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Barbeque Grills and New CO laws

Started by SherrieL • 38 replies • 6142 views

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SherrieL (Colorado)
Posts: 22
Posted:
I love my barbeque grill and have had it since 2003 when I purchased my unit. I live in a Condo complex (stucco construction built in 2003) on the ground level with a neighbors balcony over head. Can the HOA require me to remove it now... due to the fire codes that will be effective May 1st? It is a gas grill with a 20 pound cylinder. What are my rights? Do I have any?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
You could remove it now or be forced to remove it on May 1st.
Failure to remove it will result in a violation of the fire codes.
SherrieL (Colorado)
Posts: 22
Posted:
Am I really in violation or is the HOA just on a power trip?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
You are the one who posted that the fire codes will change on May 1.

Have you looked up the code to see what it says?

Based on your posting, this appears to be an issue of the laws (fire codes) changing and the Association must comply with the laws.

If the Association fails to comply with the fire codes they risk insurance issues for failure to comply. Additionally, the Fire Marshall may issue fines when they do their inspection.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Sherrie, Please quote or give a reference to this new CO law. I am not aware of it but am aware that the City of Aurora has had a code restriction of open flame BBQ grills for several years. If it becomes a restriction where you live then your HOA is responsible to enforce it or else could be liable if there is a fire which causes damages. It would not be a power trip; it would be fiducial responsibility to enforce and stupid not to do so.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Many cities have had similar rules for many years - interesting that Colorado has just recently passed this. As others have said, you have to remove it sooner or later, and if the HOA has advised you the grill has to go right now, then you have no choice but to get rid of it.

I know it's not the same thing (I'm a BBQ purist and prefer charcoal myself!), but there are electric grills you can use. Check with your local fire department or marshall AND the HOA to see if it would be ok, and make sure you have a fire extinguisher that can put out electrical fires. Finally, make sure any outdoor electrical plug you might use has a GFI outlet - can't remember what it stands for, but I believe it can shut off the electrical source in case there's an malfunction that can cause a fire.
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 04/03/2013 9:06 AM
Finally, make sure any outdoor electrical plug you might use has a GFI outlet - can't remember what it stands for, but I believe it can shut off the electrical source in case there's an malfunction that can cause a fire.

GFI = Ground Fault Interrupt

It should trip the breaker if the hot wire shorts to ground minimizing (not preventing) the chance of fire. Electrical code requires that all outlets outside and in the bathrooms are on a GFI circuit.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> It should trip the breaker if the hot wire shorts to ground minimizing (not preventing) the chance of fire.

More correctly, the GFI trips if the white (neutral) becomes connected to ground.

Any ordinary breaker will trip if the hot wire shorts to ground.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Fred,

True enough, I should have been clearer in my answer.

The neutral and the ground are tied together in the fuse box. However, only the neutral wire should be the return path to ground.

The best way I heard it described was:

The neutral is the grounded conductor, whereas the ground is the grounding conductor.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
and .... the planet Earth is the giant capacitor allowing AC to your home with ONE wire

Westinghouse's DC system reqired TWO wires + the 'safety' ground

please don't start the 220V argument ~ each 'leg' is ONE wire
SherrieL (Colorado)
Posts: 22
Posted:
This is all I can find...COLORADO SPRINGS FIRE CODE: restrictions of certain types of cooking devices
on decks and balconies...Charcoal grills, solid fuel cooking appliances, smokers, oil
fryers, hibachis, and all other types of open-flame cooking devices are not allowed
on a balcony or deck constructed from combustible materials...
Spare LP-gas cylinders cannot be stored on combustible balconies, in the individual
unit, or within the interior of an apartment building. Barbecues are prohibited from
being stored in or near stairwells, hallways, or other areas intended for use as an exit,
or within an exit path.
Hazardous Activities

I am not on a deck or balcony and have the appropriate LP-gas cylinder size. Not an apartment building but a homeowner owned condo complex. I do store gas cylinder appropriately... Should I call my attorney???

Thanks everyone for your input!!!
SherrieL (Colorado)
Posts: 22
Posted:
Not open flamed... I have looked deligently for this "new law" they say is in effect... I cannot find anything other that what I copied below... Which is what it has always been... as far as I know.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> Should I call my attorney???

Not right away unless he is free.

It WOULD be reasonable to ask (the HOA) for a reference to the law at issue.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SherrieL on 04/03/2013 12:47 PM

Should I call my attorney???

