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WayneF2 (Illinois)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Our Covenants clearly state a limit of 2 pets. And yet 2 neighbors own 3 dogs each.

We did not have a HOA in our small community of ~35 homes until Aug 2011 -- common areas etc were still being managed by the developer. Then we hit the magic 66% (or whatever) ownership number and poof the HOA came into being. The developer never did anything about this issue and the Board has not taken specific action as yet, but has been discussing it for a while.

We cannot "grandfather" these violators in because the rule has never changed. It has always been 2, and they have always been in violation. We could perhaps grant an "exemption" or something and say they cannot replace a dog if one dies, but this does not satisfy everyone because it seems to undermine the ability of the Board to enforce CC&R -- others may demand/expect exemptions on their issues as well.

And then what happens when someone does move in and they have 3 (or more) pets? Surely this is a common issue in HOAs.

How would/does your Board/HOA deal with this type of CC&R violation?
AnnH4 (Florida)
Posts: 53
Posted:
The HOA is obligated to enforce the deed restrictions.

Just make sure these are not service animals (we have had owners pull that card when trying to keep a breed that is forbidden per our deed restrictions). The bottom line is that the owners should have read and understood the deed restrictions at the time of purchase. You are correct in that if the HOA decides to not enforce the restriction for some owners then they will not be able to enforce the same restriction for others. To do so is called "selective enforcement" and it can get the HOA into a litigious situation. If the HOA opts to not enforce the restriction at all, what might happen if someone moves in with 7,8,or 9 dogs? Is that a problem or would everyone be okay with living next door to "the dog people"?

Other than enforcement, the other option is to try to get the restrictions amended to allow for 3 pets per lot.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
I am always torn on this:

If the contract clearly states X, and you or the neighbors are doing Y, then either change the contract legally, or stop doing Y.

However, I always kind of wonder: What harm is actually being done when Y is happening? Is there damage? Can people tell somehow? If I have three indoor cats in my home, and you have two, what is the physical difference people can see/tell when they look at our two homes from the street?

I don't know what the covenants say, the OP didn't copy them. They "clearly" state no more than two pets. I would wonder, do they define pets? Is a goldfish a pet? A parakeet? a horse? Could I legally keep two Clydesdale's as pets, and yet, the neighbor next door is banned from keeping three hermit crabs? Why is the quantity so darn important here, and not the type of animal, size, mass, etc.? How is it that quantity is so damning, versus any other characteristic?

AnnH4 (Florida)
Posts: 53
Posted:
It is kind of a stinky situation. Nobody wants to make someone else feel harassed over their pets in their own home. Our deed restrictions specify domestic animals and explicitly forbid live stock (which would be the Clydesdales). I also think that a deed restriction is only good if it can be monitored and enforced. As you have pointed out, somebody could keep 3 indoor cats, 2 hamsters in cages, and a dog----and nobody enforcing the deed restrictions would know about it. On the other hand, somebody with 8 dogs is going to get noticed.

Since the OP lives in such a small community, amending the deed restrictions to 3 with the required majority vote might be a better option for this community just to keep the current homeowners happy? Unless this is a condo situation and then I could see why the community might desire a tighter control on the number of pets.
WayneF2 (Illinois)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Funny you should say "just amend things to make it 3." We tried this first.

We had a HOA-wide vote on this issue (and a few other changes, most failed to pass) and the proposition to increase the pet limit to 3 "dogs or cats" was rejected. Everyone knows about the issue but more than half the HOA wanted to keep it at 2.

Also funny how someone asked about the specific wording in the Covenant. I may post the details but essentially anyone with more than 2 pets of any kind is currently in violation -- yes, this includes fish or hamsters -- and I've never known someone with a fish tank that had 2 or fewer fish in it unless it was a kid's goldfish or betta. Our city rules prohibit livestock so no worry about large horses but I'm less sure about pot-bellied pigs.

