💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
There is a young man who is living in a unit (We have a court case to get a Bar and Band) who is not supposed to be living in the unit. The owner has said he has no one living in the unit, but we know his son is living in the unit. We know the lights are on and he food has been seen in the refrigerator by the pest control man.

I thought to help our court case I would check the electric meter. I notice that the meter seemed to indicate that no electricty was being used.

Does anyone here have any idea how this could happen?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
What are you checking? The numbers or watching the wheel spinning? If the wheel is not spinning, then power is not being consumed. However, that wheel can move very slowly if it's only lights or small appliances running.

It's not exactly the HOA's business who lives in that unit. As long as the dues are being paid, that's as far as the HOA needs to go. However, in our HOA we did have a squatter situation. It was discovered after the squatter's dog bit someone. The HOA contacted the owner who was out of state. He was unaware of the person living there as there was no lease. It was the owner who took the guy to court. The HOA just played "witness" to the court case. They could not kick the guy out as they do not own the property.

Former HOA President
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Melissa,
I couldn't even see a wheel when I checked the electric meters so I had to depend on the numbers.

I almost knew I would get a response similiar to yours that it is not our business who lives in a unit. I respectfully disagree with you. This is a senior independent living community and our documents restrict residences as to age but also giving the Board the authority to give waivers in "emergency" situations. The owner never came to the Board to request a waiver, he just called me and the President last October and told us that "workmen" would be going in and out"

There are other things in our documents that would prevent him or anyone else even of age living in the unit by "sneaking in". But that was not my question, I was mainly concerned with the electric meter. I really wish I could have seen a "wheel"

Also I am certain our lawyer would have told us if it was not our business who lives in a unit.

and yes, I do now we are allowed to have 20% of the units with underage people living in them. But this is not for people who "sneak in" It is for a widowned underage person or for someong who inherits a unit.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
if the 'unit' is Dad's 'permanent residence' for tax purposes you are SOL as per HUD 1995

the 55+ person DOES NOT have to reside 'full time', merely establish residency AS DEFINED BY HUD

i would guess your docs specify 1 person 55+ per unit
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Call the power company and have them check for possible improper electricity consumption. It's within their right because it's their meter and I bet the meter is on common property - the exterior of the condo.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:

Also I am certain our lawyer would have told us if it was not our business who lives in a unit.


A lawyer will take whatever side you pay them to take. If you want to kick them out, they will help you kick them out and bill you. If the tennant wants to stay, they can hire a lawyer and use every loophole to stay.

Lawyers will do anything.
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 05/16/2013 7:50 AM
if the 'unit' is Dad's 'permanent residence' for tax purposes you are SOL as per HUD 1995

the 55+ person DOES NOT have to reside 'full time', merely establish residency AS DEFINED BY HUD

i would guess your docs specify 1 person 55+ per unit

The unit is not Dad's permanent residence. Dad lives more that 15 miles away.
I have researched and found that we can have a more restrictive age requirement than and least one person 55+ in a unit. The only person allowed to be living in a unit who is not of age is the spouse of a person who is of age. Our documents specifically state this.

Before I moved in there was a young man living in a unit with his two aunts. They were also sneaking around and acting as though he were not living in the unit. This young man caused a multitude of problems including dealing drugs. We don't want to take that chance again. Of course I know an older person can cause the same type of problems. I have even read about prostitute rings in senior communities. But at least we are doing our best to follow our douments.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Are you sure it is living in the home or ownership? How is residence/owner defined?

The HOA still does NOT own the property nor the meter outside the home. The meter belongs to the electric company. The home belongs to the homeowner. Sorry you do not like that response and did not want to hear it. It is a fact. A HOA does NOT own the homes in a HOA. It is a "CLUB" of homeowners who share a common element/property. Which is outside of those 4 walls. Whatever is inside those 4 walls are NOT the HOA's. No matter if it is condos or single houses. The HOA does NOT own the homes unless they have the deed to it.

