From initial proposal to final adoption

I have attempted to define the process from beginning to end how the BoD in my HOA should should make a decision.

There are only 4 real questions that need to be asked once a proposal is adopted or rejected by the BoD. Your HOA my vary, but I think most of you will find that you can substitute the rules in your HOA for what I have defined.

I was surprised after attaching the flowchart to another post I created that most people felt that the process I outlined was incorrect and overly complicated.

Perhaps, some felt that I was suggesting each homeowner should be kept abreast of every decision and asked if they apposed, thats not the case. The flowchart was created simply to deal with the most controversial of decisions and the process, in order, that the BoD should take in order to maintain the integrity of the process should certain members of the HOA oppose. It ensures that the BoD knows exactly what it should do, and the order that is should be done in order to maintain the integrity an impartiality of the process assuming that the BoD applies these rules equally to everyone.

Each person/s who opposes the board should have the same opportunity to engage the process in a consistent manner. That is the point of the flowchart is to outline the potential process in as much detail as possible.

Some of you may realize that this is simple common sense and to go to this much trouble is silly. I assure you that what I have written escapes a lot of people.

If you think I'm wrong I would like your opinion. Please state you point and reasons.....

Part II (not included) defines where and how proposals are funded once adopted.

Thank you.

Chris

Chris, it appears that a key word you used is ...how the Board 'should' make a decision... I am am not aware of CC&Rs which state in detail how a Board is to arrive at a decision; mostly and usually it's by majority vote of the Board members.

There are many posts on this site re whether a Board 'should' go to the community prior to their making a decision; however, there are many Board members who post here who feel that since the Board was elected and has the authority to make the decision/s on behalf of the community they (the Board) don't want to include the community in the process to arrive at the decision--too many opinions, etc...
As far as what a Board 'should' do to arrive at a decision, the best way for you to ensure that process is to get on the Board yourself.

You ask, 'if 3 of 5 members make a decision do they have to even tell the other 2?' It's unusual and somewhat suspect if 3 Board members are consistently meeting & making decisions without benefit of the other 2 members. If this is a known and proven recurring problem, then there is more going on than anything a flowchart would accomplish. Board mtg. minutes can be requested by any resident; you can then learn how past decisions have been arrived at.

You asked, 'do your By-Laws specifically state that an issue must be heard by all members before an action is carried out? Most of you are saying OF COURSE it has to go before all members you don't need the by-lays or CC&R's to tell you that...' However, this is NOT the concensus of opinion with alot of posters here. Most hold to the fact that since the Board does have the authority (by the CC&Rs) to render decisions, they should act on that authority and not bring ALL issues to members.

Read and digest your CC&Rs; that is your 'Bible' when dealing with Boards and the processes they MUST follow. If you don't like the process your CC&Rs dictate, then be proactive in raising awareness with resident majority and revise the CC&Rs. The how-to on accomplishing that should also be stated. With your election to the BoD, you will have an 'in' and can then begin to make headway. Good Luck!

Chris you state the three are making decisions without informing the other two. Do you know this for a fact or is it hearsay? What kinds of decisions are they making; things that just concern the day to day operation of the community or decisions committing thousands of your association dollars? Are they allowed to? In our CC&R's for instance any three members of the BOD can take action outside of a meeting as long as the action is entered into the record and signed by the members involved; however any capital improvement over $2000.00 requires a vote of the community. Does your CC&R's or State law prohibit this action?

While from your post you are implying that these three are out of control just because they are "apparently" making decisions and excluding the others. The cure for that is voting them out, just make sure you are voting the right people out; because it sounds like you have a weak and ineffective president (See Joe West's post on board presidents) who may need to be replaced.

While I can appreciate the work and thought you put into it; your flowchart is overly complicated and not practical to the day to day operation of an association. You say you don't want the entire community to vote on every proposal, yet that is just what you are proposing in your flowchart. Every proposal passed or rejected goes to the homeowners to see if they want a special meeting to overturn whatever decision the BOD is making; this would not only be onerous but time consuming and impractical.

