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JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
There is a plot of land owned by the HOA and it has been worked as a victory garden for 16 years by many of the residents over the years. One man put in a water meter 16 years ago and has put the bill in another man's name since he has quit working at the garden. I believe they have as a group over the years met the criteria for a prescriptive easement. If many residents have worked it over the years and the man who started it and put in the water meter has now passed it on to this other man does the prescriptive easement still hold? Thank you
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Our HOA water bill and utilities are put in some residents name who no longer lives in our HOA. Do not know who he was. It was just required to have a persons name on the account per the water and utilities department to bill. The address on the bill is the HOA's.

I do not understand what you mean by prescriptive?

Former HOA President
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
In most states you cannot acquire a prescriptive easement for property that you are using by permission. (I think, and I am not a lawyer).
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
That is correct you cannot get a prescriptive easement if you have permission to use the property, but if you were never given permission and you have openly used the property for more than five years then you have a right to keep using the property if it has never been challenged before the five years expired.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Do you know for certain that the man who put in the water meter 16 years ago was not given permission? If this is common area, and anyone who wishes to use it may use it, how can it belong to "a group, which in any case probably has had its own turnover?
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Sorry, Joyce, I interrupted myself and didn't think through my reply. I guess I'd like to know if there's some other use to which your HOA wants to put the area? In other words are you wondering if the area still is your HOA's common area? versus somehow "belonging" to those who've used it constantly for 16 years? Do these folks keep other HOA members out of this area?

Or are you wondering who the water meter really belongs to?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
FYI

Prescriptive Easement..An easement upon another's real property acquired by continued use without permission of the owner for a period provided by state law to establish the easement. The problems with prescriptive easements are that they do not show up on title reports, and the exact location and/or use of the easement is not always clear and occasionally moves by practice or erosion.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
I would research the issue in the Associations minutes. I would expect permission was needed to tap the water line and instal a meter. Therefore, the minutes of meetings of the Association likely have some sort of record of the agreement.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
The HOA will spend an unlimited amount of money to protect its property, because it has to, legally. So this will take years in court to fight and tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. Judges to not take property from one and give it to another easily.

How far are you willing to go? and pay the HOA legal fees, and your own? Come up with a better solution.
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
You all have confused presciptive easement with adverse possession. The HOA may or may not have given permission 16 years ago. I have asked the man to research this and if there was permission given and it is documented then presciptive easement will not apply. I do not have a dog in this fight except to say that this farm has been here 16 years and the new board president has just decided to use her perceived power to override the desires of the rest of the community. She has basically sealed her own fate and I resigned the board and this is just one of the issues involved with my decision. The new vice president told this man who works the farm he should sell the vegetables and donate it to his NW group and then he can funnel it back to the man! This is criminal and I believe could be considered money laundering! It is at least incredibly dishonest. I don't want anything to do with people like this and refuse to serve on a board with people of this ilk! Please don't tell me I am a quitter as you don't know what else I have had to endure from these horrible opinion. The community is now talking recall!
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
I forgot to state that this plot of land is designated as a future (far in the future) parking lot. We don't have the funds for such a project and won't have for years to come. This is a beautiful garden and should remain as many residents love to grow things there.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoyceN1 on 05/18/2013 9:16 AM

It is at least incredibly dishonest. I don't want anything to do with people like this and refuse to serve on a board with people of this ilk!

I certainly won't say that you are a quitter. Everyone has to make their own determination on what stress they are willing to take on in a volunteer position.

As you know, there are consequences with every decision, some known, some unknown, some intended and some unintended. You are now seeing some of the consequences of your decision to not serve. Had you been able to endure more and made the decision to continue serving, perhaps the consequences would have been different.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Why does the prez think her vote counts more than other directors? How many are on the Board? Do they just bend to her will?

At any rate, homeowners can sometimes accomplish more if they're NOT on the Board, but it takes getting group of allies together to put pressure on the Board in person and at meetings. If a lot of owners want to keep the garden (and there's no legal reason to close it down), you all even can petition for a special meeting to discuss this.