People are concerned that someone driving through our neighborhood (perhaps looking to buy a house here) will see the 3 dogs and assume this neighborhood allows 3 dogs, which is incorrect. Or they will see 3 dogs and notice our Covenants say 2, and decide that they can also ignore rules. So taking no action is not an option. But numerous homeowners have said that we should not force them to get rid of 1 and I'd agree in principle, though agree it complicates the life of the Board and makes other enforcements more difficult.

A chief concern about bumping the limit to 3 is that someone will decide to get 3 Great Danes or 3 Pitbulls etc. Two would already be "a lot" for certain breeds on some of our lots (most are under an acre, some are 4+ acres). We did discuss the possibility of "3 animals with a total weight of 150lbs or less, or 2 animals of whatever weight" and decided that was something that may pass muster in a hotel or a condo but no one in the HOA Board wants to be responsible for going out and weighing people's animals.

If this was simpler (e.g. a fence in the front yard, which is also prohibited) then we could just "force" the homeowner to fix the issue. But it is much harder to force someone to get rid of a pet even if we are "right" legally.

As a result of the recent vote on this topic, the Board is inspired to take some action but unsure how to proceed. Our community also does not currently have a fine schedule so that will be discussed at the annual HOA meeting in August but it seems unreasonable to fine these neighbors $25 or $50 a month (or whatever) so long as they are in violation of the rule -- their dogs are Yorkies under 4y/o so they will probably be around for another 8-10 yrs.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Yoi say these people cannot be grandfathered in. Did the developer know about these pets? If so and they did nothing, since being the almighty developer, their failure to act could be considered implied consent. I say let these people be. What are the odds of 3 great danes occupying a lot? And at 1-4 acres of land I can hardly see why the restriction should even exist. I have seen more pets live comfortably on 1/4 acre lots and not bother a single soul while I have seen single pets run amok.
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnnH4 on 06/15/2013 3:37 PM
The HOA is obligated to enforce the deed restrictions.

You are correct in that if the HOA decides to not enforce the restriction for some owners then they will not be able to enforce the same restriction for others. To do so is called "selective enforcement" and it can get the HOA into a litigious situation.

Very few CC&R's impose an enforcement duty to on the association. The Business Judgment Rule gives the BOD the right to choose which battles they will wage and which they will walk away from.

Most CC&R's also have a provision that prevents a failure to enforce a provision to be interpretted as a waiver. The association cannot usually amend the CC&R's without approval of the owners, so the restriction remains in effect. Most CC&R's also have a provision that allows any member to enforce the restrictions through civil actions, so even if the board turns a blind eye to a violation an aggrieved member may act.

"Selective enforcement" or "selective prosecution" is a legally recognized defense, however the mere fact that some are prosecuted while others are not is not enough to sustain it. There must be an element of personal animosity motivating the prosecution.
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KevinK7 on 06/15/2013 6:12 PM
Yoi say these people cannot be grandfathered in. Did the developer know about these pets? If so and they did nothing, since being the almighty developer, their failure to act could be considered implied consent.

This is precisely the argument I would make if I was the guy with too many dogs. The developer/declarant sold me the home and knew I had 3 dogs. He made no objection. Therefore, the developer constructively waived the provisions of his very own restrictions.

The developer and the homeowners were parties directly involved in the sale of the home. The association was not a party to the sale. The parties to the sale constructively amended the terms by allowing 3 dogs instead of two. The developer himself put his own restrictions at risk by recording restrictions against more than two dogs and then allowing someone to move in with three. The developer created an ambiguity by recording a restriction that he himself did not enforce.

MichaelO4 (Montana)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Our CC&Rs state:

"The Association, Declarant, or any Owner shall have the option and right to enforce, by
a proceeding at law or in equity, all restrictions, covenants, reservations, and charges now or
hereafter imposed by the provisions of this Declaration. The method of enforcement may
include proceedings to enjoin the violation, to recover damages, or both. Failure of the
Association, the Declarant, or by any Owner to enforce any such provision shall in no
event be deemed a waiver of the right to do so thereafter."

