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SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Our annual association meeting was held Saturday. As I have stated in previous posts, I was running for a seat on the BOD. I got 4 votes out of 27. Oh well will try again next year.

During the meeting a discussion of the sanitary sewer ensued. There is a concern that new home builders will run into a major obstacle connecting to the sewer. The sewer line may not be where it shows on the association's sewer line map. This has happened to 2 home builders so far. One of the home builders (a board member at the time) was reimbursed a portion of the costs he incurred to bring the sewer line to his house. The 2nd home builder was offered a temporary solution of a number of above ground tanks that periodically need pumped at his expense of course. The discussion began by the president. He stated that in the bylaws it states that if the sewer line is not there, it is up to the homeowner to pay for all of the expenses related to bringing the line to the house and it then becomes the property of the Association except for a number of feet from the house. It doesn't matter if the closest line is a mile away. The Association is not paying to extend the line even if shows one on the sewer line map. Keep in mind the home builder has to also pay a $5,000 or $15,000 access fee depending on if the member is in good standing, not in good standing or a nonmember.

I spoke up and said that a home owner had been reimbursed a portion of his expenses to bring the line to his house and I asked if that courtesy would not be extended to others similarly situated. The President interrupted me and said that was a confidential matter that was related to the lawsuit that had been filed and settled against us. We did sign a confidentiality agreement when we settled the lawsuit but it had nothing to do with the reimbursement of this homeowners expenses and I stated so. I proceeded to speak and stated that the confidentiality agreement was to not disclose the terms of the settlement agreement to 3rd parties and that members at this meeting were not 3rd parties. He got very angry and kept telling others it can't be discussed. Others attending the meeting kept asking me questions about the reimbursement of the sewer line not about our lawsuit so I just kept talking while the President is basically having a temper tantrum and no one is listening to him. A previous board member spoke up and said the records have been sealed. I just laughed at that. The lawsuit is a public record. Anyone can go to the county court house and ask to see the file on _________ Corp. vs. __________. One has nothing to do with the other. And the confidentiality portion is for the terms of the settlement only (price.)

I am seeking some advice. Should I just let it go and chalk it up to the President misinterpreting our settlement agreement and being put on the spot about the improper reimbursement or should I send a letter along with a copy of the settlement agreement to all of the board? I'm a little concerned that the President will try something stupid like taking me to court for in his eyes breaking the confidentiality agreement.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
I'm not an attorney but as I understand it the confidentiality agreement can be part of the settlement of a lawsuit but that would apply to parties of the lawsuit i.e the Board and the person who sued them. It is not binding on a third party who happens upon the information, how ever they happened upon it. That is unless you were part of the original suit and under court seal.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
How exactly can a by-law take ownership of the owner-installed sewer line away? To me that would be a detail required in the covenants, not the by-laws. Otherwise the BoD can make changes at a whim.

"You must install sprinklers, but then they become property of the HOA."

"You must plant an apple tree, but then that tree and all the fruit is property of the HOA."

"You must build a fence, but then that fence becomes property of the HOA."

Those examples may sound silly but I would consider such a by-law the equivalent of a fee or assessment. You are paying money for the HOA to have something. That authority should not be in the by-laws.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
To give an example, I have sewer connections. The county has a line that runs behind my house. The portion that runs from my house to the county's line is property of me. Maintenance is my responsibility.

As for the confidentiality agreement, I guess it depends on the wording of the agreement but if it were me I'd tell everyone. Maybe some anonymous letters if you are concerned the board president may try to retaliate.
SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 06/17/2013 7:31 PM
I'm not an attorney but as I understand it the confidentiality agreement can be part of the settlement of a lawsuit but that would apply to parties of the lawsuit i.e the Board and the person who sued them. It is not binding on a third party who happens upon the information, how ever they happened upon it. That is unless you were part of the original suit and under court seal.

Glen I need to clarify. The Association sued me and my husband for an unrelated matter and we signed a confidential settlement agreement. The agreement is for the terms of the settlement only. The details of the lawsuit are not confidential and one can get the lawsuit records that were filed regarding the case at the courthouse. The records are not sealed. These are all public records.

The President is confusing the 2 issues. They are not related in any way. The point I was trying to make at the time was that the BOD needs to be fair with everyone. Since they reimbursed a board member for a portion of his expenses, they should reimburse others similarly situated. The President wants to keep it hush, hush because the person he reimbursed was a buddy. There are other instances where there is selective enforcement of the dues and fees.

SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KevinK7 on 06/18/2013 4:10 AM
How exactly can a by-law take ownership of the owner-installed sewer line away? To me that would be a detail required in the covenants, not the by-laws. Otherwise the BoD can make changes at a whim.

"You must install sprinklers, but then they become property of the HOA."

"You must plant an apple tree, but then that tree and all the fruit is property of the HOA."

"You must build a fence, but then that fence becomes property of the HOA."

Those examples may sound silly but I would consider such a by-law the equivalent of a fee or assessment. You are paying money for the HOA to have something. That authority should not be in the by-laws.