Why don't you put in a call to the Fire Marshall's office or visit your local fire station.
They can probably help you on what changes are in the code.

Perhaps it's a misunderstanding of the code by the Association.

LauraR5 (Tennessee)
Posts: 220
Posted:
It's International Fire Code. I believe I posted the actual wording of the code in the other thread on this a couple of weeks ago. If your municipality/state hasn't adopted it yet, they will. It just takes a while for the cities to bring their laws up to the Code. Some cities allow one or two pound propane tanks (like camp stoves), but after watching that video about the liquid gas vapor explosion someone posted, I'm not sure I would want my neighbor to have that either. In our neighborhood, we recently fined someone for having a propane tank on the porch without a grill. Storing liquid gas is a huge safety issue in multi-unit dwellings.

Not only can your condo association fine you (because, trust me, they are hearing it from the Fire Marhsal and have probably been warned about noncompliance), the fire marshal can also fine you. Oh, and if your grill did somehow burn down your home (and most likely those around it), your insurance isn't going to pay.

Yes, the laws suck. I love to grill outside all summer. Right now I have a Charbroil electric grill. It doesn't suck and they have even better models than the one I have. I am also working on getting some park-like charcoal grills installed so that everyone in our community has a safe place to grill.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
What are my rights? Do I have any?


The new fire code is making it illegal. The condo is trying to enforce it. No you don't have any rights, or grandfathering. It's being done to prevent the building from burning down. Patio grills are known fire hazards.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
in addition to 'burning down'

it is to prevent a BOILING LIQUID EXPANDING VAPOR EXPLOSION in the event there is a fire which will impinge upon the stored pressurized liquefied petroleum gas

'google': BLEVE
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 04/03/2013 12:35 PM
Westinghouse's DC system

Your history is not quite correct. It was Edison who championed DC whereas Westinghouse pushed for AC because AC can be transmitted longer distances. The reason for this is because AC can be stepped up in voltage by a transformer which reduces the current passing through the wires. It is the current that causes a drop in voltage along the wire as the electricity is carried over long distances. At the other end, the voltage is stepped down by another transformer for delivery to the user. DC cannot pass through a transformer.

By the way, the purpose of a GFI outlet is to prevent a person (or animal) from being electrocuted in the event the person completes a connection from the electric outlet to the ground.

BTW, although I am presently a tax preparer, my profession for over a quarter of a century was an electrical engineer.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It was actually Nikoli Tesla who was in favor of the AC supply over Edison's DC option. It was the one selected at the Niagra Falls site when they put the hydroelectric plant in.
Former HOA President
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/05/2013 9:14 AM
It was actually Nikoli Tesla who was in favor of the AC supply over Edison's DC option. It was the one selected at the Niagra Falls site when they put the hydroelectric plant in.

True, but Westinghouse put up the bucks. He and Tesla were partners.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
ooops

got that one bass ackwards

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/05/2013 9:14 AM
It was actually Nikoli Tesla who was in favor of the AC supply over Edison's DC option. It was the one selected at the Niagra Falls site when they put the hydroelectric plant in.

More correctly, Westinghouse licensed Tesla's patents on AC induction motors and transformers and it was he who pushed for the AC system because it was his money behind the AC venture.

Edison tried to sell his DC with the claim that AC was more lethal, which, in truth, it is, because the skin behaves somewhat like a capacitor and it takes less AC current to pass through the skin than it does DC current and thus presents the greater danger to electrocution.

I could go into more physics, but I think the others on the forum have probably had more diversion from the OP than they desire.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am an electrician... So I am all about what is current... LOL!
Former HOA President
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 04/03/2013 1:31 PM
Posted By SherrieL on 04/03/2013 12:47 PM

Should I call my attorney???


Why don't you put in a call to the Fire Marshall's office or visit your local fire station.
They can probably help you on what changes are in the code.

Perhaps it's a misunderstanding of the code by the Association.


Simplest answer!