Therefore, unless a health and safety issue is involved, our Board acting in its
official capacity is loathe to pursue enforcement of protective covenants. As noted
in the CC&Rs, "any Owner [including a Board member acting on his own behalf)
shall have the option and right to enforce." I suggest that,
unless there's language in your CC&Rs or Bylaws that the Board has a "duty to enforce",
let whichever Owner or Owners, acting alone or collectively, pursue the issue in court
at their expense if they wish...an attorney can advise them, also at their expense.

Or the Board can consult with an attorney at Association expense. Hopefully, you have
budgeted and set aside funds in your Operating Budget or Reserve Fund to cover legal
costs. If not, I recommend that you do so when you prepare next year's budget.
WayneF2 (Illinois)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MatthewW4 on 06/15/2013 7:09 PM
Posted By KevinK7 on 06/15/2013 6:12 PM
Yoi say these people cannot be grandfathered in. Did the developer know about these pets? If so and they did nothing, since being the almighty developer, their failure to act could be considered implied consent.


This is precisely the argument I would make if I was the guy with too many dogs. The developer/declarant sold me the home and knew I had 3 dogs. He made no objection. Therefore, the developer constructively waived the provisions of his very own restrictions.

The developer and the homeowners were parties directly involved in the sale of the home. The association was not a party to the sale. The parties to the sale constructively amended the terms by allowing 3 dogs instead of two. The developer himself put his own restrictions at risk by recording restrictions against more than two dogs and then allowing someone to move in with three. The developer created an ambiguity by recording a restriction that he himself did not enforce.


These people were not the first owners of that home. They have never had a direct relationship with the builder as the original homeowners did.

Also, these people moved in with zero dogs. Then bought 1. Then went back and bought 2 more a year later. So this is not a situation where you could have somehow stopped them prior to the purchase of their home.

It is true the developer has done little to nothing to enforce Covenants prior to the establishment of the HOA, as far as I am aware.
WayneF2 (Illinois)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelO4 on 06/15/2013 7:39 PM

Or the Board can consult with an attorney at Association expense. Hopefully, you have
budgeted and set aside funds in your Operating Budget or Reserve Fund to cover legal
costs. If not, I recommend that you do so when you prepare next year's budget.

Our HOA board certainly has funds set aside for legal expenses. But it seems a poor use of those funds (to me) to spend substantial portions of those funds pursuing a neighbor who has broken this specific Covenant.

I think the Board is mostly concerned about "by not 'fully' enforcing this violation, how much of our ability to enforce future violations of other Covenants is compromised?"

I will check the language of the Covenants and Bylaws to see what actions are REQUIRED of the board vs merely actions AVAILABLE to act on if the board so chooses to act at this time. That is a good point.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WayneF2 on 06/15/2013 8:09 PM
Posted By MichaelO4 on 06/15/2013 7:39 PM

Or the Board can consult with an attorney at Association expense. Hopefully, you have
budgeted and set aside funds in your Operating Budget or Reserve Fund to cover legal
costs. If not, I recommend that you do so when you prepare next year's budget.


Our HOA board certainly has funds set aside for legal expenses. But it seems a poor use of those funds (to me) to spend substantial portions of those funds pursuing a neighbor who has broken this specific Covenant.

I think the Board is mostly concerned about "by not 'fully' enforcing this violation, how much of our ability to enforce future violations of other Covenants is compromised?"

I will check the language of the Covenants and Bylaws to see what actions are REQUIRED of the board vs merely actions AVAILABLE to act on if the board so chooses to act at this time. That is a good point.

What is the exact wording of the covenant? For instance, in the example posted above it says the board had the "option" to enforce the rules. It could be argued that the board has no requirement to enforce, meaning that the HOA could pick and choose their battles.

I would also think that it does not matter if this person was the 1st or 50th homeowner. If they purchased when the developer was in control, and had the dogs prior to turnover, then it may make enforcement now difficult.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WayneF2 on 06/15/2013 2:30 PM
We did not have a HOA in our small community of ~35 homes until Aug 2011 -- common areas etc were still being managed by the developer. Then we hit the magic 66% (or whatever) ownership number and poof the HOA came into being.

Are you absolutely sure about this? Read your documents.