I believe you and I are in a development where the covenants have expired per our state laws. Florida's MRTA and Iowa's 21 year time-limit to extend the CC&R's. So what my association has left are the common elements of the sanitary sewer and 2 ponds to maintain. They are a corporation organized under the nonprofit code of Iowa. So the Association's documents only include the bylaws and rules and regulations. The bylaws contain all of the particulars of dues, assessments, membership requirements, BOD numbers, officers, etc. The rules state the price of the sanitary sewer hook-up and that one must hire a licensed plumber to install the hook-up, what can be flushed down the toilet, inspections, things like that.

I understand how difficult this must be for the BOD. They are faced with some pretty tough challenges, ambiguous bylaws, no CC&R's to back them up, an outdated sewer system that is not in compliance with current EPA regulations and most of all not much money. Not to mention the sewer line map is incorrect which creates a nightmare for the new homebuilder. Instead of making thoughtful and careful decisions they tend to fly by the seat of their pants. In my opinion the President is inept and a poor leader. I see some positive changes in the rest of the board. He just needs to go.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
If it were me I would work to get a simple set of covenants and restrictions regarding the maintenance of the sewer approved and filed to prevent such mismanagement. I know you have mentioned your HOA situations before and to me this by-law still sounds bad. It would be like Microsoft saying that once I install Windows they own my computer.

I say spread the information about the lawsuit except for the confidentiality part and let them sue you. You can easily respond with public records.
SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KevinK7 on 06/18/2013 6:48 AM
If it were me I would work to get a simple set of covenants and restrictions regarding the maintenance of the sewer approved and filed to prevent such mismanagement. I know you have mentioned your HOA situations before and to me this by-law still sounds bad. It would be like Microsoft saying that once I install Windows they own my computer.

I say spread the information about the lawsuit except for the confidentiality part and let them sue you. You can easily respond with public records.

Kevin,

Here is the exact wording in the bylaws and rules:

Bylaws:
...all other associated expenses in connection with sewer connections shall be born by the property owner requesting the sewer connection in accordance with the current "Rules and Regulations." ...

Rules and Regulations:

In the event that there is no sewer line available adjacent to the lot where the improvement is being made, it will be the responsibility of the lot owner to install, at his expense, an appropriate sewer line from the lot to the point where an existing sewer line is available. This line shall be installed according to the specifications set forth by the Board of Directors, as follows:...

Following the installation of the sewer line from the lot line to the point of connection to the existing line, it shall become the property of __________, and all future connections to said sewer line shall be under the control of the Board of Directors. An "As Built" drawing will be provided to the Board of Directors for future reference.

Any sewer service line located on a private lot shall be the responsibility of the property owner. The cost of maintenance of this line shall be borne by the property owner....

The main problem is that the developer went bankrupt and many of the sewer lines that were supposed to be installed never were. The sewer line map indicates that there are lines where none exist. This can be a very expensive endeavor for the new home builder. It could run into thousands of dollars not to mention the association's access fees.

To be sure, it is a challenge for the BOD to be fair yet they don't have the financial resources to finish the installation of the sewer lines. And some of the old ones have collapsed. My point is if you pay for one homebuilder's installation than you should pay for someone else's. At Saturday's meeting, the board said they are not going to pay for the installation. That's when the disagreement ensued. The President doesn't want anyone to know that they made an exception and paid for it for a board member.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Sounds like something more complicated is going on here. More complicated than can be answered in a few internet posts. Typically if private property wants to be developed, the expense is paid for by the owner/builder. Doesn't matter what it costs. It's their land. If it were my HOA and the other lots never got developed, I wouldn't care. I know that someday they will be developed when it became profitable to do so.

I wouldn't want my HOA paying to build someone a house no matter what.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
I thought I would comment on this thread, but first, Hello again all. I was active on this forum a few years ago until my wife became ill and I resigned from our HOA board in order to take care of her. Recently I was looking for some old info here (found it) and decided to look through a few of the current conversations while I was at it.

As to the topic under discussion, I have to agree with the general rule as posted by Sharon. If a property owner wants to bring the sewer line to his property, then he would be responsible for the costs of installing the line from the nearest point. If he was building on a property that was adjacent to a property that already had sewer service, then his costs would be relatively minimal. Then the next guy that builds on the property adjacent to his will only have to run from the line that the first guy installed, and again his costs would be fairly small. In that fashion the properties would be developed from the existing sewer out, and every property owner would share in the expense.

But if I bought a property that is a long distance from any current sewer line and I didn't want to wait for others to bring it out to me, then I would have to take on the entire expense of running the line. Granted that would mean that everyone who comes along later and builds on the properties in between would be spared the extra expense, but that is a burden that I would have to take on by purchasing the property that is so far out and not being willing to wait. This is one of the reasons that developers usually run the sewer (and water, electrical, etc) lines for the entire development, and then charge all property owners a share of that cost when they sell the property. It's actually kind of interesting that individual properties in Sharon's area where sold at all before the developer finished with these basics.