"Hi, I live in _____ neighborhood. My condo association said something about my BBQ Grille I have on my patio becoming illegal or something on May 1st. I was hoping to find out what's going on and if there's a law changing or what they might be talking about"

And how did this become an electrical thread? LOL
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> And how did this become an electrical thread? LOL

That's how the internet works. At least no one has been called a Nazi yet.
SherrieL (Colorado)
Posts: 22
Posted:

Thank you, this was a huge help! I did talk to an attorney he said he has 3 grills and can't imagine them being banned. I spoke with insurance company, she said it does not raise our rates and that they have had a few claims of fires, then she added that they preferr they are banned from condo complexes. I spoke with the Colorado State officer for HOA information and resourse. He said (long story short) he thinks they should be banned. (for all the reasons that everyone in this discussion has mentioned) Again thanks to eveyone for your input. I don't know anything about electricity... lol.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
the 'new' CO laws merely implement the Inernatiomal Fire Code on a statewide basis
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SherrieL on 04/10/2013 11:21 AM

Thank you, this was a huge help! I did talk to an attorney he said he has 3 grills and can't imagine them being banned. I spoke with insurance company, she said it does not raise our rates and that they have had a few claims of fires, then she added that they preferr they are banned from condo complexes. I spoke with the Colorado State officer for HOA information and resourse. He said (long story short) he thinks they should be banned. (for all the reasons that everyone in this discussion has mentioned) Again thanks to eveyone for your input. I don't know anything about electricity... lol.

And yet you didn't call the one place everyone told you to call - your local fire marshal or fire station. I wouldn't worry so much about your HOA though, if it is against the law the fire department will be happy to issue you a citation.

Oh BTW, a simple search turned up this article from the Denver Post which staes in part: Throughout the country, states and cities - including Aurora and Denver - have passed the 2003 International Fire Code, with its Section 308.3.1 that bans charcoal or open-flame cooking devices on "combustible balconies" of multifamily residences without sprinkler systems.

Code puts damper on thrill of the grill - The Denver Post
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2872006#ixzz2QnoIUMhb
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
SherrieL (Colorado)
Posts: 22
Posted:
I forgot to add that I did try to call the Fire Marshall, no answer, they must have been on call. But, with all the comments and information, I am coming to the conclusion, that they are not worth the risk even if it isn't a mandatory law in Colorado Springs. I wanted all the pros and cons. Thanks for the article you sent.
StephenJ6 (Colorado)
Posts: 1
Posted:
Our Insurance company sys that their underwriter "CAU" a very large HOA INsurance Company underwriter now prohibits gas or charcoal grills on decks or balconies in order to offer an Insurance quote to our HOA. The management company's insurance consultant says not really any Insurance company will allow gas or charcoal grills on decks or balconies. Does anyone have any way to overcome this requirement?
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By StephenJ6 on 01/30/2024 10:41 AM
Our Insurance company sys that their underwriter "CAU" a very large HOA INsurance Company underwriter now prohibits gas or charcoal grills on decks or balconies in order to offer an Insurance quote to our HOA. The management company's insurance consultant says not really any Insurance company will allow gas or charcoal grills on decks or balconies. Does anyone have any way to overcome this requirement?
You could self-insure. Though IMO the latter is competing for top honors as the oxymoron of the decade.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Please start a new post, Stephen. You'll get more replies that way.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SherrieL on 04/03/2013 7:57 AM
I love my barbeque grill and have had it since 2003 when I purchased my unit. I live in a Condo complex (stucco construction built in 2003) on the ground level with a neighbors balcony over head. Can the HOA require me to remove it now... due to the fire codes that will be effective May 1st? It is a gas grill with a 20 pound cylinder. What are my rights? Do I have any?

Talk to your local fire fighters.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Your grill is a fire hazard. I suggest you but a portable grill that operates on the 1# propane bottles, store it in your unit and grill a safe distance from buildings.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
The OP lives on the ground level unit thus as I see it she has a patio not a balcony. I believe this might make a difference and she would be allowed to cook there.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
10+ year old thread.

It is best not to reactivate old threads as your specific issue, even if similar, may be lost as many respond to the original issue.
Therefore, it's best to start a new thread.

Additionally, what was good advice in 2013 may be bad advice today as laws change.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 01/31/2024 8:59 AM
The OP lives on the ground level unit thus as I see it she has a patio not a balcony. I believe this might make a difference and she would be allowed to cook there.

The issue is he is in a multi story building where a grill fire on his patio can spread to the floors above him. This has been an issue in fire regulations nationwide for the last 20 years.
JoeN6 (Virginia)
Posts: 94
Posted:
BBQ grills 16’ away from the building . Works for the ground floor patio owner . Electric grills are ok on patios or balconies. The fatty steak or pork chops are going to make flames any so . Go figure …..

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