In most situations that I am aware of, the HOA exists from the moment the first unit is sold. It does not "come into being" at some later time when control is turned over to the homeowners. This is because the covenants (CCRs or Declaration) are really deed restrictions and are filed prior to the first home being sold. Thus, those restrictions apply to the first buyer and to every buyer from that point on.

The association existed when the first home was sold. The only difference is that the association was controlled by the developer until a certain percentage of home had been sold, at which time control was turned over to the homeowners.

Read your documents. It should all be in there, including when and how control of the association by the developer ends and control by the homeowners begins.
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WayneF2 on 06/15/2013 8:02 PM
Posted By MatthewW4 on 06/15/2013 7:09 PM
Posted By KevinK7 on 06/15/2013 6:12 PM
Yoi say these people cannot be grandfathered in. Did the developer know about these pets? If so and they did nothing, since being the almighty developer, their failure to act could be considered implied consent.


This is precisely the argument I would make if I was the guy with too many dogs. The developer/declarant sold me the home and knew I had 3 dogs. He made no objection. Therefore, the developer constructively waived the provisions of his very own restrictions.

The developer and the homeowners were parties directly involved in the sale of the home. The association was not a party to the sale. The parties to the sale constructively amended the terms by allowing 3 dogs instead of two. The developer himself put his own restrictions at risk by recording restrictions against more than two dogs and then allowing someone to move in with three. The developer created an ambiguity by recording a restriction that he himself did not enforce.



These people were not the first owners of that home. They have never had a direct relationship with the builder as the original homeowners did.

Also, these people moved in with zero dogs. Then bought 1. Then went back and bought 2 more a year later. So this is not a situation where you could have somehow stopped them prior to the purchase of their home.

It is true the developer has done little to nothing to enforce Covenants prior to the establishment of the HOA, as far as I am aware.

This is a sticky problem, but I think you should enforce the two pet clause. You probably won't be able to get any help from the city. The city may have different limits, typically 3 dogs and/or three cats.

In most cases, three large dogs is too much for a condo. The line that Brian was taking was silly. Perhaps you can say what harm does one more dog/cat make, can easily be two or three or four.

California law requires that condos allow at least one pet so allowing two is generous. I don't know about the laws in Illinois. I find Kevin's argument hard to prove since it would not probably be in writing that the developer knew the person had three dogs and generally, the developer isn't at liberty to re-write the CC&R for one particular person as amendments usually require petitioning the legislature (at least in California).

Our former condo pet regulations, there was a limit on the kinds of pets (dogs, cats, fish and birds). I'm sure something similar is the case with Brian's condo complex also in California. Livestock usually come under city/county regulations. A condo complex cannot do things that are contrary to the city/county/state law.

In our case, our neighbors had eight rabbits and two cats. Two of the rabbits and the two cats were added during the second year of their condo ownership. One reason you have to consider the limits is the damage. The rabbits were already damaging the shared walls after two years. After 10 it would be hard to imagine. This couple is likely at the beginning stages of animal hoarding. There is no real good reason for having eight rabbits, particularly if none of their are trained and they are already damaging property. The couple was involved with various rescue organizations and yet violating the practices of (at least three) those organizations. At this time, I believe they are no longer members of those three rescues, but I'm sure they have joined others if they haven't started their own rescue.

The argument made by that couple is that the animals were indoors and didn't bother anyone. I could hear the rabbits gnawing on the walls at night. As a volunteer, I've walked through some pretty scary homes where the animal hoarder was finally cited or evicted. The eviction took years. Further, many cities do not have legal limits on certain animals for single-family residences so if you don't enforce the two-pet limit and even the kind of pets, you could have a similar situation. According to city ordinances, there was no limit to the number of rabbits our neighbors could have.

There is an optimal number for animals and space. A yard that can look nice with two dogs might not look as well with four. The same holds true with shared common areas.

If you give an exception, then who gets exceptions and who are denied? Imagine the worst case scenario of three dogs per unit and the kind of chaos that would entail. Typically, three dog households are a bit harder to manage and keep quiet than two or four.