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Bonnie

If the person is not causing any issues and is flying under the radar then it might be best to "ignore" it versus taking a "sneak" peek at the meter to build a case.

While we are not an age based association, we have several living arrangements that we choose to ignore as they are not causing any problems. Now could some say we are defacto violating or own covenants by ignoring such? Well, yes we are but we consider it in our best interest to do so as they are not a problem and the dues are paid on time.

We have more issues with "covenant legal" people who are not paying, causing issues, etc. These people we concentrate on, versus the rule bender that pays and causes us no issues.

Hope this helps.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/16/2013 4:01 PM
Are you sure it is living in the home or ownership? How is residence/owner defined?

The HOA still does NOT own the property nor the meter outside the home. The meter belongs to the electric company. The home belongs to the homeowner. Sorry you do not like that response and did not want to hear it. It is a fact. A HOA does NOT own the homes in a HOA. It is a "CLUB" of homeowners who share a common element/property. Which is outside of those 4 walls. Whatever is inside those 4 walls are NOT the HOA's. No matter if it is condos or single houses. The HOA does NOT own the homes unless they have the deed to it.

Yes I am well aware that the HOA does not own the unit. That is why we cannot evict the young man. We have already been to court over this and now we are just waiting for the ruling of the court. We don't actually need the meter reading to build a case. Four people have signed affadvids. We have a strong enough case without the meter reading. The meters are not on the unit but rather grouped togther on the building. To me this arrangement makes them on the common area.

I did not want to go into detail about our Master Deed because that was not what my question was about. No one is allowed to sneak into our community and especially someone underage.

A couple from my church tried to "sneak in" in 2010 and were told they could not live here. I was not on the Board at that time so I had nothing to do with tellimg them they could not live here. I didn't even know they were planning on moving in until a day before they were told they coudn't.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Again electric meters are the utilities property. It does matter if they are on common property or on your house. The equipment is the electric company. I even believe there are laws for messing with the meters that carry fines or jail time. It is possible each electric company has different models.

Former HOA President
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
and yes, I do now we are allowed to have 20% of the units with underage people living in them. But this is not for people who "sneak in" It is for a widowned underage person or for someong who inherits a unit.


Obviously not a 55+ only community. Anyone with a decent lawyer could fight you on the grounds that you are not a 55+ association. Selective enforcement equals "you loose"

I agree drug dealing and prostitution is not good. But I think your going about it the wrong way. If you are successful, great. If not, you wasted a large amount of your homeowners money.
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/16/2013 5:00 PM
Again electric meters are the utilities property. It does matter if they are on common property or on your house. The equipment is the electric company. I even believe there are laws for messing with the meters that carry fines or jail time. It is possible each electric company has different models.

That makes sense to me. But is looking at a meter messing with it?
Thank you for staying on the subject of electric meter.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
My point again is that it is non of the HOA's business. Looking at a meter to see if someone lives in the home? A bit too nosy. Seriously, things like that give the HOA a bad name and reputation. It's almost looking in someone's trash. Just get your nose out and deal with bigger matters. As long as dues are being paid on the property that is all your HOA needs to concern itself about. If they aren't then lien and then foreclose. Problem solved.

Former HOA President
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 05/16/2013 5:06 PM
and yes, I do now we are allowed to have 20% of the units with underage people living in them. But this is not for people who "sneak in" It is for a widowned underage person or for someong who inherits a unit.


Obviously not a 55+ only community. Anyone with a decent lawyer could fight you on the grounds that you are not a 55+ association. Selective enforcement equals "you loose"

I agree drug dealing and prostitution is not good. But I think your going about it the wrong way. If you are successful, great. If not, you wasted a large amount of your homeowners money.


This is what I found in my research:
I think this was on activerain.com but not certain. I just copied and pasted. I am not certain what HOPA stands for.