As to the ownership of the sewer line passing to the HOA, I don't really see that as the HOA taking ownership away from me so much as me forcing it on them. Why would I want to continue to own the sewer line that isn't on my property, and be responsible for it's maintenance? In addition, by ownership passing to the HOA, they can now allow those subsequent property owners to hook into the line without having to run their own parallel line to wherever the HOA owned line would be be if they hadn't taken ownership of "my" line.

Note that this does not address the issue of the BOD pres reimbursing his buddy from HOA funds. That one just doesn't sound right to me. How could the pres have done that without the approval of the rest of the BOD? Was the decision recorded in the minutes of a BOD meeting?
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I don't see an issue with the HOA taking control of the sewer line, being that they are in control of the sewer, but I was under the impression that they would take possession of the entire connection. As in my area, I own up until the county line. I'd imagine that the owner would retain the line up until the property line.

I was also thinking that since there are no covenants there is no binding agreement between parties, correct? Each party would then be free to negotiate with the HOA, so being reimbursed while unethical may not have been technically wrong, unless disputed in court?
SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KevinK7 on 06/18/2013 11:01 AM

I was also thinking that since there are no covenants there is no binding agreement between parties, correct? Each party would then be free to negotiate with the HOA, so being reimbursed while unethical may not have been technically wrong, unless disputed in court?

Hmm interesting point. Does that mean that a new member can negotiate a different price than what is written in the bylaws and rules?

Also I would think that paying a $5,000 or $15,000 access fee would require that the access is actually there and if it is not, there should be an adjustment of that access price.

To be clear, I am not complaining about the board member being reimbursed but that should apply to all in the same situation.

SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DwightT on 06/18/2013 8:47 AM

Note that this does not address the issue of the BOD pres reimbursing his buddy from HOA funds. That one just doesn't sound right to me. How could the pres have done that without the approval of the rest of the BOD? Was the decision recorded in the minutes of a BOD meeting?

Yes, it was paid out of HOA funds and yes it was documented in board meeting minutes but the meeting was held with no quorum. Only 3 members were present. A quorum is 5. It was discussed at an annual meeting very briefly and we were all apparently asleep at the wheel because no one asked any questions. On principle, I don't have a problem with it because the guy paid a $5,000 access fee and the access was not there. He was going by what the sewer line map showed. So when the plumber began digging where he was supposed to, no line was there. This cost him extra time and money. My issue is that the board will not reimburse anyone else similarly situated and will do nothing else to try to fix the problem. It's basically too bad so sad! We aren't going to do anything about it.

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
From what you have said then I'm starting to think that this may have been a reasonable compromise. When the guy paid his access fee, the HOA essentially certified to him that the access was there so he expected to be able to hook up with no problem. When it then turned out that the access wasn't there, he incurred extra unexpected costs. Even though the HOA was operating on bad info from the developer, it would be reasonable for the HOA to reimburse him at least part of those extra costs.

Going forward the HOA is probably aware that the sewer map is unreliable, so any new builders can be informed in advance that they could wind up with extra costs in order to get hooked up, and that they are on their own for those extra costs.
SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DwightT on 06/18/2013 3:50 PM
From what you have said then I'm starting to think that this may have been a reasonable compromise. When the guy paid his access fee, the HOA essentially certified to him that the access was there so he expected to be able to hook up with no problem. When it then turned out that the access wasn't there, he incurred extra unexpected costs. Even though the HOA was operating on bad info from the developer, it would be reasonable for the HOA to reimburse him at least part of those extra costs.

Going forward the HOA is probably aware that the sewer map is unreliable, so any new builders can be informed in advance that they could wind up with extra costs in order to get hooked up, and that they are on their own for those extra costs.

Thanks for your comments but I still think that asking someone to pay $5,000 for sewer access ($15,000 for nonmembers)is excessive.
AnnH4 (Florida)
Posts: 53
Posted:
I might be very wrong, but once the litigation is closed, isn't it going to be in your Association's records anyway? If so then any member could review those records and find the details of the lawsuit, the court's records, the judgment, etc?
SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnnH4 on 06/18/2013 9:31 PM
I might be very wrong, but once the litigation is closed, isn't it going to be in your Association's records anyway? If so then any member could review those records and find the details of the lawsuit, the court's records, the judgment, etc?

You are absolutely right but the President has those records under lock and key. LOL The President doesn't want it known that he and another board member were quite vicious and made decisions without proper protocol. Not to mention the fact that the litigation cost the Association thousands of dollars in legal fees. He doesn't want that known either so IMO they used some interesting accounting to cover it up. They only listed legal bills on the financial report once a year and the litigation lasted over 3 years. So unless members are really on top of things they don't pay that much attention. They don't add up the complete costs over the 3 year time period.

I'm growing quite weary of being the watchdog over the board. I've done about all I can or am willing to spend anymore time on. What will be will be. Life is just too short and I have more urgent issues to occupy my time with.

Thanks folks for all your input. - Sharon
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Sharon

Did you or did you not agree to a confidential settlement?
SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 06/19/2013 6:20 PM
Sharon

Did you or did you not agree to a confidential settlement?

Yes, to third parties and the price only not the details of the litigation.

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