Define a controversial decision and is it controversial to the entire community or just a few? The BOD is charged with making sound business decisions concerning the operation of your corporation and maintaining your association in a certain manor. To do that by the very nature of the job a percentage of the HO's will be upset by any decision the Board makes. Given the ability there are probably enough people who would vote to under fund the association to keep their assessments low with the intention to move on before the association has to pay the piper. The author Robert Heinline called it voting themselves "circuses and candy" or words to that effect.

Chris it's been the consensus of the people posting that this is unnecessary and overly confusing but if you can convince your BOD to adopt it, go for it. But it seems to me if your going to go to all this trouble you might just as well get rid of the BOD and hold weekly votes of all the HO's on whether or not to pay the electric bill, paint the clubhouse, etc.

Chris:

This is the purpose of a lot of states having open meeting laws. It prevents boards from having a poker game with just themselves and making rules. So with your example if 3 out of 5 board members approved at least the other two if they were at the meeting would have had an opportunity to hear and speak against it.

I think what you have is way overkill and could lead to problems. There is no provisions for US citizens to veto a congress decision. We express our thoughts through our votes. HOA's can actually recall board members so they have greater powers than the average citizen. If you don't like how a board member is performing remove them from office. If you are concerned about your HOA get involved.

As for your proposal how many signatures would be required for a special meeting? How many yes votes would it take to overturn, a majority at the meeting or a majority of all homeowners? If just a meeting majority what happens when the other half gets stirred up and wants to reverse the decision back to what the board originally decided? Chris it is way to complicated and leaves open a can of worms for everything. You may think it will be for only controversial things, but soon if the homeowners realize they can do this everything may be controversial.

Quote from BradP -

“As for your proposal how many signatures would be required for a special meeting? How many yes votes would it take to overturn, a majority at the meeting or a majority of all homeowners? If just a meeting majority what happens when the other half gets stirred up and wants to reverse the decision back to what the board originally decided? Chris it is way to complicated and leaves open a can of worms for everything. You may think it will be for only controversial things, but soon if the homeowners realize they can do this everything may be controversial.

For the love of god.....Did you miss the post right before yours???

“The special meeting process is a check and balance against the authority of the BoD. The requirement to hold a special meeting is the communities protection against being called to meetings every other week. In my community you need 76 sigs (of 370 homes) just to call the meeting and a 60% quorum number just to hold a vote (of course quorum falls by 1/2 at each subsequent meeting).”

That means that you have to have something like 220 some odd people at the meeting just to hold a vote, then and only then can you take a majority vote of the people at the meeting.

To suggest that everyone will call a special meeting over everything, is really missing the point of the process.

If someone tries to call a meeting and the subject of the meeting is silly or a waste of time, then those trying to call it would have to convince 76 other people to sign a petition. Then and only then could you even start the process. Most people are to lazy to read HOA correspondence, never mind spend weeks walking door to door trying to convince 76 of your neighbors that you should be allowed to build a 4 story shed in their front yard....

The point of the signatures is to protect us from frivolous meetings, now if you can get 76 sigs, you should be allowed to have a meeting. This is the same process that the community would have to go through to remove a Board member.

Think about it……

Chris:

If you are having to defend your position by resorting to insults then I think it should be pretty clear to you that maybe your position isn't feasible.

OK, using your scenario,lets assume 76 people sign a peitition and you get 220 people at a meeting and get 111 votes to overturn. Now those 109 people who voted against it will be upset and have the numbers to call another meeting, and there are still 150 community members that haven't been tapped to bring into the fray. If you honestly think that one meeting and a reversal will be the end of it you are mistaken. That is why in 99.9% of associations the BOD decisions are final and only they can change it. That prevents the waste of time and effort that could happen in your community.

Now...with all that said unless your community is different than most good luck getting 220 people to a meeting. I am done trying to explain why the process is what it is. If you feel that strongly then present to the homeowners and get it passed. I can guarantee it will be a mistake, but that is my opinion.