I don't know how many units you have, but some day, some time, you will likely have to deal with a hoarder. If it is an animal hoarder, then, an ounce of prevention...

In this case, the members obviously knew what the limit was, or should have. Ignorance isn't a valid defense. You can't grandfather in and there is not real reason to grant an exception without putting yourself in line to grant exceptions for everyone who so requests. Your membership had decided that two is a good limit.

In this case, fines should accrue daily and not monthly. I say hold a hearing. Make sure you complete all the elements required by your CC&R and state for the hearing. Should the person not conform, then levy a fine. If the member won't pay the fine, then the case would likely not require a lawyer for the HOA since it should only end up in small claims court.

In some cases, if the person/member is not in good standing, the member cannot vote or run for office. There's some wisdom in that. If that is not the case, then I would look into it.

Act quickly because in some states if a problem has been widely known, but not acted upon for a certain amount of time, then you relinquish the ability to prosecute.

For the record, I own two medium-sized dogs and have owned four dogs in the past, but always in a place where it was acceptable by city ordinances. I used to volunteer for a rescue organization and volunteer for the local humane society. I did a story and followed the trial of an animal hoarder for a class project during my master's program.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
As there is a transition going on you might could let this one owner slide. How you ask?

Send out a nice/polite/we love you all letter to all owners informing them that the Declarant let some things slide that are against the Bylaws and the BOD will be enforcing the Bylaws as written. Say you will be looking at/discussing/evaluating each and every violation to decide on a course of action.

Maybe the action is to write the offenders a nice letter informing of the violation. Do not threaten. Then treat it with benign neglect. If questioned by the dog owners have someone on the BOD confidentially tell them the letter is all the BOD intends to actively do so you suggest they drop the issue. Be discrete such as in plausible deniability.

When asked about the 3 dogs by other owners say we are aware of the problem and we are working on the issue. Then retort, what do you want us to do? Take the people to court and force them to get rid of one? Would you care to decide which one? Have a heart. Finally if pushed into a corner inform them any owner can take legal action so tell them to have at it.

If someone tries the defense that so and so has 3 dogs then so can they. Reply it is against the Bylaws and we are working on a plan of action concerning so and so. For all our sakes, please do make us take action against you also.

I love benign neglect approach.........LOL
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
JM

Cat tastes like rabbit. Maybe they were raising their supper. Cat, the other white meat.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
1) I must have missed something about this being a condo. All I saw from the OP was HOA. Is this a condo situation, a group of townhomes, shared walls, etc.? Or an HOA of single family homes, set on lots/acres? Per the covenants, it doesn't matter, but for my imagination, I am curious. I live on a house with nearly 3 acres, as do all my HOA neighbors, and I suspect our frame of reference would be very different if we lived with shared walls in tiny apartments.

2) In many ways, I think the horror stories out there adds credence to my point, and a point I typically try to make across many many regulations: Regulate the behavior, not some arbitrary point. So this horror story tenant had 8 rabbits. What was the problem with the number 8, versus 2, 5, or 3? Nothing. The problem was the behavior of the rabbits (chewing/gnawing). Another hoa member is a hoarder, and has ten cats. What's the problem, if all the cats are inside, the house is clean, litter boxes emptied daily, they are all fixed/spayed, etc.? Nothing. Does it matter, really matter, that the home next to you has one cat, or two or five, if it smells like an ammonia factory explosion? Is it acceptable that the house smells like 90 day old urine, if it's only from one pet?

Lazy people regulate poorly. In this case, instead of setting out the behaviors they wanted to stop, they simply chose some arbitrary number without regard for logic or thought. They chose TWO. Two is a good number.

And thus, two very destructive dogs are allowed, because, well, TWO. However, three very quiet guinea pigs are totally verbotten, because... THREE. Three is worse than two, any idiot can see that. One cat that sprays the walls, digs in flower beds, and howls all night long is fine, because one is less than two, and two is a good number. Get another, make a pair, because TWO is still a fine number, no matter their behavior.