See davis-stirling.com for more about petitions, etc. in CA
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
DEFINITION FROM NOLO’S PLAIN-ENGLISH LAW DICTIONARY

Adverse Possession…A means by which one can legally take another's property without paying for it. The requirements for adversely possessing property vary between states, but usually include continuous and open use for a period of five or more years and paying taxes on the property in question.

JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
I am not aware of any consequences of quitting and the president hand picked this board with the exception of me. I have been voted in twice on my own merits with no endorsements from these dishonest people, thankfully. The president is letting her perceived power go to her head and what she fails to remember is that the board is there to serve the community's best interests not the other way around. She and the vice president did a tag team number on me at a special executive meeting in the guise of dealing with personnel issues. I had no idea that I was considered personnel. I was called on the carpet because I invited local law enforcement liaison to a NW meeting because of many complaints about the NW men accosting our residents or their guests. They are not trained and yet claim to be and refuse to allow the officer to train them. She was treated rudely and abusively by the vice president who is also head of NW. He told her he was shutting down the meeting as she had no right to be there. She told him that she did not need an invitation. The NW is out of control. The community for the most part has enjoyed and stands behind the continuing of the use of the land for the garden.
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posted:
Joyce,

Is yours a condo or an HOA? If it is a condo, each owner usually has an undivided interest in the common areas. (An undivided interest means that each owner owns a percentage but no specific real estate.) In this case a prescritive easement may not apply because they already have an interest in the property.

BTW one of the big differences between a prescriptive easement and adverse possession is that in the former situation one party asserts he has a right to continue to use another's property while in the latter the party seeks to acquire title to the land.
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Yes I am very aware of the difference between prescriptive easement and adverse possession. We are a HOA and we are a planned unit development(PUD). Only trying to insure that this garden stays because the land is not going to be used by the HOA for years. The new president is letting her position go to her head. She acts as though the members are her subjects and she the queen. As I said the board serves the community not the other way around. I am sure the majority of the community is not going to allow this garden to go away. She is having a cease and desist letter sent and all the plants will be neglected and probably die.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
I am sure the majority of the community is not going to allow this garden to go away.


So do something. Send a letter to every homeowner explaining what the president is doing and setup a meeting or have every homeowner send a letter to remove her from office. Simply getting upset will not change anything. You need to get organized.
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
You are right and that is what I am working on there are a group of us passing the word around. We don't have time to send letters, thank you for your input.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Who' writing the Cease & desks letter, Joyce--an attorney? Who's it being sent to--all homeowners? And all of you homeowners the, are paying for the postage and attorney fee (if it applies) because of opinion?

I don't see how any homeowner can be kept off of common area property. It does not belong to the president, it belongs to all of you.

Did the board vote to send this letter?

Meantime, I think you're doing the right thing by getting members of your HOA together to keep an amenity that so many enjoy.
JoyceN1 (California)
Posts: 90
Posted:
The "Cease and Desist" letter was sent to the previous man who worked the garden to the address of the man who is now working the garden! They can't get anything right. And no, it was done covertly and not sent to the members and was sent out by order of the board president without a board vote. It was written up and sent out by the property management company. I was ordered by the president not to discuss board business with anyone and I don't know why because I never do. She on the other hand talks to her friends about everything the board is working on. She wanted to keep this a secret and I suppose she thought everyone would tell her what a hero she is for ridding the community of this beautiful garden! I resigned and immediately talked with the man who is spending a fortune to improve the garden. I downloaded and printed out info for him and asked him to find out if the HOA ever gave permission for the garden to be there because if they did and it is documented then prescriptive easement doesn't apply. It doesn't matter however because too many people I have told about this are up in arms over this. There were flyers put on every homeowner's door yesterday to come to the board meeting to support keeping the garden. She has a real surprise coming. She will be dethroned as they are talking recall as well! In my opinion I don't want to be on a board of liars, power hungry people and people who suggest criminal activity such as money laundering.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
For anyone that may have been following these threads and expecting that this is the same Association, it appears that the garden was removed. The status of the recall is unknown. See:

Homeowners flap uproots community garden

Note: there are several threads on the same subject. I've updated all of them for the benefit of future readers.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

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