Chris, I appreciate your efforts but your plan is too complex and cumbersome. Remember, the Board manages not the homeowners. It appears to me you have little or no experience serving on Boards. To resolve your problems I suggest working to create good By-laws and hire a MC which will guide the Board in a maner which allows them to follow their governing documents while applying the Golden Rule.

The purpose of By-laws is to define the functional aspects of an organization. If they are not, and the member chose, amend the By-laws. I believe in defining the process via the By-laws; and the Board members following the By-laws. If Board members don't, then the By-laws provide accountability through the process of removal from the Board.

Chris,

The more you post, the more you sound like a person who is dead set on controlling every action of the board, and want to question every decision they make, and you want to bring the community in to side with you on every question, so that you can have your way. It's like a person who has a personal agenda, or perhaps worst, a personal vendetta against one or more of the board members because they've made a decision that you personally don't like, but which may be good for the community.

As I said before, that is mico managing and should not be done. What you're doing is impeding the work of the board.

The board may not be a good one, but when they have to do all the extra work of dealing with you trying to control them, it uses a lot of time and energy that they could be using on more important board business.

The flow chart, for the purpose you intend, is actually absurd, and if I were a board member in your community and you asked me to use it, I would tear it up. The Bylaws determine the duties and authority of the BOD, not a controlling homeowner who would like to try to tell them how to operate and question every decision.

You came here asking for comments, and you have been told time and again by people here who have a lot of experience with HOA board operation that you are going about it the wrong way. And instead of listening and trying to understand what these people are saying, you just attack them. What you're looking for here is an endorsement of your position, and because it's improper, you're not getting it. Instead you are getting good advice from people telling you that your position is improper. But you don't want to hear that, so you attack the people trying to help by implying that we're too stupid to understand what you're saying.

If the board is not doing a proper job, then recall them and get yourself on the board. Get elected as president, then you can teach the community how to control you and question every decision that you and the board make.

Don't bother telling me that I don't understand and that I should read your posts again, because I do understand, and actually I'm through reading your posts because they aren't going anywhere. They've degenerated to the point where you are insulting everyone who is trying to help.

Brad,

Thanks for taking the time to describe the process that you use, instead of simply telling me I'm a control freak or that my idea won't work (though, as I explain it's not MY idea).

We have a representative form of goverment. You made the statement " IF the American people could do that President Bush probably would have been ousted a long time ago". The fact is that we have multiple levels of representation, that is you have a Congressman (and to a lesser extent Senators) who represent YOU. That Congressman along with others can vote to IMPEACH. So in effect you can remove the President. He (your Congressman) can also call into question rules and laws that are being considered and that have already been passed.
The HOA is a microcosm of a government, but the fact is that there are many similarities. Your town council is probably the best place to try to draw parallels. Having said that you as a member of a town can attend council meetings, bring petitions ect. They may not directly effect the council like the process that we have here in our community, but it's much closer.

It's great to hear that the system in your neighborhood works, and I agree we need more Board members. Your system wouldn't work here. People fight like cats and dogs. It's pathetic. The point of defining the process in detail (again, its not MY PROCESS it is THE process that our community operates under) is to help community members who have no idea whatsoever how things are supposed to work, kinda like a judge instructs a jury.
I have taken upon myself to try to go outside our community to look for alternatives. I would consider an MC (something that is vigorously opposed here). I have to convince the community to take a new course and its not going to be easy.

William,

I just don't get it.....

THIS IS NOT MY IDEA THIS IS THE WAY OUR BY-LAWS ARE WRITTEN! If you think they suck, as most here appear to do, I'm ok with that (I didn't write them). My experience is limited to my HOA. I came here to try to understand how other communities would view what we do and if we should expand on it. I don't deserve sarcasm for my efforts....

You say you read what I wrote, yet you obviosly missed that part. I can take the criticism, but give me some substance too as you offed little in the way you or your community would handle some of the situations I outlined.

Contrary to your interpretation of my motives, I have never attempted to control our BoD. I would just like to know what the process should be for myself and the rest of the community. If our By-Laws say that the BoD should get three quotes for contracts, and they don't. Then what? If they, after 11 years have saved about 5% of what were going to need to pay for our capital assets (in 5-7 years), what should we as homeowners do? If they decide to build a gazebo instead of using that money for capital repairs (even though at meetings addressing that issue I among others questioned how these long term costs were going to be paid for ad made suggestions).