Just don't get three, of any kind.
WayneF2 (Illinois)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 06/17/2013 7:26 AM
1) I must have missed something about this being a condo. All I saw from the OP was HOA. Is this a condo situation, a group of townhomes, shared walls, etc.? Or an HOA of single family homes, set on lots/acres? Per the covenants, it doesn't matter, but for my imagination, I am curious. I live on a house with nearly 3 acres, as do all my HOA neighbors, and I suspect our frame of reference would be very different if we lived with shared walls in tiny apartments.

Unsure where the idea we might be a condo is coming from other than (perhaps) a feeling that pet limits are only useful (or should only be used?) in condo situations, and everyone else should be free to do as they wish.

I stated in the OP that we have ~35 homes and then in my first reply I said that "most are under an acre, some are 4+ acres."

These are all single family homes set on lots ranging from half an acre (about half of the homes?) on up to 4 acres (mostly woods/wild).
WayneF2 (Illinois)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BruceF1 on 06/16/2013 4:03 AM
Posted By WayneF2 on 06/15/2013 2:30 PM
We did not have a HOA in our small community of ~35 homes until Aug 2011 -- common areas etc were still being managed by the developer. Then we hit the magic 66% (or whatever) ownership number and poof the HOA came into being.

Are you absolutely sure about this? Read your documents.

In most situations that I am aware of, the HOA exists from the moment the first unit is sold.

You are correct. The HOA existed since the time the Covenants were established but it was builder-controlled. The builder never wrote or established HOA Bylaws which was the very first act of the homeowner-controlled HOA (right after voting in the board) so I assumed that we didn't really have a HOA until then.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Wayne

I would disagree with any household pet limitation for private, standalone homes, each on their own lot. I would limit it to household pets so as to stop somebody from having farm animals. I also would enforce any local leash laws. If no local leash laws I would implement such for the association.

WayneF2 (Illinois)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 06/17/2013 8:52 AM

I would disagree with any household pet limitation for private, standalone homes, each on their own lot. I would limit it to household pets so as to stop somebody from having farm animals. I also would enforce any local leash laws. If no local leash laws I would implement such for the association.

While I may agree with some of that philosophically, for practical reasons I cannot ignore the fact that our HOA voted AGAINST changing these Covenants when it came up in a recent HOA-wide ballot.

We recorded votes as follows:
16 keep original covenants
13 change covenants and
-6 voted option 1 (keep dog/cat limit at 2, no limit on fish, limit of 5 other common household pets kept exclusively indoors and not a nuisance)
-7 voted option 2 (dog/cat limit increase to 3)

Original Text: No animals, livestock, or poultry of any kind shall be raised, bred or kept on any Lot, except that no more than two (2) dogs, cats, or other common household pets may be kept provided that they are not kept, bred, or maintained for any commercial purpose. Neither permanent nor temporary outside dog pens shall be constructed, placed or used on any Lot within XX Subdivision.

Option 1: Pet restriction shall comply with the Village of X ordinances. No animals or pets shall be permanently housed or kept outside the dwelling on any lot. All animals must be kept within a permanently fenced yard or leashed in the back yard. For the purposes of this Covenant, invisible fencing shall be considered permanent fencing and must be clearly marked as such. No animals, livestock, or poultry of any kind shall be raised, bred, or kept on any lot, except that no more than a total of 2 dogs or cats or a combination thereof provided that they are not kept, bred, or maintained for any commercial purposes. In addition, there shall be no limit on fish with a limit of 5 other common household pets, provided such pets are kept exclusively indoors and are not a nuisance. Neither permanent nor temporary outside dog pens shall be constructed, placed, or used on any lot within XX Subdivision.

Option 2: (same as above except underlined text changed) ...except that no more than a total of 3 dogs or cats or a combination thereof provided that they are not kept...
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Oh, I love that one (had the exact same lazy boilerplate section at a former HOA).

Original Text: No animals, livestock, or poultry of any kind shall be raised, bred or kept on any Lot, except that no more than two (2) dogs, cats, or other common household pets may be kept provided that they are not kept, bred, or maintained for any commercial purpose. Neither permanent nor temporary outside dog pens shall be constructed, placed or used on any Lot within XX Subdivision.