Once a community meets the HOPA requirements, they are free to create their own rules for how they will define their age restriction, as long as they are in compliance with state laws. The community can make the age-restriction more strict than the HOPA requirement, such as stating that all of the residents must be over 55 or that 80 percent of the households must include a resident aged 60 or better.

We are not selective enforcing a rule. More than one person has been told they can not move in and no one fought it until now.
ValerieS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 244
Posted:
I wholeheartedly agree with Melissa. Don't go looking for trouble, and frankly, sneaking around and peering at other peoples meters is looking for trouble.
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/16/2013 4:20 PM
Bonnie

If the person is not causing any issues and is flying under the radar then it might be best to "ignore" it versus taking a "sneak" peek at the meter to build a case.

While we are not an age based association, we have several living arrangements that we choose to ignore as they are not causing any problems. Now could some say we are defacto violating or own covenants by ignoring such? Well, yes we are but we consider it in our best interest to do so as they are not a problem and the dues are paid on time.

We have more issues with "covenant legal" people who are not paying, causing issues, etc. These people we concentrate on, versus the rule bender that pays and causes us no issues.

Hope this helps.


Fortunately the residents who belong in our building give very few problems.
But I see a problem in your future when one of these living arrangements you are choosing to ignore now does give a problem in the future. You more that likely will having a hard time with enforcement.
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Thanks for all replies and all viewpoints. I just want to say that I probably will not check the meter again. although if I ever look at my own meter, I can not help but see this meter because the meters are adjacent just as my unit is adjacent to our "problem unit".

I have arthritis all through my body it is difficult to get down to look at the meters. Correction getting down is not the problem. Getting up is the problem.

Also I just want to let everone know that I do not need to go on anyone else's property to look at these meters. This is a condominium building with 43 apartments in the building.

We do not go into the unit because we know we cannot go in without a valid reason.
Once a realtor was with me and we knocked on the door.and the young man answered. Another time there was notice of a fire in a unit possibly this unit and our President went down to check. She did knock on the door first and the young man answered and told her there was no fire in the unit.. This was the second unit she checked.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
BonnieG1;

some tough love:

since you did not even know what HOPA is, you probably are not in compliance

HOPA was a 1995 exemption from the Federal Fair Housing Act of ?1972?

HOPA has extremely strict and unbending requirements (which are fairly easy to meet)

however, if they are not met 'to the letter' the exemption for age restriction is LOST

demonstrated intent
advertising
signage
ANNUAL VERIFICATION to ensure 80% minimum ONE resident per home (if not performed, exemption is lost)

ps. under HOPA a child's LEGAL GUARDIAN and/or PARENT may have the child in permanent residence REGLARDLESS OF ANY AGE RESTRICTIONS ~ this does NOT include visiting/residing grandchildren UNLESS the GPs are awarded guardianship

? wanna bet the house ?
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 05/19/2013 7:30 AM
BonnieG1;

some tough love:

since you did not even know what HOPA is, you probably are not in compliance

HOPA was a 1995 exemption from the Federal Fair Housing Act of ?1972?

HOPA has extremely strict and unbending requirements (which are fairly easy to meet)

however, if they are not met 'to the letter' the exemption for age restriction is LOST

demonstrated intent
advertising
signage
ANNUAL VERIFICATION to ensure 80% minimum ONE resident per home (if not performed, exemption is lost)

ps. under HOPA a child's LEGAL GUARDIAN and/or PARENT may have the child in permanent residence REGLARDLESS OF ANY AGE RESTRICTIONS ~ this does NOT include visiting/residing grandchildren UNLESS the GPs are awarded guardianship

? wanna bet the house ?

