Let's resolve the issue and not tortue our neighbors.

ToddD - Caveat Emptor. I know you want to be the nice guy and do what you feel is right. No doubt you are coming from a good place. However, IMO your cc&r is extremely well written. There is a parameter (12 x 12), there is a method for attempting to exceed the parameter by the owners filling out an application. If you are going to rubber stamp the modification, at the very least you MUST get the owners to submit a posthumous application and document what they have done just like everyone else is supposed to do. If owners are not willing to respect the application process, it may be an initial indicator they will not maintain their modification. However, not submitting an application is snubbing the process of which they chose to buy into. That is not acceptable.

RonaldW: to answer your question, yes, been there. No telling the lengths a Board/Committee will go to just to achieve their personal agenda--
even legal expense to Commu--and lining the lawyers' pockets in the process.

Life in a community is only as good or bad as those in power at any given time 'perceiving' the covenants as they choose to.