I always ask, when I see this, "What do you do about children?" Because last time I checked my biology, Humans were animals.

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Class: Mammalia
Subclass: Theria
Infraclass: Eutheria
Order: Primates
Suborder: Anthropoidea
Superfamily: Hominoidea
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: sapiens

Again, lazy people make bad regulations.
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 06/17/2013 8:52 AM
Wayne

I would disagree with any household pet limitation for private, standalone homes, each on their own lot. I would limit it to household pets so as to stop somebody from having farm animals. I also would enforce any local leash laws. If no local leash laws I would implement such for the association.


Many cities have household pet limitations on private, single-family homes. In Pasadena, CA the limit on cats and dogs is four. In Los Angeles, the limit is three for either cats or dogs with no limits on rabbits. In Torrance there is a limit on the number of rabbits.

If you choose not to enforce, you will likely end up with people who like Brian see no problem with having triple to quadruple the limit. That might make your HOA a haven for animal hoarders or people running rescue operations.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Darn right. I see absolutely no problem if, as an owner of a single family home on 4 acres of land, that I own 3 goldfish, EXCEPT, that I signed a contract stating I would only own two.

Breaking the contract is wrong, and I don't support people who do that.

Working to correct a crappy rule, written by lazy people with no clue about what they were saying is good, and I am all for that. People should work to get bad, stupid, dumb rules re-written properly.

Working to show an HOA that they are selectively enforcing a badly written, lazy rule, i am all for as well. So, if your rule says no more than 2 animals may be owned/raised/kept, then enforce it on everyone, not just the people with big dogs, outside cats, snakes you don't like, pot bellied pigs, some breed you don't like, etc.. the HOA must uphold their end of the contract too.

JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
I'd define what are considered household pets (cats, dogs, birds in a cage, ferrets, pigs, lizards, snakes, alligators) and I'd always consider what your local organizations are saying are problems as well as worst case scenarios.

Before I lived in a HOA, I did catsit from someone who had well over the legal city limit of cats and had moved on to collecting hamsters. At least, all these animals were indoors.

Hamsters, cats and rabbits can be very destructive to the local environment. There are a few hotspots in Los Angeles County where rabbit destruction (from dumped pets) has become a problem. Potbelly pigs are also destructive.

The worst case scenario in California would be fires or earthquakes wherein firefighters/owners might attempt to rescue animals or the animals were all released into the neighborhood due a natural disaster.

I volunteered for over a decade at an animal shelter. They brought back everything from a hog, a potbelly pig to alligators. An animal shelter (and in some cases, the city) can be pushed into financial disaster by animal hoarders. Even when the person is clearly above the city limit, it takes a long time for things to be corrected (and I know someone who had 20-odd dogs without a kennel license as well as a reformed cat lady who had so many cats she was shoveling kitty litter)through legal channels. Limits to pets may seem arbitrary, but it then helps you define how much is too much and prevent animal hoarding situations.

Here's a tale about too many hamsters.

JenniferM9 (California)
Posts: 42
Posted:
We went through something similar. We have a 2 pet limit but one long time resident had 3 cats. Since it wasn't causing any problems, we did choose to grandfather the extra cat in this one time.

Another resident tried to add a third pet, and the rule was enforced and she was given plenty of time to find a new home for it, which ended up happening quickly.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
nothing better for an HOA than inconsistent enforcement, favoritism, and undocumented rules. Toss in a sense of secrecy behind it, and you have the makings of one healthy HOA.
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 06/21/2013 12:23 PM
nothing better for an HOA than inconsistent enforcement, favoritism, and undocumented rules. Toss in a sense of secrecy behind it, and you have the makings of one healthy HOA.

I agree with Brian. Our HOA was all about secrecy: secret meetings, directors having as many pets as they wanted and a refusal to even divulge to the state the names of the officers. Some people call it a HOA; others might call it a less than benign dictatorship. Brian, you must be a real hoot to talk in real life. ;)

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