Actually I was the person who fought for no advertising indicating we would allow someon uner 55 move into a unit. I have known about the 80% requiriement of at least one person 55 or older residing in a unit almost since I bacam a Baord member. Shortly after I was on the Board I read a book written by a cou[;e of lawyers.
The main reason we are trying to get the young man who "snuck" into the unit out is because we don't want to open the door for other underage residents to move into any unit. This young man knows he is not supposed to be here and is keeping a very low profile.
Currently (with the exception of the young man who is not supposed to be here) we have only one unit with a couple underage living in it. So we more than meet the requirements. Even in this situation, the man will be 55 in a few months.
I know about the Fair Housing Act of 1968 and the amendments to this that allowed senior communities to deiscriminate due to age. Just bacause I don't know all the abbreviations does not mean that I haven/t researched this issue.

And the lady working as our manager had ages verified this year.

As I mentioned before, other people were told they could not move in. Our Board is very concerned about keeping this a retirement community.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Bonnie

I believe many of us are advising you to leave the situation alone as it is under the radar. He is not causing any problems. Addressing it might just open a Pandora's box when there is no reason to. Be careful when/where you chose to fight.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
John I understand what you are saying. And I have thought about the pandora's box you mentioned. Such as how much will the judge check into our records. I don't know everything that had or had not been done before I was on the Board relating to keeping this a senor community.

But it is too late not to fight as the fight has already started.
A previous Board member has told me and others that she has had trouble with this owner before. That is one reason that I worked with him when we received some late payments from the owner, but not the only reason. There was a death in his family, his mother-in-law who prevously owned the unit. I told him (I can't remember if by email or letter) that we would waive the late fee for a few months due to the death in the family. That in my opinion should be done for anyone in that situation.

He the owner mentioned in court last time we were there that his son was in the service. This is the first time I heard that and if that is truly the case all the owner would have had to do was come to the Board and request a waiver as our documents do allow the Board to give waivers.

BUt this owner has lied so much that I truly do not know when to believe him.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/17/2013 3:29 AM
My point again is that it is non of the HOA's business. Looking at a meter to see if someone lives in the home? A bit too nosy. Seriously, things like that give the HOA a bad name and reputation. It's almost looking in someone's trash. Just get your nose out and deal with bigger matters. As long as dues are being paid on the property that is all your HOA needs to concern itself about. If they aren't then lien and then foreclose. Problem solved.

Actually, if I remember correctly, according to our documents we can place a lien on a unit if someone violates the rules. Of course we would need a fine schedule and start fining before we could place a lien on for violation of rules. And our lawyer told us that in NE we can place a lien for nonpayment of fines. We are working on a fine schedule but are not eager to start fining. All our members know we are working on a fine schedule and have received the proposed fine schedule.

We definitely are not going this way with this owner at this time.
SharonH9 (Virginia)
Posts: 216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BonnieG1 on 05/19/2013 3:01 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/17/2013 3:29 AM

Actually, if I remember correctly, according to our documents we can place a lien on a unit if someone violates the rules. Of course we would need a fine schedule and start fining before we could place a lien on for violation of rules. And our lawyer told us that in NE we can place a lien for nonpayment of fines. We are working on a fine schedule but are not eager to start fining. All our members know we are working on a fine schedule and have received the proposed fine schedule.

We definitely are not going this way with this owner at this time.



I cringe when I see fines and liens for nonpayment of fines. Aren't there more creative solutions to the problem than going down that road?

BTW I lived in Nebraska for over twenty years. Love that state!!
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Sharon, some owners have for years ignored verbal requests to correct a situation. One owner was Presidnet at one time. His ignoring a rule was and still is a sore point in our community.

I am open to any suggestions as to creative ways to handle things like this.
We are not usually fast to place a lien on a unit, but the owner of the unit we recently placed a lien on had been behind by many months more that once in the past.

Although our documents state that we have to give 10 days to correct a violation, our proposed fine schedule indicates we will give two written warnings at least two weeks apart and not place a fine until at least two weeks after the second written notice.
We really would rather not fine, but don't feel it is fair to the owners who are obeying the rules to let some owners to "their own thng"

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here