I resent your assumption that I'm a control freak who is forcing everyone to my opinion. I will say this once more for effect, I simply diagrammed the process that is already in place here. I came here looking to affirm that process or seek alternatives. My frustration lays in the fact that no matter how much I say it, people are misinterpreting my motives.

Removing a board member here isn't going to accomplish anything. Relying on peoples best intentions, here in this neighborhood, isn't going to solve anything.

Believe it or not I'm fighting against the control freaks, those people that think the BoD should ask every time they spend money. I think there should be a process in place in extreme circumstances for the community to appose the BoD. Just like there is a process for an officer of the law to enter your home.

If that makes me a control freak then so be it.

I want to help define a better process, but I have the disadvantage of having to help others unlearn our broken system (that's not my assessment, that is your assestment and the assessment of others).

I try to thank everyone for there input and try to be as respectful as possible. I hope we can move forward and try to be a little more constructive as I am genuinely interested in your opinions. All I ask is before you assume my intentions, ask......

Thanks again.

Chris, my post was going to be the same as William's and Brad's but that would have seemed like everyone was picking on you so I chose not to post it, then you posted again about being misunderstood. You asked for thoughts on your system and everyone said it was overly complicated and would not work, instead of stepping back and rethinking your idea you keep saying that we don't understand it or what you're trying to do. If that is the case perhaps you have failed to communicate it. But everyone has responded in good faith to ALL of your posts and for the most part when you didn't like the answers your responses were in the same vein.

--The irony is that with everything you read that I wrote, you were clearly selective. It's hard for me to even begin to constructively debate the topic when you totally miss one really important point....You make the comment "you asked for thoughts on your system..." It's not MY SYSTEM. This is THE system that was created here. There were a few questions I had when I started this thread, is it clear? And thoughts on the concept in general. I get the point that the --system is a poor one. I followed up a number of times and asked for examples of a better system. After more that 20 posts there is about 3-5 sentences worth of --examples -of specific concepts.

You imply that your HOA is out of control and it may well be, but we are only hearing your side of it. In one post you asked about "Saving for Capital Improvements Raising the funds" people gave you advice on why you needed a reserve study and how to have it done and it seemed that all you wanted were people to agree with how YOU wanted to do it.

--Be more specific....

In "What has to happen to turn an HOA over to a management company?" You said you were part of the committee that re-wrote your By-Laws; why didn't you put your plan in then?

--Again, it's not my plan this stuff already exists in our By-Laws, all I did was create a decision chart that shows where this stuff has to exist. I was only one member on the By-Laws committee.

In "The Board of directors and how they can spend money" it also appears that you are trying to micro-manage - your protestations to the contrary. You also posted your flowchart here and were told it wouldn't work which you clearly didn't like

--All I'm asking is, is it unreasonable to ask for a certain level of accountability from my BoD? You expect the same of your mayor, governor ect...

Your BOD is caring for 320 homes & 40 townhomes for $45,000 a year (Your figures) before you try to float your flowchart, unnecessarily IMO since you already can call a special meeting: you should work with the BOD to raise assessments, get a reserve study done and get your association on track before you waste your time and effort on something like this.

--Well this is really the crux of this conversation......I have pushed for the ideas you put forth. Small groups of people here in our community have convinced the (highly ineffective) BoD that they cannot spend the money necessary without putting it to a vote, something I totally disagree with (I wonder how many times I'll have to say this before people reading these posts that that is my position?).

I'm sure this is going to be seen as an attack which it's not meant to be but if it will put an end to it, I'll be the one to say it: Your flowchart is the most brilliant thing I've ever seen in my life. I'm sure that every HOA in America will race to amend their By-Laws to incorporate it. Happy now?????

--I really appreciated your time and opinion here though most of this, I don't understand why I deserve the sarcasm, but I'll be the bigger person here and ignore it and thank you for the rest of your post.